Gay marriage

[Puckoon]

The Church, Church organizations and people who would call themselves Christians should not bend the principles of God's word to suit minority groups.

What about bending their principles to behave within the law, which I think is the ultimate point? These people do not want to wage war on the church - they want to be accepted for who they are, attain the same rights as every other human, and then be left alone.

My rights are being impacted Puck (IMO) if I am being forced into a situation that compromises my religious beliefs. Yes, i have choices, but like you indicated those choices would bear a huge financial impact on my family, one that we couldn't survive.

Finally - I still don't believe that your rights are being impacted. You are being forced into a difficult choice - but life is full of them. You are though being forced into this choice based on your choice of being a Christian. All options are open to you. You still have the rights - some of them may be just more expensive than others. That's still a better deal than you want to give the Gays.

I admire your beliefs. Some days I wish I had them but like Custer - I find myself surrounded by gays.

[The Iceman]

Ive to do this in parts - my computer is acting up and keeps scrolling to the top of my posts when I type more than 5 lines (wahey! I hear you say, now if we could only get EG's computer infected the same way ).

Yes, they had a choice, but withdrawing from providing adoption service to over 4000 families per year isn't the best of options, in my book.

Are you saying they made a bad choice? I think they did too.

Protecting the institution of marriage and protecting all life is a living out of those convictions.

Once the governments of all countries where civil marriage is acceptable allowed for marriage to come out of the church the "institution of marriage" was always going to be subject to change and modification based on the needs and wants of the populations. If marriage had continued to be a solely religious sacrament - then many arguments and tears could have been avoided. Of course it would mean people who didnt belong to a church couldn't be married. The instituion is no longer what it once was.

What do you do though Puck when faced with a decision that would force you to compromise on something you hold sacred? I don't know what example to give you that would resonate with your personally or that you could understand my point better. If I refuse to buy in to the Healthcare plan that includes elements that deny my faith and convictions then I am financially ruined. But I have no other choice. I can't deny my faith and I can't deny my God.

Yes Marriage is changing and has changed. I don't have to like it.

[EC Unique]

Is anyone on this board allowed to have an opinion without the PC brigade climbing all over them. EC etc have stated opinions and have not claimed them to be fact. Deal with it people, you can't browbeat everyone into submission.

But they can effectively browbeat the homosexuals into second class citizenship, because of opinons like this. Lame arugment Tony...
I'd replied to your post earlier yesterday before the thread got locked where you rightfully accused me of being in America too long. You may unfortunatly be onto something with that observation. I'd never knowingly met a gay person before I came here (that I knew of at least), and having worked with them, shared holidays and parties and watched our children grow up together - I cannot fathom the thought of some of these opinons. I could "deal with it" if there was so much as even a thread of evidence (even anecdotal as I've said), something, anything which pointed to their unsuitability as parents. As it is I have bucketloads of interactions with gay parents daily. I have a gay cousin, I have a gay sister in law and her wife with a child. I have 2 gay co-workers - both with children (biological). They are no different than any of the rest of us. No different than raising a child in a vegan household, or a Jewish one. To hear people talking about this being an unnecessary 'experiment' and 'long may it continue that these people do not have the right to raise a child' is disgusting. Judgement based on ignorance is a shame - that's as mildly as I'd put it.

I'm happy in my life after reading that.

[Puckoon]

I'd bend. Honest to God ( ) I'd bend. There comes a time when you cannot have the cake and eat it and tough decisions need to be made.

This might sound crass - but if I was you - I'd pray and ask for guidance.

In any case - I think financial ruin is taking it a bit too far...? We arent talking thousands of dollars here.

Here's a question - what's more important to you - your family or your faith? I imagine it has to be the family and so you do what you have to do to provide.

[Maguire01]

What do you do though Puck when faced with a decision that would force you to compromise on something you hold sacred? I don't know what example to give you that would resonate with your personally or that you could understand my point better. If I refuse to buy in to the Healthcare plan that includes elements that deny my faith and convictions then I am financially ruined. But I have no other choice. I can't deny my faith and I can't deny my God.

Did you not manage to bend the rules to get rid of a few nuisance cats?

[heganboy]

The Church, Church organizations and people who would call themselves Christians should not bend the principles of God's word to suit minority groups.
In many of the letters there are very clear points on homosexuality. The difficulty in engaging in any conversation (from my perspective) is that the majority of posters here completely dismiss God, the Bible and the Church. If my arguments are based on any of this, then I never have a credible point in the eyes of others.

I absolutely and utterly endorse that you are entitled to whatever beliefs religious and political that you want, and not only that you have the right to freedom of expression of those beliefs.

The issue that I have is with using this belief system to justify discrimination. Everyone else on the planet also has the right to their belief system no matter how repulsive or wrong it may be to you. Now I may take issue with your beliefs, and indeed encourage you to educate yourself on the belief systems of others, or even just appreciate that others have a different and indeed diametrically opposite view to yours but they can still have that view.

If your religious beliefs are set in stone then you shouldn't bend them to suit any group minority or otherwise, but then equally you should accept the higher financial costs to stay true to those beliefs, rather than impose your beliefs on others. You say the choice would make you choose between the Financial costs of compromising your beliefs or  breaking up your family. Thats a high price on your belief system, which comes first, wallet or bible?

Luke 6:31

What would you do if someone were to prevent you from having children because you were a heterosexual married catholic?

[The Iceman]

Puck, If I unsubscribe from our current health plan in work and seek my own through something like Cobra we're talking a couple of thousand dollars a month. Already with subsidized healthcare through my job, my contributions are close to $600 per month. We are a single income family with two kids and one more on the way.

If I was faced between choosing between my faith and my family - hand on heart I'd have to choose my faith. My family wouldn't have me otherwise.
That may seem like a ridiculous statement but I really would and my family would support my decision.

But convictions sent men we all know to war. Many Irish men and women who picked up a gun in defense of their country, or who starved themselves to death in a prison cell, did so based on convictions. They choose what they held sacred over their families.

[Puckoon]

That blows my mind, fair play to you. I hope the lord never visits you and tells you he's chosen you and your first born to try to the old Abraham and Issac trick again.

[J70]

There is a degree of bullying on this thread, subtle as it may be.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how ridiculous others consider it to be.  It is the joy of anonymous posting FFS.

Hold on a minute there. No one is captive here. No one is being forced to post or read the discussion. But if you offer up your opinion in a public forum like this you are not entitled to not have it challenged. If challenges to your opinions upset you, then don't post them.

[seafoid]

Iceman

How would your health insurance compromise your religious beliefs ?  I have no clue what you mean on this.
US health insurance is such a car crash. You mentioned a couple of thousand dollars a month. It isn't Christian to change people that sort of money.

[J70]

There is a degree of bullying on this thread, subtle as it may be.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how ridiculous others consider it to be.  It is the joy of anonymous posting FFS.

And everyone is entitled to challenge those opinions. And if someone wants to engage in debate, they have to be prepared for the possibility that flaws in the basis of their opinion might be exposed. We're all big boys and girls.

100% true, but browbeating does not constitute debate IMO.

Maybe there'd be a little less browbeating if those whose opinions are being legitimately questioned acknowledged the challenges and addressed them instead of happily ignoring them and posting the same nonsense again.

[Doogie Browser]

There is a degree of bullying on this thread, subtle as it may be.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion no matter how ridiculous others consider it to be.  It is the joy of anonymous posting FFS.

Hold on a minute there. No one is captive here. No one is being forced to post or read the discussion. But if you offer up your opinion in a public forum like this you are not entitled to not have it challenged. If challenges to your opinions upset you, then don't post them.

Slow down there!! Where have I said challenging an opinion is wrong?  The past 6/7 posts on this thread sum up exactly what way the debate shoud progress, it is the sniping at other posters for their beliefs/views without proper debate that annoys me.

[Puckoon]

Iceman

How would your health insurance compromise your religious beliefs ?  I have no clue what you mean on this.
US health insurance is such a car crash. You mentioned a couple of thousand dollars a month. It isn't Christian to change people that sort of money.

His health insurance offers contraception, and abortion - I think is the issue.

[Puckoon]

What about the environment dudes?

Forget about the middle east, the war on the environment is one which we are definitely winning.

[Eamonnca1]

But convictions sent men we all know to war. Many Irish men and women who picked up a gun in defense of their country, or who starved themselves to death in a prison cell, did so based on convictions. They choose what they held sacred over their families.

Jesus wept!