Great Hurling Championship but.........

[From the Bunker]

..........Provincial winners gained no advantage over Provincal losers as to progression in AI competition.
..........The Semple gate affair, handled terribly. Amateur players deserve better.
..........Cork could have won an AI having lost two games.
..........Kilkenny have not played a Munster team.
.........Waterford played 5 championship games this year yet only met two teams.
.........No one outside of the Big 8 made the breakthrough.
.........Limerick are in the final having played no one outside of Munster.
.........Wexford got to a semi-final and distorted their standing.
.........League games proved to be a mess with Laois, Dublin, Antrim and Offaly getting hidings.
........The doubling up of replays of quarterfinals with Semifinals to get 45 euro for tickets where often the other game was the other code.

Kilkenny and Cork win AIs. We have 4/6 others who can pretend. And we have 24 others who are just so far off of the mark it is not funny. The Ring and Rickard Cups have tried to address the problem in weaker counties but this has been nearly impossible to grade and the finals just end up one sided. Yes we got some good games but, there seemed to be a case of rearranging the deck chairs to the Championship. You lose here you go into a league Basis, it just seems to be about giving you chances and chances to qualify for the quarters. then again when you have a championship with 8 teams i suppose you have to do that. So much for it being called an "ALL" Ireland title.

[Punxsutawney Fergal]

It's not KK fault that they didn't meet a Munster side, If Tipp had of bet Wexford and went on to get tanked by KK would we all be complaining?

Granted Wexford I admit are in a dire state but I argue the point that KK would have 10 points on every other county in the Championship.

Cork have slipped back and with the loss of some key players due to retirement will slip back further.

Waterford - same as Cork but seem to have no underage players

Galway, same old failings - show us signs but don't deliver

Clare - I can't see them making any sort of impact on the championship for a long time.

Offaly - Similar to Clare.

Dublin - Plenty of promise, if they can bridge to gap between underage and senior should be Leinsters second best in the next 2 to 3 years

Wexford - You can't win games with 4 forwards who are Christy Ring standard, Will stumble along as Leinsters second best until Dublin pass them out

Tipp - Right I'm no fan of Tipp, yet I do believe that with a major change in players and the county boards mentality they are the best equipped to challange KK. Tipp have an Embarrassment of riches in underage. Last year a very good U21 side along with an excellent Minor side, don't get me started on this years minor team - What a team

Limerick - Well, I've been a critic but fair play to them for getting to the All-Ireland final, should they pull off a major shock (not impossible, Greece did win Euro 2004) I still think they are not going to be in this position next year or the year after.

Antrim - Same as Galway need would benefit from a major overhaul of the current structure

[Pull Hard Hes No Relation]

Fergal - to say that Kilkenny would have ten points on every team in the championship is typical of Wexford and other Leinster counties fans tryingt o hide the fact that their provincial championship is S***!
Reality is this that while Wexford caught Tipp on the hop they are still a very poor team as are Offaly which with the exception of Galway (beat by Clare remember) are all that Kilkenny have beaten this year. Kilkenny haven't had a real test all year and now that Limerick also caught Waterford on the hop means that they will have in all probability a handy All Ireland( hope I'm wrong).
The current structure in Leinster gives Kilkenny a fierce advantage as they don't need to peak untuil August/Spetember while the Munster counties are kncoking seven bells out of each other from late May. Before you come on spouting examine the facts in the 80's and 90's when the Leinster championship was competitive how many All-Ireland's did Kilkenny win? Two in each decade, thats the same since 2000 when the Leinster championsip has descended into a farce - reality is the one year that Wexford beat them Kilkenny failed to win the All-Ireland via the back door, couldn't cope with the extra games?
No denying that the current crop of Kilkenny players since 2000 are extremely talented but I beleive like many other hurling fans that the weak state of the Leinster championship is providing them with a distinct competitive advantage over the likes of Waterford, Cork, Tipp and Limerick.

[tayto]

Well it tends to go that if KK win an All Ireland they got a soft one but if they lose the final it's because they werent battle hardened along the way.
They've had a handy enough route to the final this year but that was the luck of the draw after the leinster championship [which i dont think anyone would argue isnt a mess at the moment.]
I hope to god Tipp and Galway sort themselves out to challenge KK because we need contenders on a national level for kk.

[Punxsutawney Fergal]

Yes the rest of Leinster are crap but let's be honest Munster is at it's lowest for a very long time!! KK would dispatch Cork or Waterford with 5-7 points to spare at this moment in time!! Munster people are quick to spout about how poor Leinster is (and yes I agree it is poor) but they will never admit to the fact that the Munster teams are also well operating WELL behind KK..

[INDIANA]

But sure the Munster championship is shit as well .It's competitive but the standard relative to KK is well below. You guys mistake competiveness for quality
Limerick are a very average hurling team and the fact that the likes of tipp and waterford can't beat them is a sorry endictment of how far the standard in munster has dropped. cork are the only team who could hold their own with kk and by their standards they ahve dropped 40% on previous years.
The rubbish tthta we listened to during the 3 game saga of tippv limerick- and tipp couldn't beat a bad wexford tema. Will you go away out of that and cop yourselves on.The musnter championship today isn't a patch on the 90's.
We're well aware the standard in leinster is poor but munster isn't much better. Clare are muck/tipp are muck/ limerick are very average/ cork are slightly above average and waterford are potentially the only team that could match kk but mentally they struggle.

[tayto]

In fact, Kilkenny v galway was a far higher standard then most games we've seen from munster. Now I'm not saying munster is crap, there's a lot of good teams in there but only one or two would have a hope against kilkenny. I hope Limerick prove me wrong but i fear a bit of a leinster final trimming in the all ireland final this year.

[sligeach]

It's not KK fault that they didn't meet a Munster side, If Tipp had of bet Wexford and went on to get tanked by KK would we all be complaining?

Granted Wexford I admit are in a dire state but I argue the point that KK would have 10 points on every other county in the Championship.

Cork have slipped back and with the loss of some key players due to retirement will slip back further.

Waterford - same as Cork but seem to have no underage players

Galway, same old failings - show us signs but don't deliver

Clare - I can't see them making any sort of impact on the championship for a long time.

Offaly - Similar to Clare.

Dublin - Plenty of promise, if they can bridge to gap between underage and senior should be Leinsters second best in the next 2 to 3 years

Wexford - You can't win games with 4 forwards who are Christy Ring standard, Will stumble along as Leinsters second best until Dublin pass them out

Tipp - Right I'm no fan of Tipp, yet I do believe that with a major change in players and the county boards mentality they are the best equipped to challange KK. Tipp have an Embarrassment of riches in underage. Last year a very good U21 side along with an excellent Minor side, don't get me started on this years minor team - What a team

Limerick - Well, I've been a critic but fair play to them for getting to the All-Ireland final, should they pull off a major shock (not impossible, Greece did win Euro 2004) I still think they are not going to be in this position next year or the year after.

Antrim - Same as Galway need would benefit from a major overhaul of the current structure

Agree with most of that except i disagree KK have 10 points on everyone. They have 20 on some and less then 10 on others

Honestly though, they are the best looking at the moment but in all fairness they have had no real opposition. Some of you may laugh at me, but Limerick look to me closer to KK then any other team at the moment. Not skillwise or qualitywise but committment wise. Limerick fought like dogs for every ball against waterford, they ran themselves ragged and if they do that against KK, they can rattle them and they can win.

Its a simple matter of committment. Are they willing to fight hard enough to make up for their lack in other areas ?

[Luksta]

From a Galway point of view..well it boils down to what can Ger Loughnane do with the Galway team on the road up to next years all-ireland.

He had only 8 months to make changes and an improvement in the team and i think they did themselves justice with their performance against KK until the last 10mins.

But the way the all-ireland stands at the moment..the question is should galway be allowed into Leinster to make it more competitvie for the likes of KK instead of an easy walk through to the q/f or s/f for kK.

Galway and antrim are teams that have no competition going in to the draw really in comparison to the likes of munster and if the system is to stay the same for the next 2 years until Dublin get up 2 speed or even the likes then KK will be walking their way through to a q/f again!!

There is also the queston of should Galway be brought into Munster to give them more competition in the run up to the all-ireland?

The motion for the leinster idea was put forward and was rejected by both Galway who being a Connaught team wouldnt be right lifting a Leinster cup and also from the Leinster board stating that there is enough strength in the minors in Leinster to provide competition in the coming years once Dublin and even West Meath get up to speed.

Opinions folks??

[Punxsutawney Fergal]

In my opinion they need to get revamp the entire structure!

Two groups with teams seeded, top two and the end of group games in each group progress to the All-ireland semi finals.

At the end of the day who really cares about the provincial championships apart from Tipp people that is.

[Pull Hard Hes No Relation]

I agree with Fergal, should be two groups which are seeded and drawn via open draw - two per tier in each group, tier to be decided by championship performance over past 3-4 years.

Tier One - Kilkenny, Cork, Waterford, Limerick

Tier Two - Galway, Tipp, Wexford, Clare

Tier Three - Dublin, Offaly, Antrim and Laois

I would retain the Q final structure with 1st in section A V 4th in section B, 2nd section AV 3 thried section etc to ensure best teams make the semi-finals as you could get a section of Kilkenny, Cork, Galway, Tipp, Dublin and Offaly which would be a lot more challenging than the other group.

That's my pennys worth anyway.

[maxpower]

we all love watching the Munster Championship but i really believe it has got to the stage where the insistence on sticking with these provincial championships is hindering the development of hurling nationally. do away with them or play them as a secondary competition and work with 2 groups of 5 teams with teams seeded on their performance in National League

for example this year

Group1
Waterford
Wexford
Galway
Clare
Antrim/Laois

Group 2
Kilkenny
Cork
Limerick
Tipp
Dublin/Offaly

2 Home fixtures 2 away.  top 2 in each group through to AI semi final, 2nd in group 1 v 3rd in group 2 and VV in AI QF.

Bottom 2 teams play off to avoid demotion to Ring cup.

plenty of flaws in this system and alot of traditionalists would hate it, but it would give the league real significance, no one could complain about soft draws, the ring cup would be more competitive and have a purpose other than playing in Croker

[tayto]

In my opinion they need to get revamp the entire structure!

Two groups with teams seeded, top two and the end of group games in each group progress to the All-ireland semi finals.

At the end of the day who really cares about the provincial championships apart from Tipp people that is.

Oh i'm not so sure an open draw is the way forward.
Youse Wexford folk looked damn pleased with yourselves last time you won Leinster 
In hurling Leinster is a dream for Dublin, just look at the u21s when they won a few weeks ago. i means the world to a county trying to improve but an asses roar away from an all ireland.
Look at Sligo this year. Take away the provinces and that sort of thing goes out the window.
For me, and it's been moted more and more, get Galway and Antrim into Leinster, i think it'd do them both good aswell as the Leinster championship. [would need to be renamed] ... give every county two chances, if anything i think the league could be ditched. do we need a league + provincial + all Ireland series? The league is the weak link if you ask me.

[Punxsutawney Fergal]

Group1
Waterford
Wexford
Galway
Clare
Antrim/Laois

Group 2
Kilkenny
Cork
Limerick
Dublin
Offlay

I love it, Tipperary must have objected to the changes so much that their county board pulled them out of the championship. Just think! A Summer of not having to listen to them tell us how they created the sport and how we all should bow down before them

[Lone Shark]

This debate always amuses me because Munster people are the ones who usually complain about Kilkenny's easy run and yet Munster teams are the ones who insist on the sanctity of the Munster championship and how it can't be touched. One or t'other lads.

I would go along with the summation that people aren't realising quite how good this Kilkenny team are, and that I feel sorry for the Cats in that when they blow Limerick away, as they undoubtedly will, everyone will say it's a handy All Ireland instead of it being one team just being that much better than the rest.

Plus most of the dogging of Leinster hurling comes from Tipp people - who lost to Wexford and came damn close to losing to Offaly in Thurles (a game that should have been in Birr if there was any fairness in the world).

Then you have people claiming that Galway are the saviours of it all, despite the fact that when Offaly run Kilkenny close for 57 mins and concede ten points in the last fifteen to lose by thirteen it's a valiant show from a plucky underdog, but when Galway do the more or less the same only three points better (run KK close for 60 minutes and concede ten to lose by ten) it's all about how close Galway came and how they're not far off the mark. This after Galway got the nice gerrymandered qualifier group deliberately laid out to make sure they didn't have to face into two loseable games just in case the poor dears mightn't get the bye into the quarters they pretend they don't want but secretly won't let the GAA deprive them of.

Kilkenny are just better and if you put them into the Munster championship they'd have done more or less the same thing. Let Galway, Antrim plus whoever else wants hurl in Leinster and let that be that.