Junior Footballers in County Panels

[DownFanatic]

not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.

Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?

Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.

Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.

It's the whole reason. It's a huge reason why there are divisional teams. This is all good. If the op is saying the scouting of junior players is better in Kerry, I don't think that's true. Junior players in Kerry have a great chance If they are good enough because of the system.

Just on Dublin, ciaran Kilkenny was a junior wasn't he, until he transferred? He played for the Dubs as a junior club man though.

Kilkenny leave Castleknock?

[AZOffaly]

I thought he was moving on? I might be wrong.

[Throw ball]

I know not junior but thought interesting that Armagh team on Sunday had 9 players who played intermediate football in 2014 in their starting 15.

[Owenmoresider]

not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.

Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?

Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.

Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.

It's the whole reason. It's a huge reason why there are divisional teams. This is all good. If the op is saying the scouting of junior players is better in Kerry, I don't think that's true. Junior players in Kerry have a great chance If they are good enough because of the system.

Just on Dublin, ciaran Kilkenny was a junior wasn't he, until he transferred? He played for the Dubs as a junior club man though.

Kilkenny leave Castleknock?

Castleknock aren't junior any more, in fact they'll be senior this year as they won the intermediate title.

Sligo has nothing to offer for this exercise, we only have 23 clubs, with my own being the lone exclusive junior club, and we have no county men.

[Ohtoohtobe]

None in Kildare that I know of, not since Two Mile House (AI junior champs 2013) went up. We only have 10 or so clubs whose first team is junior though and fairly confident we're not missing any particularly talented players.

[tc_manchester]

not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.

Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?

Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.

Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.

You hit the nail on the head BennyHarp - From a Tyrone perspective I think our current structure does not help us find our best players. If a player is not spotted at underage and put into a development squad then if he's in a junior club then he'll never be found. A perfect example is your own club Dungannon - you make senior this year and now have 2 men on the panel. You were playing junior 2 years ago - if you were still playing junior do you think they would have sniffed the panel. You could see the divisional sides as being development squads for adult players.

[BennyHarp]

not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.

Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?

Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.

Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.

You hit the nail on the head BennyHarp - From a Tyrone perspective I think our current structure does not help us find our best players. If a player is not spotted at underage and put into a development squad then if he's in a junior club then he'll never be found. A perfect example is your own club Dungannon - you make senior this year and now have 2 men on the panel. You were playing junior 2 years ago - if you were still playing junior do you think they would have sniffed the panel. You could see the divisional sides as being development squads for adult players.

I agree TC, it's a better way to identify talent from the junior clubs as those who make the divisional are already being highlighted as having potential so the county selector need never attend a junior match in the county to see the better junior players in action. I'm not sure how long this system has been in place in Kerry, but I would find it difficult to imagine that a similar system could be implemented in Tyrone or any other county at this stage. I'm not sure too many in the Clarkes would happily play for a representative side in the senior championship as we would always have seen ourselves as a senior club anyway. The thought of joining with Killyman, Edendork and maybe Donaghmore to play against Omagh wouldn't necessarily sit well and would be exceptionally difficult to fit into an already crowded fixture list if the players would be competing in both senior and junior championships. I also think that the Provincial and AI Junior and Intermediate Championships have lifted the profile of the average club player in those leagues and the ability to stand out in these games gives the players the opportunity to show what they can do - though i'm a little surprised that McCreesh from the Rock hasn't got a call up as he appears to have been the stand out player in Junior football last year (this probably backs up the exact point you are making TC!). With regards to Big Padraig and Packie Quinn making it onto the panel this year, I suppose those two lads had alot to do with the Clarkes getting back to senior football and their role in that has been recognised with call ups to the county squad. So perhaps the influence of a few good players can, to some extent, dictate which division their club play in and reduce the chances of that club plying their trade at junior level. A team with those two lads were never going to be hanging around in Junior football for too long. Tyrone have had a number of junior players in their ranks over the years, I could be wrong here but did Aiden Skeleton, John Lynch and Sean McNally all play for junior clubs in 1986?

I absolutely agree that we need to look at how we are identifying players for development squads and what we are doing with them once they are there. I still cant work out how we are still looking for a 6ft plus midfielder, tight marking corner back and a strong target man full forward. We are producing identikit footballers who are all good, comfortable ball players who can keep possession and support the man on the ball - a team of this type isn't going to win us an all Ireland anytime soon. If a 6ft 2" lad at 14 years of age can't kick a ball straight he should be on these squads and coached until he can.

[AZOffaly]

There's no obligation for a senior club to play with their divisional side. Laune Rangers don't play with Mid Kerry, Crokes don't play with East Kerry etc. So if your club reaches the standard of being a senior club, you don't have to join up. Bally-Foilmore played on their own after they won intermediate, and actually lost to South Kerry a couple of times in the Championship.

[BennyHarp]

There's no obligation for a senior club to play with their divisional side. Laune Rangers don't play with Mid Kerry, Crokes don't play with East Kerry etc. So if your club reaches the standard of being a senior club, you don't have to join up. Bally-Foilmore played on their own after they won intermediate, and actually lost to South Kerry a couple of times in the Championship.

Was the original idea to have North, South, East and West Kerry playing each other in the senior championship? I haven't ever given it much thought but I was always of the impression that the divisional sides were set up to make a more competitive senior championship and the larger clubs were never included in the divisional sides.

[AZOffaly]

No, as far as I'm aware, the championship always had the 'big' clubs. Stacks, Crokes, Rahillys etc. The 1920s seem to be the first time divisional sides seem to be mentioned in finals etc. 'Listowel selection' and 'North Kerry'in the 1920s.

Some of the divisional sides have a real sense of identity I find, as opposed to being a vehicle for people to play senior football. South Kerry, probably because of the Iverageh peninsula, is certainly a division that does seem to be rooted in the place, as opposed to the 'concept'.

But each of those big clubs can, if they wish, join their division. It's unlikely to happen of course, but teams like Glenflesk have dipped in and out of their divisional sides.

[tc_manchester]

You have to sell it as a positive to the junior and intermediate clubs. As a junior or intermediate club (at least in Tyrone) you have 2 chances to gain promotion either through the league or the championship. You can then split the season into 2 distinct parts. March-April-May-June you would play half your league games and complete the junior/intermediate and senior club championships. The winner of the senior club championship gets immunity from relegation and if a divisional side wins the county championship then they will represent the county in the all-ireland club championship. July-Aug-Sept you complete the league and the county championship. It means that you get serious football being played through the whole summer plus players will be less inclined to head for the states if they know they will be playing championship football in august. As far as clubs not liking it you need to put it in place for 5 years and then see how it has worked out. The benefit of seeing some of your teammates in the county final (e.g. North Tyrone or a Loughshore amalgamation) would be beneficial to the clubs. The only real losers would be the senior clubs who would find it harder to win the county championship

[Hound]

I thought he was moving on? I might be wrong.

Ciaran Kilkenny still with Castleknock, but they've been steadily moving up.
16 team divisions, they won Division 5 in 2011, won Div 4 in 2012, promoted from Div 3 in 2013 and lost in the Div 2 promotion playoffs in 2014.

They won the Dublin junior championship in 2012 and the intermediate championship in 2014, so will be part of the 32 team senior championship next year.

Fingallians got relegated to Div 3 last year, so I think that makes Paul Flynn the player who's club is at the lowest level of those who play regularly for the Dubs (though Costello is also at a Div 3 team)

[AZOffaly]

You have to sell it as a positive to the junior and intermediate clubs. As a junior or intermediate club (at least in Tyrone) you have 2 chances to gain promotion either through the league or the championship. You can then split the season into 2 distinct parts. March-April-May-June you would play half your league games and complete the junior/intermediate and senior club championships. The winner of the senior club championship gets immunity from relegation and if a divisional side wins the county championship then they will represent the county in the all-ireland club championship. July-Aug-Sept you complete the league and the county championship. It means that you get serious football being played through the whole summer plus players will be less inclined to head for the states if they know they will be playing championship football in august. As far as clubs not liking it you need to put it in place for 5 years and then see how it has worked out. The benefit of seeing some of your teammates in the county final (e.g. North Tyrone or a Loughshore amalgamation) would be beneficial to the clubs. The only real losers would be the senior clubs who would find it harder to win the county championship

If, and to be fair it is a big if, the clubs can come together and gain some sort of identity, then it can only be a positive. The issues arise where the links are tenuous at best, and there's no common purpose. In those scenarios preparation, selection and application all suffer, and it becomes a team weaker than it's parts.

St. Kieran's (I think) had this issue a few years ago. They represent Castleisland, Currow and a few others. Castleisland had a game in that celebrity bainisteoir thing, and their club (and players) prioritised that over a county championship match against South Kerry or Crokes. (Can't remember which). I know I was at it, and several Castleisland lads were missing.

In the vast majority of cases in Kerry, the divisional sides are seen as something you want to get onto, and are supported by the constituent clubs. I get the sense for other counties that it would be an alien concept, and would take a bit of selling. You'd have to be very careful how you mark the divisions out.

[DownFanatic]

Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.

[tc_manchester]

Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.

That's interesting DownFanatic - was the ability to enter a team into the senior championship closed by the county board or can it still be done