What do you make of this?

[muppet]

Look at it from the other side of the argument.

They are prohibited from joining a club of their choosing, for life, because of where they live.

I'm sure the GAA will make the point that it's important for the integrity of the association that clubs are not allowed move towards a situation where certain clubs can monopolise all the best players and the parish rule is a good way of preventing that. If you look at Article 40.6.iii of the Constitution (pdf), it guarantees "The right of the citizens to form associations and unions. Laws, however, may be enacted for the regulation and control in the public interest of the exercise of the foregoing right". So there is no absolute right to freedom of association, any more than you can build a house anywhere you like because you want to be near your family

It is in the public interest that you don't build your house in the middle of the Dungarvan - Waterford road, hence the law you refer to. How is it in the public interest that two 14 year olds from Kerry have to drive 11km to training instead of 1.5km?

[deiseach]

Look at it from the other side of the argument.

They are prohibited from joining a club of their choosing, for life, because of where they live.

I'm sure the GAA will make the point that it's important for the integrity of the association that clubs are not allowed move towards a situation where certain clubs can monopolise all the best players and the parish rule is a good way of preventing that. If you look at Article 40.6.iii of the Constitution (pdf), it guarantees "The right of the citizens to form associations and unions. Laws, however, may be enacted for the regulation and control in the public interest of the exercise of the foregoing right". So there is no absolute right to freedom of association, any more than you can build a house anywhere you like because you want to be near your family

It is in the public interest that you don't build your house in the middle of the Dungarvan - Waterford road, hence the law you refer to. How is it in the public interest that two 14 year olds from Kerry have to drive 11km to training instead of 1.5km?

Because it would be very bad for small units of the association if big units could select players from anywhere. The tendency of sport is towards monopoly - Man City signing anything that moves, for example - so it's important to have regulations to prevent that

[ExcellentDriver]

madness.
live beside a club. should play for it.
esp as they are only kids and not glory hunting armagh-heads looking for senior clubs in Dublin !!

it saddens me to see two kids dragged through the crap over this.
would not be surprised if they never play football again - thats flipping stupid stuff.

some of these fellas in the clubs need a good kick in the head

Here here Lynchbhoy.

[muppet]

Look at it from the other side of the argument.

They are prohibited from joining a club of their choosing, for life, because of where they live.

I'm sure the GAA will make the point that it's important for the integrity of the association that clubs are not allowed move towards a situation where certain clubs can monopolise all the best players and the parish rule is a good way of preventing that. If you look at Article 40.6.iii of the Constitution (pdf), it guarantees "The right of the citizens to form associations and unions. Laws, however, may be enacted for the regulation and control in the public interest of the exercise of the foregoing right". So there is no absolute right to freedom of association, any more than you can build a house anywhere you like because you want to be near your family

It is in the public interest that you don't build your house in the middle of the Dungarvan - Waterford road, hence the law you refer to. How is it in the public interest that two 14 year olds from Kerry have to drive 11km to training instead of 1.5km?

Because it would be very bad for small units of the association if big units could select players from anywhere. The tendency of sport is towards monopoly - Man City signing anything that moves, for example - so it's important to have regulations to prevent that

One word: Bosman.

[Hardy]

If this case is won, what's to stop county players challenging the rule that requires them to play for, say Leitrim when they would rather play for Mayo and pursue their dream of All-Ireland glory with some chance of success and the material rewards it brings?

[seafoid]

I would be more worried about good leitrim fuballers ending up playing for Meath and then going on to be RTE analysts.

[Hardy]

Don't be silly. How could that happen?

[deiseach]

One word: Bosman.

Bosman was about rules preventing players moving across EU borders. It obviously had more wide-ranging implications, but I can't see the European Cout of Justice concerning itself with the borders between Listry and Firies. Oh, and no quoting Epic at me

[muppet]

If this case is won, what's to stop county players challenging the rule that requires them to play for, say Leitrim when they would rather play for Mayo and pursue their dream of All-Ireland glory with some chance of success and the material rewards it brings?

I made the point here years ago that the Gaa needed to address this problem in advance. The inter-county player grants could easily have dealt with that.

If a court case decides the rules are unconstitutional then there may be a problem. I am not saying I think this is great, merely that the one dictatorial rule fits all is likely to end in a bang. The Gaa would be better coming up with a happy medium now rather than waiting for an Irish court, or more likely a European one opening the dam.

The problem with the Gaa is that for every argument they are likely to make, anyone in any county will point to exceptions to the rule being allowed.

For example an obvious argument is that, as the players earn nothing in an amateur organisation, they cannot be contracted hence the need for such rules, which would otherwise be part of a contract. However it will be pointed out that many players are paid, not to mention managers.

[muppet]

One word: Bosman.

Bosman was about rules preventing players moving across EU borders. It obviously had more wide-ranging implications, but I can't see the European Cout of Justice concerning itself with the borders between Listry and Firies. Oh, and no quoting Epic at me

It was about players freedom to move rather than clubs deciding if they could move. It was also about the individual's rights rather than the associations right to decide the fate of the individual. Bosman wanted to move to France from Belgium, hence the ruling went that way.

[deiseach]

Why use pejorative terms like 'dictatorial'? That implies that the rule can't be changed internally. The probability that such a change would not be successful is democracy, not dictatorship

[macdanger2]

Your question now appears to be: Are age limits in sports unconstitutional?

Not quite - my point was that if an association doesn't have the right to impose one particular rule (i.e. you can only play for the club in your own parish) then they may not be able to impose the rule that you are only alloed to play within a particular age bracket. In my view, an association should have the right (within limits) to decide upon basic rules such as this.

I presume the GAAs argument would be that this would end up in clubs becoming unviable and that that would be of greater detriment to the community.

Bosman was about rules preventing players moving across EU borders. It obviously had more wide-ranging implications, but I can't see the European Cout of Justice concerning itself with the borders between Listry and Firies.

I thought Bosman was about clubs not being allowed to have a hold on players once their contracts have expired as that infringes upon that individuals rights

[deiseach]

It was about players freedom to move rather than clubs deciding if they could move. It was also about the individual's rights rather than the associations right to decide the fate of the individual. Bosman wanted to move to France from Belgium, hence the ruling went that way.

No, it wasn't. The 'Bosman ruling' quite specifically says it was about movement across borders:

Article 48 of the EEC Treaty precludes the application of rules laid down by sporting associations, under which a professional footballer who is a national of one Member State may not, on the expiration of his contract with a club, be employed by a club of another Member State unless the latter club has paid to the former club a transfer, training or development fee.

Had Bosman being trying to move within Belgium, he would never have been able to take a case to the European Court. Now, there might be issues with the Constitution of Ireland. But European law does not apply here

[muppet]

Your question now appears to be: Are age limits in sports unconstitutional?

Not quite - my point was that if an association doesn't have the right to impose one particular rule (i.e. you can only play for the club in your own parish) then they may not be able to impose the rule that you are only alloed to play within a particular age bracket. In my view, an association should have the right (within limits) to decide upon basic rules such as this.

I presume the GAAs argument would be that this would end up in clubs becoming unviable and that that would be of greater detriment to the community. [\quote]

And that would allow them to break the law (if it is found to do so) why? That is not a legal argument.

Bosman was about rules preventing players moving across EU borders. It obviously had more wide-ranging implications, but I can't see the European Cout of Justice concerning itself with the borders between Listry and Firies.

I thought Bosman was about clubs not being allowed to have a hold on players once their contracts have expired as that infringes upon that individuals rights

Yes, and the Gaa has no contracts but still may inadvertently infringe on individual's rights under the constitution.

The answer is not to go to court with the 'beal bocht' although reading this thread I reckon that is exactly what the Gaa will do.

[deiseach]

muppet, let's firm up the parameters of this discussion. As a person interested in the GAA (don't know if you're a member of a club), do you think the GAA should allow people to join whatever club/county they like?