Tyrone v Down - Sun 18th May, Omagh

[orangeman]

It has been obvious that Mickey has been reluctant to bring through minors straight away, whereas over the past few years Dublin have shown the other way to do it and brought good minors into the team straight away.

My granda used to say if you're good enough, you're old enough.

How did he get on managing Tyrone?

Sacked for playing young cubs.

[Fuzzman]

I have to laugh at some lads with the high and mighty attitude saying why are ye still chatting for 41 pages. Je4u$ lads it's a discussion forum where the emphasis is on discussion and sharing points and ideas. If you don't like it then don't read it and stop whinging.

I'm glad people can have a "Frank" discussion about this topic without getting accused of being on a witch hunt for Harte's head.
My biggest issue with Mickey these days is that to me (mainly from reading his books) he seemed to be a great man manager and knew that some players (like Mugsy) needed an arm around the shoulder and not a tough line attitude whereas others did. He kinda grew up as a manager with the 08 minor team and so probably had a lot of respect for them from an early stage.
It seems to me (but of course I'm not in the inside circle) that there is much more regimental structure in place now where Mickey isn't so forthcoming in his openness with the players and good communication isn't encouraged. From the outside it almost seems quite like a dictatorship mood and as an Everton fan I know what fear David Moyes brought to Everton and then to Man U

I just think Mickey has changed a lot in the last few years and is it any wonder. I think whilst he did well with the team last year despite playing a very negative style I think so far this year we've seen some very strange decisions and no real sign of trying to sow up a wide open defence.
Some players are good enough to play anywhere and chop and change but I think most players need stability from match to match and too many don't know themselves where is their best position cos we rarely see them play there two games in a row.
With the exception of maybe Colm Cavanagh and maybe McCurry I can't think of another player who regularly plays in the same position all the time. Is this good for the team and good for the players? Personally I think not but then again I've not won 3 AIs.

[Redhand Santa]

I remember back in March I said I couldn't believe that there were rumblings against Mickey Harte after his accomplishments in Tyrone. I was assured that this was not aimed at Mickey, it was all grand and people were just making fair analysis of the team. I think the posts since (and immediately before) Sunday prove that I was close to the mark back then. I still can't believe it to be honest, but if ye are intent on running him out of town, I think ye better be careful of what you wish for.

Thats all fine coming from outside the county. I understand outside looking in it may be hard for people to understand but there is a growing sense of frustration within Tyrone at Mickeys tenure which extends to how clubs are treated and the weakness of the county board when dealing with Mickeys demands. These things can be swept under the carpet providing the county team is performing. Most people in GAA circles in the county were shocked at the team selection for sunday. Mickey helped deliver 3 AI's with exceptional talent available to him.
There is and has been a rich vain of talent in the county and the current management team has failed to deliver any return for now going on 6 years. How long would this situation be tolerated in any other county Dublin,Cork, Kerry, Mayo ?

The issue with clubs is one the that some people in Tyrone keep throwing at Harte. As I've pointed out before in my opinion he's as reasonable if not more reasonable when it come's to county players than the average county manager. After Tyrone got knocked out in the league the players plaed with their clubs every week except for the week before the championship. They're due to play in the club championships next week which if Tyrone win on Saturday is just 2 weeks before the first round in Ulster. The county players will play 10 league games with their clubs plus championship and playoffs.

I think this attitude compares well to other top counties like Dublin and Mayo. Can anyone confirm? In Donegal they've games have been called of for training weeks and preparation for league finals. In Armagh county players haven't been allowed to play as far as I know for 4 or 5 weeks before the Cavan game.

As I say this is just one of the things thrown at Harte which in my opinion is unfair. I'd like to see clubs treated better but the problem is a national one and trying to compete with other counties and what they do as opposed to something Harte is doing wrong.

[Redhand Santa]

I also think a lot of Tyrone posters have become deluded from our 3 All Ireland wins and feel like we should be winning All Irelands every couple of years. We haven't won an All Ireland since 08 because we haven't been good enough.

People kept saying that after that win we were too slow to bring in new players but in my opinion they weren't there or ready to come in. That has been proven in the years after since the big name players retired. When a young player has showed promise Harte has never had an issue throwing them in - look at the likes of Harte, Mulgrew, McCurry etc.

Our track record at u21 level in recent years has been poor and Harte in my opinion has did a good job keeping us consistently as a top 8 team and challenging the top 5. I think we could have the potential to push on another bit but its down to the younger players really stepping up now.

The over the top reaction to a poor first round performance in a game that we didn't actually lose is comical. I'm very tempted to look back and pull out a few quotes from after the 08 first round game as I bet many are similar to now. Even if you look back to 03 I think Harte was getting plenty of stick after the Derry draw.

Time for Tyrone people to support the management and team in the middle of the championship instead of over the top criticism.

[BennyHarp]

I also think a lot of Tyrone posters have become deluded from our 3 All Ireland wins and feel like we should be winning All Irelands every couple of years. We haven't won an All Ireland since 08 because we haven't been good enough.

People kept saying that after that win we were too slow to bring in new players but in my opinion they weren't there or ready to come in. That has been proven in the years after since the big name players retired. When a young player has showed promise Harte has never had an issue throwing them in - look at the likes of Harte, Mulgrew, McCurry etc.

Our track record at u21 level in recent years has been poor and Harte in my opinion has did a good job keeping us consistently as a top 8 team and challenging the top 5. I think we could have the potential to push on another bit but its down to the younger players really stepping up now.

The over the top reaction to a poor first round performance in a game that we didn't actually lose is comical. I'm very tempted to look back and pull out a few quotes from after the 08 first round game as I bet many are similar to now. Even if you look back to 03 I think Harte was getting plenty of stick after the Derry draw.

Time for Tyrone people to support the management and team in the middle of the championship instead of over the top criticism.

+1 Well said!

[trileacman]

To be fair not many inside the county are criticising Harte or saying he needs to go. It's alot of hot air from lads from counties that have been shitter than us for the last 10 years. I wouldn't pay much heed to a keyboard warrior from a GAA wasteland.

[SkillfulBill]

I also think a lot of Tyrone posters have become deluded from our 3 All Ireland wins and feel like we should be winning All Irelands every couple of years. We haven't won an All Ireland since 08 because we haven't been good enough.

People kept saying that after that win we were too slow to bring in new players but in my opinion they weren't there or ready to come in. That has been proven in the years after since the big name players retired. When a young player has showed promise Harte has never had an issue throwing them in - look at the likes of Harte, Mulgrew, McCurry etc.

Our track record at u21 level in recent years has been poor and Harte in my opinion has did a good job keeping us consistently as a top 8 team and challenging the top 5. I think we could have the potential to push on another bit but its down to the younger players really stepping up now.

The over the top reaction to a poor first round performance in a game that we didn't actually lose is comical. I'm very tempted to look back and pull out a few quotes from after the 08 first round game as I bet many are similar to now. Even if you look back to 03 I think Harte was getting plenty of stick after the Derry draw.

Time for Tyrone people to support the management and team in the middle of the championship instead of over the top criticism.

I can tell you what was truely comical is Mickey's team selection on Sunday. Nothing to do with a manager keeping tyrone in top 8 or bringing young players in or anything other than reckless and stupid. It is the mark of a manager who appears to have lost sight of things. What was he trying to prove? that he could pick players out of sorts and out of position and still go on to beat a very average Down side. If any other manager had put out a side of a similar nature they would be torn apart on here but because it was Mickey Harte then it can be excused because he has kept us in the top 8. Tyrone where a top 8-10 teams in the country under Art McCrory so i dont see it as any achievement that we have been allowed to fall back into the chasing pack.

[Walter Cronc]

To be fair not many inside the county are criticising Harte or saying he needs to go. It's alot of hot air from lads from counties that have been shitter than us for the last 10 years. I wouldn't pay much heed to a keyboard warrior from a GAA wasteland.

Yes because the GAA started in 2003. Aren't you an opinionated keyboard warrior from a Rugby "wasteland"...

[barelegs]

The problem with Mickey is that he didn't know when to get out. The criticism of Mickey Harte on here now isn't anything new. I've been hearing it for the past two years. What's changed now is that the Down game epitomised the problems with Tyrone over the past 5 years- and nothing seems to change.

Tyrone fans (myself included) have been more than happy to give Mickey and his backroom team time to bed new players in. The difference is that it's now 2014. Tyrone were in an All Ireland semi-final last year. They had shown that they could compete with the top couple of teams in the country. That upward trajectory seems to have stalled this year, truth be told at the minute Tyrone look like they've gone backwards.

Against Down, having had 12 games, 5 McKenna Cup and 7 League games,  to come up with a settled team, Mickey picked an experimental line up. At no stage did Tyrone reach championship pace with what was truth be told a fairly average Down team. In fact when Down raised the tempo Tyrone looked lost. Defensively it's been clear for a couple of years that problems exist and next to nothing has been done to remedy it. On the line it was clear things were going against Tyrone but it took Down taking a two point lead before changes were made. A win on Sunday would have papered over cracks.

To clarify issues with  team selection:

Barry Tierney (who Mickey, either through incompetence or choice, left on for 68 minutes in Killarney to get a roasting- something which helped neither Tierney nor the team) appeared in a Tyrone team for the first time since the Kerry game. Now I'm not criticising picking Barry Tierney, I like the fella, but he hadn't played a game with Tyrone since Killarney. Surely it would have made sense to give him some game time in the league after that to get some sort of confidence back into his play?

Danny McBride- Again I've no problem with Danny but had he been given a run of games (we had 12 after all) to settle into the full back role before Sunday? Surely that would have helped?

Matthew Donnelly- One of Tyrone's genuinely top class performers hasn't been given a settled position. He just seemed to be settling into full foward when he was moved to centre half back. He's being moved around to fill gaps. Give the man a position and let him play.

Ciaran McGinley- a defender and one who performed well last year at wing back is now being asked to play at wing forward, again out of position. Could he not have been left where he was?

Niall McKenna- during the league played at midfield and briefly at wing forward. Come the championship given his first start at full foward. Why not give him games there prior to Sunday?

Sean Cavanagh- one of the best midfielders of recent years, Player of the Year at full foward- given the centre half forward role on Sunday having played almost exclusively at midfield over the last couple of seasons.

These were just the fairly obvious problems with Sunday's team even before Tyrone played. There are long-standing issues that Tyrone having addressed and have almost ignored.


Man marking corner back- Tyrone still haven't found themselves one. It seems to be the management's policy that the best way to find one isn't to pick someone who's playing as a man marker for their club, rather to try and convert a natural half back into a corner back.

Where to use Peter Harte- He's been a regular fixture in the team from 2011 and on his day can be among the best in the country but no position has been found for him yet. He's too defensively lax to be playing in defence.

Find another 11- Brian McGuigan's don't grow on trees and that's accepted. But nobody has been given an extended run at 11 to try and settle into the position.

For a county of Tyrone's size and resources, I don't think it's unreasonable to be expecting to be competing at the highest level. We should be striving to win All Irelands and not saying, "wasn't it great back in the 2000s". Tyrone have been producing players of a high enough standard but in recent years they haven't been getting enough out of them. Donegal won an All Ireland two years ago. I don't think their players are any better than anything Tyrone have at their disposal.

There are too many people willing to make excuses and put things off to next year. I'm prepared to give Mickey time but he really needs to start getting a settled team

[BarryBreensBandage]

But there has to be a reason for the demise of great teams - As AZ and a couple of others have said, it happened to a lot of different managers - Pete McGrath, Billy Morgan, Sean Boylan, even Micko in the late eighties.

And the reason is, IMO, is how do you replace players that win All Irelands?

How could Down ever hoped to have replaced the forwared line containing Carr, Blaney, Mason, Linden & McCartan?

These players come along once in a lifetime - How do you replace Brian Dooher?

I remember wee Pete getting a lot of stick regarding holding on too long to old hands and I agreed with it.
In hindsight, who was going to come in and do a better job than, say, DJ or Barry Breen?! And I know for a fact the majority of them believed they had another AI in them.

I would agree with the Tyrone followers that Mickey makes strange decisions, but, believe me, changing the man does not mean an upturn in fortunes! And as a Down man I would give anything to have 2 Ulster Championships since 2008.

All teams go through it - Armagh can now breathe air as it cant get any worse for them, Down trundle along, in mediocrity, with Meath & Galway.

Hopefully this is the year we win the Ulster we require!

[rrhf]

Its called Bismarcks Prussian Syndrome.

[Redhand Santa]

The problem with Mickey is that he didn't know when to get out. The criticism of Mickey Harte on here now isn't anything new. I've been hearing it for the past two years. What's changed now is that the Down game epitomised the problems with Tyrone over the past 5 years- and nothing seems to change.

Tyrone fans (myself included) have been more than happy to give Mickey and his backroom team time to bed new players in. The difference is that it's now 2014. Tyrone were in an All Ireland semi-final last year. They had shown that they could compete with the top couple of teams in the country. That upward trajectory seems to have stalled this year, truth be told at the minute Tyrone look like they've gone backwards.

Against Down, having had 12 games, 5 McKenna Cup and 7 League games,  to come up with a settled team, Mickey picked an experimental line up. At no stage did Tyrone reach championship pace with what was truth be told a fairly average Down team. In fact when Down raised the tempo Tyrone looked lost. Defensively it's been clear for a couple of years that problems exist and next to nothing has been done to remedy it. On the line it was clear things were going against Tyrone but it took Down taking a two point lead before changes were made. A win on Sunday would have papered over cracks.

To clarify issues with  team selection:

Barry Tierney (who Mickey, either through incompetence or choice, left on for 68 minutes in Killarney to get a roasting- something which helped neither Tierney nor the team) appeared in a Tyrone team for the first time since the Kerry game. Now I'm not criticising picking Barry Tierney, I like the fella, but he hadn't played a game with Tyrone since Killarney. Surely it would have made sense to give him some game time in the league after that to get some sort of confidence back into his play?

Danny McBride- Again I've no problem with Danny but had he been given a run of games (we had 12 after all) to settle into the full back role before Sunday? Surely that would have helped?

Matthew Donnelly- One of Tyrone's genuinely top class performers hasn't been given a settled position. He just seemed to be settling into full foward when he was moved to centre half back. He's being moved around to fill gaps. Give the man a position and let him play.

Ciaran McGinley- a defender and one who performed well last year at wing back is now being asked to play at wing forward, again out of position. Could he not have been left where he was?

Niall McKenna- during the league played at midfield and briefly at wing forward. Come the championship given his first start at full foward. Why not give him games there prior to Sunday?

Sean Cavanagh- one of the best midfielders of recent years, Player of the Year at full foward- given the centre half forward role on Sunday having played almost exclusively at midfield over the last couple of seasons.

These were just the fairly obvious problems with Sunday's team even before Tyrone played. There are long-standing issues that Tyrone having addressed and have almost ignored.


Man marking corner back- Tyrone still haven't found themselves one. It seems to be the management's policy that the best way to find one isn't to pick someone who's playing as a man marker for their club, rather to try and convert a natural half back into a corner back.

Where to use Peter Harte- He's been a regular fixture in the team from 2011 and on his day can be among the best in the country but no position has been found for him yet. He's too defensively lax to be playing in defence.

Find another 11- Brian McGuigan's don't grow on trees and that's accepted. But nobody has been given an extended run at 11 to try and settle into the position.

For a county of Tyrone's size and resources, I don't think it's unreasonable to be expecting to be competing at the highest level. We should be striving to win All Irelands and not saying, "wasn't it great back in the 2000s". Tyrone have been producing players of a high enough standard but in recent years they haven't been getting enough out of them. Donegal won an All Ireland two years ago. I don't think their players are any better than anything Tyrone have at their disposal.

There are too many people willing to make excuses and put things off to next year. I'm prepared to give Mickey time but he really needs to start getting a settled team

No its nothing new it started in 2003 at the start of the championship and is still continuing despite winning 3 All Irelands and 4 ulster titles and consistently getting to at least the quarter finals in the All Ireland. It reached a peak in 08 but stopped for a while after the 3rd All Ireland but has slowly built up since not winning the All Ireland. In my opinion no manager would have delivered an All Ireland since 08 and certainly not one from Tyrone.

I don't think everything he does is perfect and was unhappy with the selection last week myself. I also couldn't understand why he chose to play the likes of Tierney after not seeing him from the Kerry game. I'm sure he had reasons for his selections (for example McNamee his first choice was injured and hence the McBride selection) and I'm prepared to trust the man.

You have said we have regressed from last year but I don't think that can be judged until after the championship. Last year we posted a very disappointing performnace up in Donegal and still went on to reach the semi's. We have started the championship under Harte slowly a lot of years and without a fully settled side (albeit not as many changes as this year) so hopefully things will improve as time goes on.

I think there'll be an improvment come Saturday night and hope plenty of our so called supporters come out to support the team rather than sitting at home complaining on the internet.

[2 many steps]

I think there'll be an improvment come Saturday night and hope plenty of our so called supporters come out to support the team rather than sitting at home complaining on the internet.
[/quote]I agree with this and even if tyrone were to be lose on saturday,it would provide more matches for younger players to prove themselves.Plenty of time for this discussion off season.

[Whitnail]

Great drama on Sunday either way. Overall I think there maybe 1, at most 2 bad games in the Ulster championship every year and nobody ever knows whose gonna win it (reflected in bookmaker's odds). It's a rat rac as always and the bloody  preliminary round hasn't even been settled yet.
I think whoever looses can still  make a decent go of it in the back door, although in fairness it's am energy sapping summer going that route.

[EC Unique]

To be fair not many inside the county are criticising Harte or saying he needs to go. It's alot of hot air from lads from counties that have been shitter than us for the last 10 years. I wouldn't pay much heed to a keyboard warrior from a GAA wasteland.

Yes because the GAA started in 2003. Aren't you an opinionated keyboard warrior from a Rugby "wasteland"...

. Can't believe he took the bait.