The Heineken Cup Thread

[NAG1]

Great result for Ulster. At half time we were lucky to be still in the match, but second half was much more even. Humphries was having a mare, but still managed to come up with a try. Fair play.

Can't remember ever seeing so may visiting fans at Ravenhill. Clermont fans virtually took over the stand. The match wasn't a sell out, so makes me wonder what the attendance would've been had the French stayed at home.

Stand up for the Ulstermen! 

It not apathy, its because Rugby has a minority following in the north. The are only a certain number of public school boys to go around so maybe that's why the crowds are down. Has no impact in the wider society, its a very take it or leave it kind of sport for the masses.

[Dinny Breen]

Just a thought on the signifigance of the Munster performance. Northampton are one of the favourites for the Heineken Cup. Munster had just 4 starters off the European Cup winning team of 2008. They seem to be managing the transition to a new team without turning to shit.

They have newer younger players like O Mahony, Ronan, Donacha Ryan, Varley Murray, Barnes, Hurley and Murphy all started tonight. Earls and Felix Jones are young guys who would have played if fit. Are any of them any good or elite? Maybe only murray might be close to a top level player but scrum half might be the most important position on the pitch.

Wallace and Quinlan were not there. Leamy and O Callaghan were droppped to make way for some of these players and Flannery could return to strengthen the playing resources. It is just a good sign that change and progress are being made at the same time with good young Irish players.

Niall Ronan is 29, Donnacha Ryan is 28, Johne Murphy is 27, Denis Hurley is 27, Damien Varley is 28. Hardly young players now are they?

That in a nutshell is Munster's problem, under Declan Kindey they completely neglected their underage development, Connacht have surpassed them on that level. McGahan is turning that around but comes in from awful criticism from those Munster fans who believe that Munster have some sort of sense of self-entitlement up there with the Toulouses  and Leicesters of this world. I think he is doing a good job, he has appointed Anthony Foley as forwards coach and now of course the Munster legend Foley is getting all the praise for turning things around up front and is been touted as heir apparent to McGahan's job.

Munster and Leinster showed their European experience to get something out of games they should have lost, The Saints and Montpelier were the better sides, abject refereeing, the last Leinster penalty was never a penalty for example and lack of composure did it in for them.

Ulster I thought were the most impressive province this weekend although I'd say Butch James hates coming to this island at this stage. One player to catch my eye was Eoin Griffin, looked the most impressive Irish 13 this weekend.

Still only the 1st game, lot of rugby to played yet, good to have it back.

They are yougnger generally. It is just for years we were lead to beleive that when Leamy Wallace and Quinlan and Strings adn Flans and O Callaghan were gone Munster would be completely uncompetitive

Sorry but their is no comparison between those group of players and interestingly O'Mahony and Murray who have big futures were developed by McGahan, the others are just solid professionals, Munster will pay a price for not building on their HEC success, it was  severely neglected.  Just look at the Irish underage teams for the last 4/5 years completely dominated by Leinster and Ulster with a good sprinkling of Connacht talent. The only Munster player you can confidently predict to be in the Irish team in four years is Murray and even will have Luke McGrath (he's a special un') to contend with. I admire your optimism but Munster are not in a good place looking down the short-term road.

[Capt Pat]

But Munster have something special according to Donal Lenihan in D'examiner today. My point is and it applies to the Irish and Leinster rugby teams too. That we had a golden generation who got to the quarterfinals of a world cup twice and failed another time but it just seems to be continuing. It is not really taking a break. It is hard to prove you are a top level player when you are not consistently given a chance in the big games. Eventually for Munster it had to happen and what do you know but the sky didn't fall in on our heads. I know Niall Ronan is no Richie McCaw and Coughlan is no Harinordiquay but Munster have not gone over the edge they are still there at the top level. That is my point.

Just a thought on the signifigance of the Munster performance. Northampton are one of the favourites for the Heineken Cup. Munster had just 4 starters off the European Cup winning team of 2008. They seem to be managing the transition to a new team without turning to shit.

They have newer younger players like O Mahony, Ronan, Donacha Ryan, Varley Murray, Barnes, Hurley and Murphy all started tonight. Earls and Felix Jones are young guys who would have played if fit. Are any of them any good or elite? Maybe only murray might be close to a top level player but scrum half might be the most important position on the pitch.

Wallace and Quinlan were not there. Leamy and O Callaghan were droppped to make way for some of these players and Flannery could return to strengthen the playing resources. It is just a good sign that change and progress are being made at the same time with good young Irish players.

Niall Ronan is 29, Donnacha Ryan is 28, Johne Murphy is 27, Denis Hurley is 27, Damien Varley is 28. Hardly young players now are they?

That in a nutshell is Munster's problem, under Declan Kindey they completely neglected their underage development, Connacht have surpassed them on that level. McGahan is turning that around but comes in from awful criticism from those Munster fans who believe that Munster have some sort of sense of self-entitlement up there with the Toulouses  and Leicesters of this world. I think he is doing a good job, he has appointed Anthony Foley as forwards coach and now of course the Munster legend Foley is getting all the praise for turning things around up front and is been touted as heir apparent to McGahan's job.

Munster and Leinster showed their European experience to get something out of games they should have lost, The Saints and Montpelier were the better sides, abject refereeing, the last Leinster penalty was never a penalty for example and lack of composure did it in for them.

Ulster I thought were the most impressive province this weekend although I'd say Butch James hates coming to this island at this stage. One player to catch my eye was Eoin Griffin, looked the most impressive Irish 13 this weekend.

Still only the 1st game, lot of rugby to played yet, good to have it back.

They are yougnger generally. It is just for years we were lead to beleive that when Leamy Wallace and Quinlan and Strings adn Flans and O Callaghan were gone Munster would be completely uncompetitive

Sorry but their is no comparison between those group of players and interestingly O'Mahony and Murray who have big futures were developed by McGahan, the others are just solid professionals, Munster will pay a price for not building on their HEC success, it was  severely neglected.  Just look at the Irish underage teams for the last 4/5 years completely dominated by Leinster and Ulster with a good sprinkling of Connacht talent. The only Munster player you can confidently predict to be in the Irish team in four years is Murray and even will have Luke McGrath (he's a special un') to contend with. I admire your optimism but Munster are not in a good place looking down the short-term road.

[Hoof Hearted]

Irish teams fixtures for this week :-

Castres v Munster (Sat)
Connacht v Toulouse (Sat)
Leicester v Ulster (Sat)
Leinster v Glasgow (Sun)

3 very tough away games and a relatively easier game for the champions in Dublin.

[Myles Na G.]

Great result for Ulster. At half time we were lucky to be still in the match, but second half was much more even. Humphries was having a mare, but still managed to come up with a try. Fair play.

Can't remember ever seeing so may visiting fans at Ravenhill. Clermont fans virtually took over the stand. The match wasn't a sell out, so makes me wonder what the attendance would've been had the French stayed at home.

Stand up for the Ulstermen! 

It not apathy, its because Rugby has a minority following in the north. The are only a certain number of public school boys to go around so maybe that's why the crowds are down. Has no impact in the wider society, its a very take it or leave it kind of sport for the masses.

If you'd said grammar school boys you might've got away with that without making yourself look like a total tit.

[whitegoodman]

Great result for Ulster. At half time we were lucky to be still in the match, but second half was much more even. Humphries was having a mare, but still managed to come up with a try. Fair play.

Can't remember ever seeing so may visiting fans at Ravenhill. Clermont fans virtually took over the stand. The match wasn't a sell out, so makes me wonder what the attendance would've been had the French stayed at home.

Stand up for the Ulstermen! 

It not apathy, its because Rugby has a minority following in the north. The are only a certain number of public school boys to go around so maybe that's why the crowds are down. Has no impact in the wider society, its a very take it or leave it kind of sport for the masses.

If you'd said grammar school boys you might've got away with that without making yourself look like a total tit.

+1

[NAG1]

List of public/ independent schools for example in Belfast alone;
BRA
RBAI
Campbell College
Methody
Victoria College

Are you seeing the correlation? Outside of this where is the power base of Ulster Rugby? As I said it has little of no impact outside of this Belfast centric media bubble.

[Dinny Breen]

But Munster have something special according to Donal Lenihan in D'examiner today. My point is and it applies to the Irish and Leinster rugby teams too. That we had a golden generation who got to the quarterfinals of a world cup twice and failed another time but it just seems to be continuing. It is not really taking a break. It is hard to prove you are a top level player when you are not consistently given a chance in the big games. Eventually for Munster it had to happen and what do you know but the sky didn't fall in on our heads. I know Niall Ronan is no Richie McCaw and Coughlan is no Harinordiquay but Munster have not gone over the edge they are still there at the top level. That is my point.

You do realise that Donal Lenihan is chairman of the Munster Academy, he's hardly going to say anything different. Munster are no longer at the top table and with BOD and Hines I can't see Leinster doing much this year.

[Denn Forever]

Just a question on Connaught, where is the blond speed merchant they used to have on the wing?  Was he poached by a bigger team or did he just change his hair colour?

[muppet]

Just a question on Connaught, where is the blond speed merchant they used to have on the wing?  Was he poached by a bigger team or did he just change his hair colour?

He parked his car at Leinster reserves.

[Donnellys Hollow]

Just a question on Connaught, where is the blond speed merchant they used to have on the wing?  Was he poached by a bigger team or did he just change his hair colour?

He parked his car at Leinster reserves.

Not even in the HC squad along with Hagan I think? Surely the IRFU should have kept them both at Connacht?

Carr should tog out for Ardclough and try to get a place in the Kildare forward line for next summer.

[Capt Pat]

Just a question on Connaught, where is the blond speed merchant they used to have on the wing?  Was he poached by a bigger team or did he just change his hair colour?

He parked his car at Leinster reserves.

Not even in the HC squad along with Hagan I think? Surely the IRFU should have kept them both at Connacht?

Carr should tog out for Ardclough and try to get a place in the Kildare forward line for next summer.

That situation is a bit of a mess. 2 of our best prospects not getting any meaningful game time that is necessary to improve. I think they left Connach like a bad smell because when they go nowhere near the world cup training squad.

[Hoof Hearted]

Any additions/ommissons from this little lot from planetrugby.com




Team of Round 1


15 Clément Poitrenaud (Toulouse) - We begin with one of the toughest calls as Poitrenaud and Ben Foden stood out. Foden created the try for Chris Ashton, but for his ability to draw Gloucester defenders and create something from nothing, the Toulouse man gets our nod.


14 Doug Howlett (Munster) - Anyone who thought he and Munster were over the hill were made to eat their words on Saturday. Howlett rolled back the years to prove he still has plenty of juice left in the tank for games to come. His try at the end of the first-half was key.


13 Owen Farrell (Saracens) - He has already had a glowing reference from former Springbok captain John Smit and why shouldn't he. Farrell is growing game by game and showed a great deal in the number thirteen jersey against an improved Treviso outfit. He amassed 22 points in Round One and seems to be thriving outside Charlie Hodgson.


12 James Downey (Northampton) - Another showing that has one scratching his head as to why he is not in the Ireland shake-up. Downey was excellent in Limerick and arguably raised his effort to a new level against his former employers. However, the powerful inside centre will be disappointed that his try ultimately proved fruitless in the result on Saturday.


11 Iain Balshaw (Biarritz) - The only player in the opening Heineken Cup weekend to claim a brace of tries was the former England wing. Balshaw brought Biarritz back from the brink and in fact they can't be downhearted by leaving Liberty Stadium with a losing bonus-point.


10 Ronan O'Gara (Munster) - It was a toss-up between Francois Trinh-Duc, Dan Biggar and Munster's favourite son. O'Gara used all of his knowledge of the Thomond Park pitch as he pushed and probed the hosts around the field and just when Munster needed the ERC Best Player of the last 15 years, O'Gara stood up to knock over a winning drop against the wind.


9 Kahn Fotuali'i (Ospreys) - While Luke Burgess enjoyed an impressive debut for Toulouse, warming Stade Ernest Wallon with his physical approach that was Byron Kelleher-esque, there was a certain Samoan causing a stir in Swansea. Fotuali'i set up the Ospreys' only try and looked good alongside the also impressive Dan Biggar at half-back. Excellent signing.


8 Ernst Joubert (Saracens) - It was tough to only pick one of the Montpellier back-row as Masi Matadigo and Fulgence Ouedraogo put in good shifts together with 'Gorgodzilla'. Gone are the days though of Treviso being a walkover and that is why Joubert gets in the mix.


7 Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier) - The Georgian forward was the first name down on the teamsheet after an heroic 80 minutes for Montpol. He started out at number seven and then shifted to eight, keeping Sean O'Brien uncharacteristically quiet at Stade Yves du Manoir.


6 Peter O'Mahony (Munster) - Who? Apparently he is the next big thing at Munster and proved just that in his man-of-the-match performance. The flank, who may not have started if the hosts were injury-free, was tireless in the loose and looks to have a very bright future.


5 Paul Tito (Cardiff Blues) - Emerging from the sidelines for James Down early into their away victory in Paris, former captain Tito was superb at lock, earning high praise from his coaches and team-mates alike. Cardiff Blues have now given themselves every chance.


4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton) - Yet another athletic showing from the England lock as he covered ample ground and made countless tackles, one of which stood out as he tracked across the line to foil an overlap. Saints should not be written off topping this Pool.


3 Taufa'ao Filise (Cardiff Blues) - A try for the tighthead sees him edge out Geoff Cross in this spot. Winning at Racing is no mean feat and the Welsh have done their qualification hopes a power of good, particularly as London Irish fell at home to Edinburgh.


2 Agustin Creevy (Montpellier) - Darren Dawiduik got the better of Gary Botha at Stade Ernest Wallon with an effective yet unflashy showing. However, Montpol's pack deserved more than just the solitary spot and that is why the industrious Argentine forces his way in.


1 Soane Tonga'uiha (Northampton) - Once again we witnessed the immense power of the Saints front-row as Munster found themselves wanting in many a scrum. Alongside Dylan Hartley and Brian Mujati, Tonga'uiha was strong both in the set-piece and around the field.

[GaillimhIarthair]

Just a question on Connaught, where is the blond speed merchant they used to have on the wing?  Was he poached by a bigger team or did he just change his hair colour?

He parked his car at Leinster reserves.

Not even in the HC squad along with Hagan I think? Surely the IRFU should have kept them both at Connacht?

Carr should tog out for Ardclough and try to get a place in the Kildare forward line for next summer.

That situation is a bit of a mess. 2 of our best prospects not getting any meaningful game time that is necessary to improve. I think they left Connach like a bad smell because when they go nowhere near the world cup training squad.

Other than Cronin at Leinster and to a much lesser extent, Keatley at Munster, I cannot see any of the others getting too many opportunities.  Jamie Hagan has a lot of potential IMO, but potential it will remain until he gets a decent run in the Leinster side and that doesnt look like happening any time soon.  They should have at least stayed with Connacht for another season as all of them were 1st choice players down here and they would be getting massive exposure in the HCup.  Right now they are no better off than last year from a playing perspective as it will be just bit part roles in the Rabo. 

[screenexile]

Any additions/ommissons from this little lot from planetrugby.com




Team of Round 1


15 Clément Poitrenaud (Toulouse) - We begin with one of the toughest calls as Poitrenaud and Ben Foden stood out. Foden created the try for Chris Ashton, but for his ability to draw Gloucester defenders and create something from nothing, the Toulouse man gets our nod.


14 Doug Howlett (Munster) - Anyone who thought he and Munster were over the hill were made to eat their words on Saturday. Howlett rolled back the years to prove he still has plenty of juice left in the tank for games to come. His try at the end of the first-half was key.


13 Owen Farrell (Saracens) - He has already had a glowing reference from former Springbok captain John Smit and why shouldn't he. Farrell is growing game by game and showed a great deal in the number thirteen jersey against an improved Treviso outfit. He amassed 22 points in Round One and seems to be thriving outside Charlie Hodgson.


12 James Downey (Northampton) - Another showing that has one scratching his head as to why he is not in the Ireland shake-up. Downey was excellent in Limerick and arguably raised his effort to a new level against his former employers. However, the powerful inside centre will be disappointed that his try ultimately proved fruitless in the result on Saturday.


11 Iain Balshaw (Biarritz) - The only player in the opening Heineken Cup weekend to claim a brace of tries was the former England wing. Balshaw brought Biarritz back from the brink and in fact they can't be downhearted by leaving Liberty Stadium with a losing bonus-point.


10 Ronan O'Gara (Munster) - It was a toss-up between Francois Trinh-Duc, Dan Biggar and Munster's favourite son. O'Gara used all of his knowledge of the Thomond Park pitch as he pushed and probed the hosts around the field and just when Munster needed the ERC Best Player of the last 15 years, O'Gara stood up to knock over a winning drop against the wind.


9 Kahn Fotuali'i (Ospreys) - While Luke Burgess enjoyed an impressive debut for Toulouse, warming Stade Ernest Wallon with his physical approach that was Byron Kelleher-esque, there was a certain Samoan causing a stir in Swansea. Fotuali'i set up the Ospreys' only try and looked good alongside the also impressive Dan Biggar at half-back. Excellent signing.


8 Ernst Joubert (Saracens) - It was tough to only pick one of the Montpellier back-row as Masi Matadigo and Fulgence Ouedraogo put in good shifts together with 'Gorgodzilla'. Gone are the days though of Treviso being a walkover and that is why Joubert gets in the mix.


7 Mamuka Gorgodze (Montpellier) - The Georgian forward was the first name down on the teamsheet after an heroic 80 minutes for Montpol. He started out at number seven and then shifted to eight, keeping Sean O'Brien uncharacteristically quiet at Stade Yves du Manoir.


6 Peter O'Mahony (Munster) - Who? Apparently he is the next big thing at Munster and proved just that in his man-of-the-match performance. The flank, who may not have started if the hosts were injury-free, was tireless in the loose and looks to have a very bright future.


5 Paul Tito (Cardiff Blues) - Emerging from the sidelines for James Down early into their away victory in Paris, former captain Tito was superb at lock, earning high praise from his coaches and team-mates alike. Cardiff Blues have now given themselves every chance.


4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton) - Yet another athletic showing from the England lock as he covered ample ground and made countless tackles, one of which stood out as he tracked across the line to foil an overlap. Saints should not be written off topping this Pool.


3 Taufa'ao Filise (Cardiff Blues) - A try for the tighthead sees him edge out Geoff Cross in this spot. Winning at Racing is no mean feat and the Welsh have done their qualification hopes a power of good, particularly as London Irish fell at home to Edinburgh.


2 Agustin Creevy (Montpellier) - Darren Dawiduik got the better of Gary Botha at Stade Ernest Wallon with an effective yet unflashy showing. However, Montpol's pack deserved more than just the solitary spot and that is why the industrious Argentine forces his way in.


1 Soane Tonga'uiha (Northampton) - Once again we witnessed the immense power of the Saints front-row as Munster found themselves wanting in many a scrum. Alongside Dylan Hartley and Brian Mujati, Tonga'uiha was strong both in the set-piece and around the field.

James Downey is Irish??!! WTF?!! How in God's name did we go to a World Cup with D'arcy and James Downey is Irish... Jesus Wept!