Tipperary vs. Kilkenny All-Ireland Semi-Final, Croke Park, 19th August

[AZOffaly]

d**kheads is right. Was the row shortly after the catcalling? You'd have trouble keeping your composure if you were in the vicinity of that, whether from the opposition supporters or your own.

No the row was nearer the end of the game. I suspect it was related to OTT slagging off of Tipp lads that wasn't appreciated. That was the depressing thing for me, it was fans from opposing sides throwing punches.

[Bord na Mona man]

Very silly tactic by Tipp to put so much work into targetting Walsh.
He might be a timber merchant, but he definitely isn't an easily to wind up hot head.
There is a difference and the Tipp management failed to appreciate it.

If they really wanted to get a player sent off, then perhaps they should have targetted a very non-obvious player. Someone who isn't so experienced at walking the disiplinary tightrope at I/C level.
Like how would a relatively inexperienced player like Kieran Joyce have reacted to the same level of provaction?

2 years ago against Kilkenny, Tipp had a very advanced attacking gameplan of forwards moving off the ball with great angled runs, dragging backs out of positions and creating space.
It was sad to see what they were reduced to on Sunday.

[Asal Mor]

I mentioned on another thread that the Munster final in 84 was the lowest I've felt as a Tipperary supporter and it was up to yesterday afternoon.

First off congrats to Kilkenny, the finest team to have played the game in my lifetime, unbelievable levels of skill, physicality and drive, in years to come we will look back on this set of players and consider ourselves lucky to have seen them in the flesh.

Babs wrote in his book that winning an All Ireland changes players, some players it changes for the better, the feeling of winning becomes addictive and drives them to redouble their efforts , some players it changes for the worse, a Celtic cross in their arse pocket and the adulation of the masses is enough for them, it makes them "soft" unwilling to put the effort in and unfortunately its difficult to spot which camp a player falls into until they have won their All Ireland, i would say their are a good few of this current Tipp team who are in the latter camp, whoever takes over from Deccie and co next year will need to make significant changes to the panel.

Its too early for a post mortem, i will have a look at the recording tonight, i doubt it will get any better on the second viewing, one thing though, i think some people on here and elsewhere are being a little harsh on Deccie and Lar for the tactics yesterday, ok it didn't work but as they say the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, i wouldn't be too hard on the management for trying something different.

Tipp can take a lot of comfort from the performance of their minors. Some serious talent there - Heffernan, Hamill, Fox, Mcgrath , Cahilll , McCarthy. Their stick passing was beautiful - pinpoint every time. There will be a few retirements and a change of manager for the seniors and it's no harm. Fair play to Ryan for taking on the job when he did. It was brave but Tipp have gone badly backwards in the last 2 years.

[seafoid]

It has been very hard for every other hurling county over the last 7 years to live with Kilkenny.
I feel sorry for Tipp supporters - I was at the 2006 Galway-KK match in Thurles when I thought we had a chance of winning an Ireland after 2005 and we were beaten out the door .

KK are coming to the end of their run and there are all Irelands to be won over the next few years - hopefully Offaly, Wexford, Clare, Dublin , Limerick Waterford and the rest can step up the the plate. Tipp will always be around but we need to get the all irelands spread around a bit.   

[orangeman]

KILKENNY ARE quietly incensed that the incident in Sunday's All-Ireland hurling semi-final which resulted in the severe hand injury to midfielder Michael Rice – now virtually certain to be ruled out of the final – looks set not to result in any sanction.

County board secretary Ned Quinn has confirmed that Rice will undergo an operation tomorrow to reset several broken bones in his hand, and also examine the exact extent of tendon damage, which could yet require further surgery.

But the nature of Rice's injury is only part of their alarm in the aftermath of Sunday's comprehensive victory over close rivals Tipperary.

The GAA's Central Competitions Control Committee (CCCC) have reviewed the video recording of the game to determine what, if any, further sanctions may be handed out in light of the several scenes of brawling and confrontation that marred the early stages of the match, and some later, more isolated incidents.

However, any further action has been deemed "unlikely", according to a Croke Park source, against either team.

Rice's injury was sustained in the 18th minute, when Tipperary wing back Pádraic Maher attempted a one-handed tackle with his hurl, along the sideline in front of the Hogan Stand.

Kilkenny manager Brian Cody was in close proximity of the incident and was clearly furious, although Cork referee Cathal McAllister let it go unpunished.

Quinn only went as far as to express his "surprise" that this wasn't picked up by the referee, and declined to comment further on the incident, or the need for some sort of sanction.

"We'll leave that to whoever looks after it," he said.

But Quinn didn't disguise his shock at the nature of the injury. "I'm not sure of the exact medical implications," he said, "nor would I like to discus that, but the hand is broken anyway, we know that for certain, badly broken."

It's almost certain too that Rice will now miss the All-Ireland final showdown against Galway in just under three weeks – although Quinn stopped short of making that a definite.

"Look, I would never rule a fella out. But I am using that phrase very carefully, because it is highly unlikely that he'll play in the All-Ireland.

"I just wouldn't rule a fella out altogether.

"How soon he'll be back is something I just don't know. I've spoken to Michael on a number of occasions, and how do you think he's taking it?

"Michael is one of those people that lives for hurling, so naturally he's devastated."

A statement on the Kilkenny website last night confirmed as much, adding that "this is most unfortunate for the Carrickshock clubman, who had shown an excellent return to form having recovered from injury earlier in the season".

Sunday's game was in fact the first time this summer that Kilkenny's first choice midfield pairing of Rice and Michael Fennelly was in operation, as Fennelly was just back from a knee injury.

Cillian Buckley, who replaced Rice on Sunday, should take over for the final should Rice miss out as expected, although Buckley is back in action this Saturday evening as part of the Kilkenny under-21 team that also takes on Galway in the All-Ireland under-21 semi-final – a timely appetiser to the senior showdown.

While Tipperary may be escaping any further sanctioning on top of an already embarrassing defeat, county board chairman Seán Nugent will sit down with manager Declan Ryan and his backroom team over the coming days, the expectation being that their two-year term will not be extended.

Nugent has admitted that following in the footsteps of Liam Sheedy and Eamon O'Shea was always going to be a difficult task.

"Whoever came in after them (Sheedy and O'Shea) was going to be on a fairly sticky wicket, to emulate them and what they achieved," he said.

"But they (Ryan and Tommy Dunne) were brave men to come in and do it."

[Last Man]

Have to agree KK might just be be past their best but they still have unparalelled  resolve when the tough questions are asked. Sheedy and O'Shea brought a new freshness to Tipp in 2010 and pulled out a level of performance which I think they knew could not be sustained and Ryan may not have been the right man even to try to take them forward from this.
As usual the cycle will be broken and who knows who the next dominant force might be?

[The Wedger]

A good article in the Irish Times.
It may be time for hurling to be more tightly controlled by referees.
Some of the exchanges are getting ugly.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0822/1224322660315.html

Rules of the game there to protect the players

SEÁN MORAN

ON GAELIC GAMES: The failure to apply the rules of the game and the poor sportsmanship on view at Croke Park last Sunday did the game of hurling a disservice

HISTORY REPEATS itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. We know Karl Marx couldn't have been speaking of the recently perennial Kilkenny-Tipperary rivalry because last Sunday was the third successive repeat and it ended in both tragedy for Tipperary and farce for everyone else.

Tragedy is generally a bit strong a description of anything in the sporting arena but Tipp's decline since 2010 has many elements of the classically tragic: hubris, falling from high estate and resulting calamities. Declan Ryan, Tommy Dunne and Michael Gleeson have had an unhappy two years and the one thing they can pass on to their successors is radically readjusted expectations.

But Ryan and Dunne were great players for the county and made significant contributions to winning All-Irelands on the field. They were plausible appointments and it didn't work out but for no more than the most basic expenses they signed up for a world of anxiety, frustration and accountability.

When the horror show had concluded on Sunday, Ryan still came out to face the television cameras, to give his interview and – on a day when we heard the adjective used in its peculiar GAA meaning of belligerent and disorderly – to accept with 'manly' forbearance the responsibility for all that had gone wrong.

There were indeed farcical aspects – and by this stage the funny photo-shopped pictures of Tommy Walsh and Lar Corbett have begun to proliferate on the internet – of Tipperary's defeat but none plumbed the depths of the disciplinary farce.

It wasn't that there was a sustained series of shocking fouls but the undercurrent of nastiness and poor sportsmanship was palpable. The widespread scatters in the opening minutes – including symbolically the two captains getting stuck into each other – were calmed down but only one player, Walsh, was punished, with a yellow card.

Yet there is a Category II infraction in the playing rules, at 5.6: "To contribute to a melee". It's punishable by a red card. Might it have been harsh to send players off for what happened? Perhaps, but rules are there to regulate behaviour and by taking no action against virtually everyone involved, referee Cathal McAllister effectively deemed the carry-on acceptable.

Even a few yellow cards would have put players on notice and forced them to risk dismissal if their behaviour didn't improve.

The referee was credited with reasserting his control of the match but more blatant omissions were to follow. Pádraic Maher astonishingly got a yellow card for clearly pulling across TJ Reid but in the first half his wild, one-handed pull ended up breaking Michael Rice's hand and putting him out of an All-Ireland final.

Kilkenny manager Brian Cody, whose high threshold for 'physicality' has been publicly expressed on many occasions, didn't appear at the time to regard this stroke as 'manly' and was visibly agitated on the sideline.

The incident summarised one of the problematic attitudes in hurling. It's all very well to say that the damage which may force a player out of the biggest occasion of the year was 'accidental' and 'unintentional' but where is the game if it has become a virtue that you didn't intend to injure an opponent? Rule 5.14 outlines the Category III, red card infraction: "To inflict an injury recklessly".

In other words we don't have to categorise Maher – or anyone else – as a "dirty player" in order to decide he has a duty of care to opponents. McAllister isn't the issue here. He may be an official with a reputation for 'letting play flow' but in this he appears to be part of a contemporary preference.

One leading hurling referee remarked privately that he believed he and his colleagues were at fault for allowing too much to go unpunished in elite level, intercounty matches but he said that none of the game's stake holders – spectators, players, managers and administrators – appeared to have any appetite for change.

It's hard not to have sympathy for referees in this environment. Ask yourself what importance is attached to the virtues of discipline and being determined to play the ball and nothing else.

For any of the 50,220 in Croke Park on Sunday, the disturbing scale of the early confrontations were obvious. For those watching the live broadcast the issue was discussed as follows at half-time by the RTÉ panel of Cyril Farrell, Ger Loughnane and Tomás Mulcahy.

Having described the exchanges as "ferocious" Loughnane went on to say: "The danger is that someone will analyse this in a video and start blaming people for what went on and see who hit who. That's rubbish. Those things happen at the start of a game. There's no one injured – hard physical exchanges and the game settled down."

Mulcahy added: "I think the referee was right at that stage because if he was going to flash yellow cards all over we'd have had no teams. At times the referee Cathal McAllister – he's from Cork and he's known for not blowing the whistle – you'd wonder was there a pea at all in the whistle because at times he just let the play go and it has made for the first half."

Given the reach of the national broadcaster and the influence of its analysts on perceptions, who'd have wanted to be a referee, who did his job and punished indiscipline according to rule – "rubbish", according to an All-Ireland winning manager – and dramatically affected the dynamic of the game? Only Farrell brought any sense of perspective to the issue, pointing out that you can't apply the rules everywhere else and then dispense with them in Croke Park.

It's not just enforcement. It's over two years since Tipperary's now-retired Declan Fanning required more than 20 stitches after having being effectively attacked with his own headgear. Still there has been no reform of the rule that makes it merely a yellow-card infraction to interfere with an opponent's faceguard – despite the fact that this now routinely happens. For instance Corbett on Sunday was sporting a cut on his cheek within four minutes. In the second half Kilkenny's Richie Power had his headgear tugged off – and ended up conceding a free.

Shaking someone's head around in a helmet risks cuts and worse, neck injury. It is a ridiculously dangerous practice and laying a finger on an opponent's headgear should be a strict liability red card.

As a nation we've been brought to our knees by failure to respect rules and the willingness of some to ignore regulation that doesn't suit their interests. The GAA should be making sure that the national game doesn't continue to walk the same path.

[orangeman]

A good article in the Irish Times.
It may be time for hurling to be more tightly controlled by referees.
Some of the exchanges are getting ugly.


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0822/1224322660315.html

Rules of the game there to protect the players

SEÁN MORAN

ON GAELIC GAMES: The failure to apply the rules of the game and the poor sportsmanship on view at Croke Park last Sunday did the game of hurling a disservice

HISTORY REPEATS itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. We know Karl Marx couldn't have been speaking of the recently perennial Kilkenny-Tipperary rivalry because last Sunday was the third successive repeat and it ended in both tragedy for Tipperary and farce for everyone else.

Tragedy is generally a bit strong a description of anything in the sporting arena but Tipp's decline since 2010 has many elements of the classically tragic: hubris, falling from high estate and resulting calamities. Declan Ryan, Tommy Dunne and Michael Gleeson have had an unhappy two years and the one thing they can pass on to their successors is radically readjusted expectations.

But Ryan and Dunne were great players for the county and made significant contributions to winning All-Irelands on the field. They were plausible appointments and it didn't work out but for no more than the most basic expenses they signed up for a world of anxiety, frustration and accountability.

When the horror show had concluded on Sunday, Ryan still came out to face the television cameras, to give his interview and – on a day when we heard the adjective used in its peculiar GAA meaning of belligerent and disorderly – to accept with 'manly' forbearance the responsibility for all that had gone wrong.

There were indeed farcical aspects – and by this stage the funny photo-shopped pictures of Tommy Walsh and Lar Corbett have begun to proliferate on the internet – of Tipperary's defeat but none plumbed the depths of the disciplinary farce.

It wasn't that there was a sustained series of shocking fouls but the undercurrent of nastiness and poor sportsmanship was palpable. The widespread scatters in the opening minutes – including symbolically the two captains getting stuck into each other – were calmed down but only one player, Walsh, was punished, with a yellow card.

Yet there is a Category II infraction in the playing rules, at 5.6: "To contribute to a melee". It's punishable by a red card. Might it have been harsh to send players off for what happened? Perhaps, but rules are there to regulate behaviour and by taking no action against virtually everyone involved, referee Cathal McAllister effectively deemed the carry-on acceptable.

Even a few yellow cards would have put players on notice and forced them to risk dismissal if their behaviour didn't improve.

The referee was credited with reasserting his control of the match but more blatant omissions were to follow. Pádraic Maher astonishingly got a yellow card for clearly pulling across TJ Reid but in the first half his wild, one-handed pull ended up breaking Michael Rice's hand and putting him out of an All-Ireland final.

Kilkenny manager Brian Cody, whose high threshold for 'physicality' has been publicly expressed on many occasions, didn't appear at the time to regard this stroke as 'manly' and was visibly agitated on the sideline.

The incident summarised one of the problematic attitudes in hurling. It's all very well to say that the damage which may force a player out of the biggest occasion of the year was 'accidental' and 'unintentional' but where is the game if it has become a virtue that you didn't intend to injure an opponent? Rule 5.14 outlines the Category III, red card infraction: "To inflict an injury recklessly".

In other words we don't have to categorise Maher – or anyone else – as a "dirty player" in order to decide he has a duty of care to opponents. McAllister isn't the issue here. He may be an official with a reputation for 'letting play flow' but in this he appears to be part of a contemporary preference.

One leading hurling referee remarked privately that he believed he and his colleagues were at fault for allowing too much to go unpunished in elite level, intercounty matches but he said that none of the game's stake holders – spectators, players, managers and administrators – appeared to have any appetite for change.

It's hard not to have sympathy for referees in this environment. Ask yourself what importance is attached to the virtues of discipline and being determined to play the ball and nothing else.

For any of the 50,220 in Croke Park on Sunday, the disturbing scale of the early confrontations were obvious. For those watching the live broadcast the issue was discussed as follows at half-time by the RTÉ panel of Cyril Farrell, Ger Loughnane and Tomás Mulcahy.

Having described the exchanges as "ferocious" Loughnane went on to say: "The danger is that someone will analyse this in a video and start blaming people for what went on and see who hit who. That's rubbish. Those things happen at the start of a game. There's no one injured – hard physical exchanges and the game settled down."

Mulcahy added: "I think the referee was right at that stage because if he was going to flash yellow cards all over we'd have had no teams. At times the referee Cathal McAllister – he's from Cork and he's known for not blowing the whistle – you'd wonder was there a pea at all in the whistle because at times he just let the play go and it has made for the first half."

Given the reach of the national broadcaster and the influence of its analysts on perceptions, who'd have wanted to be a referee, who did his job and punished indiscipline according to rule – "rubbish", according to an All-Ireland winning manager – and dramatically affected the dynamic of the game? Only Farrell brought any sense of perspective to the issue, pointing out that you can't apply the rules everywhere else and then dispense with them in Croke Park.

It's not just enforcement. It's over two years since Tipperary's now-retired Declan Fanning required more than 20 stitches after having being effectively attacked with his own headgear. Still there has been no reform of the rule that makes it merely a yellow-card infraction to interfere with an opponent's faceguard – despite the fact that this now routinely happens. For instance Corbett on Sunday was sporting a cut on his cheek within four minutes. In the second half Kilkenny's Richie Power had his headgear tugged off – and ended up conceding a free.

Shaking someone's head around in a helmet risks cuts and worse, neck injury. It is a ridiculously dangerous practice and laying a finger on an opponent's headgear should be a strict liability red card.

As a nation we've been brought to our knees by failure to respect rules and the willingness of some to ignore regulation that doesn't suit their interests. The GAA should be making sure that the national game doesn't continue to walk the same path.

Cody said it was good manly stuff   - that's good enough for me.

[deiseach]

Cody said it was good manly stuff   - that's good enough for me.

It seems to be an article of faith in football counties that the game would be better if only it were reffed in the manner of hurling matches. Be careful what you wish for.

[AZOffaly]

Not sure deiseach, I think the commonest refrain in 'football' counties is that they would like football to be reffed with the same level of 'common sense' as hurling. Sunday might have been a step too far though.

[orangeman]

If I were from Tipp I'd have been embarassed by the "circus" that went on last Sunday too - this piece is from the Independent.


TIPPERARY legend Len Gaynor has described the All-Ireland semi-final sideshow involving Lar Corbett at Croke Park last Sunday as "embarrassing".

Gaynor, who managed the Premier County from 1996-98, has also advocated a return to "the core values of Tipperary hurling" -- and is highly critical of the tactics employed against Kilkenny.

The two-time All-Ireland SHC medallist (1965 and 1971) insisted that "tactics can be overdone" in the modern game and believes Tipp should not be "obsessed by the opposition".

"It was obvious they thought this out a bit and thought that it was going to work," he said. "They were going to change Lar on Tommy Walsh and Pa Bourke on Jackie Tyrrell but Kilkenny were never going to allow that to happen.

"We all knew that from last year's final that Jackie was going to be on Lar. That puts Lar in the best possible position for Tipperary but instead of that, they were going around in circles and that was embarrassing alright.

"It looked unreal -- two Tipp players taken completely out of the game. They couldn't concentrate and were just roaming around, jostling around, digging, dragging, pushing and shoving. Kilkenny were doing it as well but it looked wrong and it was not effective for Tipp. It misfired badly.

"I think we need to get back to the core values of Tipperary hurling. The basics are bravery and courage -- bravery of mind to go and execute the job that you've trained to do, not to be obsessed by the opposition.

"Courage to put that in place and if things go wrong, courage to stand up.

"Tipperary teams have been beaten as often as anybody else but standing up to the opposition and giving their best for as long and as hard as they can is what we ask for as spectators."

Tipperary County Board chairman Sean Nugent described the numerous episodes involving Corbett, Bourke, Walsh and Tyrrell as a "circus".

Nugent said: "I don't think there was a tactic involved in it at all. Lar would be on Tommy Walsh -- he (Corbett) was picked there at No 12. Things happened on the field after that -- Jackie Tyrrell wanted to come out to mark him (Corbett) and that kind of circus that went on seriously disappointed me. I've never seen it before."

[deiseach]

Not sure deiseach, I think the commonest refrain in 'football' counties is that they would like football to be reffed with the same level of 'common sense' as hurling. Sunday might have been a step too far though.

Last Sunday is what you get when you ref according to common sense. Cyril Farrell was right. Enforce the rule book and leave common sense to Daily Mail editorials.

[AZOffaly]

Not true. Brian Gavin, Barry Kelly and most others can let a game flow without it descending into anarchy.

[NAG1]

Not true. Brian Gavin, Barry Kelly and most others can let a game flow without it descending into anarchy.

Unless there is a northern team involved in which case he is almost choking on his whistle to blow frees against them, which you see him waving on the next week.

Farrell was right you cant have a set of rules for one level of the game and then another for club and juvenile levels. Be some craic at the next u14 match if 6 or 8 of the young lads are laying into each other with shoulders and jabbing each other with the hurls. In this case the clubs would be hauled over the coals for it.

[orangeman]

Not true. Brian Gavin, Barry Kelly and most others can let a game flow without it descending into anarchy.

He's got the big gig in 3 weeks time.