Gaelic players announce media ban

[longrunsthefox]

I LOVE THIS SECTION... hopefully the GAA bosses hold strong to this shower ... Dessie, Donal and Sean Cavanagh take heed

4 It is also the view of the GAA that comparisons with other players' bodies elsewhere and in other contexts are of limited relevance. On every important criterion, the situation in respect of the GAA is profoundly different:
(i) The GAA is an amateur association, while other bodies function in a purely professional context;
(ii) GAA players play our games as a recreation of choice, while others do so as a professional activity;
(iii) The GAA does not exist to make a profit. Indeed, professional sport is increasingly conducted according to the profitability models of business. Sporting entities "invest in" players as, in effect, assets and, very often, must respond to the demands of shareholders.

[Bud Wiser]

I was out wandering around last week and I wandered into An Fear Rua's site, first time for years.  There was a thread on the GPA and on that thread there was not one Pro-Gpa poster.  It is incredible to think that even last week I was up on the Shannon around Carrick and in the pub where I watched the game I asked two lads who were having a smoke what they thought and it was the same story.

If I was a serious sponsor, or head of Marketing for my company I would not place my products in the care of a divisive group in any way or have the product associated with conflict.  Here we have a situation where the GAA may find it difficult to get sponsorship because they will be perceived to be in conflict with the GPA and the GPA will find it hard to get sponsorship because not alone are they in conflict with the GAA but with us, the supporters of our clubs and the grassroots of the GAA.  

Up to now the perception has been that there is a row between the GAA and the GPA but no forum has been provided during this ten year tiff to encompass the views of us, supporters and ordinary members of the GAA.  It has been discussed in the media with statements flying back and forth as if club members and in particular, retired inter county players and club officers who are against the ideals of the GPA did not exist.

The GPA should now consider their position and do what is abundantly clear they should do from the views that have been expressed about them, that being to just go away.   They have done some good and we accept that.

What I can't accept is all the grey areas that surround them such as:

In their company records they say they pay directors pensions, are these pensions of Paddy the Plasterer proportions or Michael Fingleton proportions and who is paid pensions.?

How are ex players selected for positions on the board of directors or committee as it apears from a recent article in a Sunday paper that this is a selective process. Accordingly it can not represent the broad spectrum of the GAA but rather a selective membership of the GPA.  As such, as Cyril Farrell would say, any grant funding would not be equally distributed among players and from the very day it would be handed over you would have a rebellion from the Kilkenny Senior football team and the Wicklow hurling team, and rightly so or we would not have the Declan Brownes or the Tommy Gill's.

From my understanding of any state funding program, you can not get a grant to fund outstanding debts, you can get an equipment grant, employment subsidy grant, opening stock grants from various bodies such as the Enterprise Board or Fas.  The very first piece of paper that they will want to see is a copy of your last bank statement and a Tax Clearance Certificate, no ifs, no buts, that's how it operates.  The accounts available for the GPA, and this is in the public domain, show that for the last two years they have a considerable Vat liability.  Any company that applies for a grant with a Vat lliability is not at the races because you can't get a government payment to make one back.  Similarly, if the GAA get government funding they can not alocate part of that funding to a third party with a tax liability, in the same way as if I do a job for the Office of Public Works and on completion I give them an invoice for say 20,000 while I have a vat liability, they will, as has happened, retain that money and the tax office will put an attachment on it.

Now, from a legal standpoint, I am not saying there is wrongdoing on the part of the GPA.  I am quoting from details readily available at www.cro.ie and I am not saying they owed vat for two consequetive years, it is their own auditor who states this and who placed the company returns at everyones disposal. I have no idea how they charge Vat or return vat nor could I care less, they have a laptop for sale on their website and it doesn't say whether it is Vat inclusive or not.  As far as I am aware the law states that you must either include Vat in your advertised product OR state what the extra Vat amount is.  (That would make this particular laptop a very good buy).

The point I make in all of this is that even if the GAA wanted to give the GPA a grant in the morning I don't think they could legally do so, not leat because if the GAA payment goes into a central GPA account then could it not have a percentage allocated to those directors pensions I am asking about?

[antoinse]

Bud Wiser - Maybe this is a case for the Minister of Finance rather than the Minister of Sport

[INDIANA]

I think Bud raises some good points. We're expected to hand over millions of euro to an organisation we know nothing about. Lets face it we know more about the inner workings of a monastery then we do about the GPA.
Where is the business acumen, where is the business plan. How would it be distributed- what would they use it for? Some of the players seem to think they have a divine right to this money. If they want to go on strike -let them. The association didn't begin and end with these players. We're talking about millions of euro not a couple of hundred quid.

[gerrykeegan]

I was out wandering around last week and I wandered into An Fear Rua's site, first time for years.  There was a thread on the GPA and on that thread there was not one Pro-Gpa poster.  It is incredible to think that even last week I was up on the Shannon around Carrick and in the pub where I watched the game I asked two lads who were having a smoke what they thought and it was the same story.

If I was a serious sponsor, or head of Marketing for my company I would not place my products in the care of a divisive group in any way or have the product associated with conflict.  Here we have a situation where the GAA may find it difficult to get sponsorship because they will be perceived to be in conflict with the GPA and the GPA will find it hard to get sponsorship because not alone are they in conflict with the GAA but with us, the supporters of our clubs and the grassroots of the GAA.  

Up to now the perception has been that there is a row between the GAA and the GPA but no forum has been provided during this ten year tiff to encompass the views of us, supporters and ordinary members of the GAA.  It has been discussed in the media with statements flying back and forth as if club members and in particular, retired inter county players and club officers who are against the ideals of the GPA did not exist.

The GPA should now consider their position and do what is abundantly clear they should do from the views that have been expressed about them, that being to just go away.   They have done some good and we accept that.

What I can't accept is all the grey areas that surround them such as:

In their company records they say they pay directors pensions, are these pensions of Paddy the Plasterer proportions or Michael Fingleton proportions and who is paid pensions.?

How are ex players selected for positions on the board of directors or committee as it apears from a recent article in a Sunday paper that this is a selective process. Accordingly it can not represent the broad spectrum of the GAA but rather a selective membership of the GPA.  As such, as Cyril Farrell would say, any grant funding would not be equally distributed among players and from the very day it would be handed over you would have a rebellion from the Kilkenny Senior football team and the Wicklow hurling team, and rightly so or we would not have the Declan Brownes or the Tommy Gill's.

From my understanding of any state funding program, you can not get a grant to fund outstanding debts, you can get an equipment grant, employment subsidy grant, opening stock grants from various bodies such as the Enterprise Board or Fas.  The very first piece of paper that they will want to see is a copy of your last bank statement and a Tax Clearance Certificate, no ifs, no buts, that's how it operates.  The accounts available for the GPA, and this is in the public domain, show that for the last two years they have a considerable Vat liability.  Any company that applies for a grant with a Vat liability is not at the races because you can't get a government payment to make one back.  Similarly, if the GAA get government funding they can not alocate part of that funding to a third party with a tax liability, in the same way as if I do a job for the Office of Public Works and on completion I give them an invoice for say 20,000 while I have a vat liability, they will, as has happened, retain that money and the tax office will put an attachment on it.

Now, from a legal standpoint, I am not saying there is wrongdoing on the part of the GPA.  I am quoting from details readily available at www.cro.ie and I am not saying they owed vat for two consequetive years, it is their own auditor who states this and who placed the company returns at everyones disposal. I have no idea how they charge Vat or return vat nor could I care less, they have a laptop for sale on their website and it doesn't say whether it is Vat inclusive or not.  As far as I am aware the law states that you must either include Vat in your advertised product OR state what the extra Vat amount is.  (That would make this particular laptop a very good buy).

The point I make in all of this is that even if the GAA wanted to give the GPA a grant in the morning I don't think they could legally do so, not leat because if the GAA payment goes into a central GPA account then could it not have a percentage allocated to those directors pensions I am asking about?

Bud the VAT questions has been answered a few times, nearly every business that files accounts would have a VAT and PAYE liability at the end of their year, they pay it when it is due not before, having a liability to pay something does not mean it is due then but a later date. We would have Tax Clarence Cert in our business and both a VAT and PAYE liability.

[INDIANA]

But what are they going to do with the 5% and 50k per month. Its like me going to a bank manager and asking for a loan for a new business with no business plan. Its hilarious.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

But what are they going to do with the 5% and 50k per month. Its like me going to a bank manager and asking for a loan for a new business with no business plan. Its hilarious.

Let's hazard a guess...salaries, pension costs, "admin" costs, "office" expenses, travel expenses, professional fees, mobile phone fees, marketing costs, cleaning and consumables, wife's wages, use of home as office, duck ponds, moats, dirty movies....

[Reillers]

Some people are so bitter.

Like I'm not exactly thrilled at the fact that they are excluding the ordinary club player from this, which would probably be one of my biggest problem with it. But there's no need for people to be so bitter about it, to begrudge them a pathetic 5%.

I mean if you're out of work, that, at least, €1000 at the end of the season, it will make a hell of a difference at the end of the year for the IC player, but not so much that it'll want them going mad for more.
They work hard all year round, the level of skill and fitness..etc improves year in year out, the off time in the season gets shorter and shorter, more is demanded from them each year. I can see why they're getting frustrated, especially when they aren't seeing the money go back in anywhere else. They work hard, 26 odd hours a week is a lot, and they probably feel they deserve some reward for that. Something to recognise their efforts.
Ya they're not forced to do it, but if that's the case we'll have no one left to play. They aren't forced to do it, but they do it because they love it, but they do have to sacrifice a lot. To deny that is unfair to them, especially when it's so clear to see, especially when you consider how demanding it's gotten over the last few years, it'd be hard to deny that they don't deserve what they're asking for.

I don't really back it, amateur is amateur, but I can see where they're coming from, and if you're paying clowns like Frank Murphy, I'd much rather see it go to the players. So whatever happens, I'm not going to begrudge them it. It's not like you can say they haven't earned it.

I mean, they give us so much entertainment all year round, they're labled as heroes. But when it comes to giving them recognition, then they're a joke?

People who have problems with the GPA, the problems are mostly with this part of them because they do do a lot of good work in other parts of the game. But the only way to stop the GPA is to slow them down, to slow down their momentum. If the GAA keep saying no, if they keep adding fuel to the fire then more and more momentum will continue to grow, and it's been building and building for a few years now. The players feel they've a right to be recognised. I see no problem in that if it'll stop the backlash which the GAA will face if they keep on provoking them.

At the end of the day 5% is f**k all, and I don't see the point in begruding them the tiny amount of money that they could possibly get. Especially if it'll prevent backlash in the future.

[rrhf]

Would the players not prefer if the ticket prices went down 5 - 10 %. 

[orangeman]

Some people are so bitter.

Like I'm not exactly thrilled at the fact that they are excluding the ordinary club player from this, which would probably be one of my biggest problem with it. But there's no need for people to be so bitter about it, to begrudge them a pathetic 5%.

I mean if you're out of work, that, at least, €1000 at the end of the season, it will make a hell of a difference at the end of the year for the IC player, but not so much that it'll want them going mad for more.
They work hard all year round, the level of skill and fitness..etc improves year in year out, the off time in the season gets shorter and shorter, more is demanded from them each year. I can see why they're getting frustrated, especially when they aren't seeing the money go back in anywhere else. They work hard, 26 odd hours a week is a lot, and they probably feel they deserve some reward for that. Something to recognise their efforts.
Ya they're not forced to do it, but if that's the case we'll have no one left to play. They aren't forced to do it, but they do it because they love it, but they do have to sacrifice a lot. To deny that is unfair to them, especially when it's so clear to see, especially when you consider how demanding it's gotten over the last few years, it'd be hard to deny that they don't deserve what they're asking for.

I don't really back it, amateur is amateur, but I can see where they're coming from, and if you're paying clowns like Frank Murphy, I'd much rather see it go to the players. So whatever happens, I'm not going to begrudge them it. It's not like you can say they haven't earned it.

I mean, they give us so much entertainment all year round, they're labled as heroes. But when it comes to giving them recognition, then they're a joke?

People who have problems with the GPA, the problems are mostly with this part of them because they do do a lot of good work in other parts of the game. But the only way to stop the GPA is to slow them down, to slow down their momentum. If the GAA keep saying no, if they keep adding fuel to the fire then more and more momentum will continue to grow, and it's been building and building for a few years now. The players feel they've a right to be recognised. I see no problem in that if it'll stop the backlash which the GAA will face if they keep on provoking them.

At the end of the day 5% is f**k all, and I don't see the point in begruding them the tiny amount of money that they could possibly get. Especially if it'll prevent backlash in the future.

How much is 5% gross of the nett profits ?? It might not seem as insignificant to you then.

[full back]

Ya they're not forced to do it, but if that's the case we'll have no one left to play.

Not true
Plenty of people will still play the game

The GAA isnt going to go under or disband if money isnt paid

[heffo]

Some people are so bitter.

Like I'm not exactly thrilled at the fact that they are excluding the ordinary club player from this, which would probably be one of my biggest problem with it. But there's no need for people to be so bitter about it, to begrudge them a pathetic 5%.

I mean if you're out of work, that, at least, €1000 at the end of the season, it will make a hell of a difference at the end of the year for the IC player, but not so much that it'll want them going mad for more.
They work hard all year round, the level of skill and fitness..etc improves year in year out, the off time in the season gets shorter and shorter, more is demanded from them each year. I can see why they're getting frustrated, especially when they aren't seeing the money go back in anywhere else. They work hard, 26 odd hours a week is a lot, and they probably feel they deserve some reward for that. Something to recognise their efforts.
Ya they're not forced to do it, but if that's the case we'll have no one left to play. They aren't forced to do it, but they do it because they love it, but they do have to sacrifice a lot. To deny that is unfair to them, especially when it's so clear to see, especially when you consider how demanding it's gotten over the last few years, it'd be hard to deny that they don't deserve what they're asking for.

I don't really back it, amateur is amateur, but I can see where they're coming from, and if you're paying clowns like Frank Murphy, I'd much rather see it go to the players. So whatever happens, I'm not going to begrudge them it. It's not like you can say they haven't earned it.

I mean, they give us so much entertainment all year round, they're labled as heroes. But when it comes to giving them recognition, then they're a joke?

People who have problems with the GPA, the problems are mostly with this part of them because they do do a lot of good work in other parts of the game. But the only way to stop the GPA is to slow them down, to slow down their momentum. If the GAA keep saying no, if they keep adding fuel to the fire then more and more momentum will continue to grow, and it's been building and building for a few years now. The players feel they've a right to be recognised. I see no problem in that if it'll stop the backlash which the GAA will face if they keep on provoking them.

At the end of the day 5% is f**k all, and I don't see the point in begruding them the tiny amount of money that they could possibly get. Especially if it'll prevent backlash in the future.

A few counter arguments:

1. I don't think anyone is 'begrudging' them anything - for me, it's wrong to have a hierarchy of GAA volunteer. The Elite IC player is a product of their clubs and is the product of hundreds of people's volunteer work. IC games are the window dressing of the GAA, not the be all and end all.

2. You say IC players get frustrated when they see the money the GAA earns not being re-invested anywhere else - that's plain ludicrous - the GAA accounts are available as a public document and anyone can where all the money is being re-invested in each county board - it's not as if Central council are like some African dictatorship all driving around in Rolls Royces

3. Personally speaking, I'm a club officer, a County board officer, a Juvenile coach, a player among other things in the GAA - I spend probably at least twice the 26 hours figure you quote involved in the GAA each week - I don't apply for a cent in expenses. When I bring the youngfellas from my team to a match in Parnell park or Croke park, I generally end up paying for half of their tickets, end up paying for their bus/luas etc because they're foreign nationals/their parents don't have the money etc - I don't mention it to anybody and don't give it a second thought.

If I thought that I was coaching these players and giving my time for free so they could become professionals I'd have second thoughts about it - I'm doing what I do for the benefit of the GAA, for the benefit of my club, for the benefit of the players involved and most importantly because I enjoy it - I can walk away at any stage if I don't want to do it anymore - I'm not trying to big myself up, simply illustrating an example against Dessie Farrell's patronising 'rump of malcontents' idea..

4. The GPA are looking for a flat 5% with no breakdown of how they'll spend or re-distribute it - as another poster made the point - I wouldn't walk into a bank and ask for a large loan without a business plan.

[orangeman]

But what are they going to do with the 5% and 50k per month. Its like me going to a bank manager and asking for a loan for a new business with no business plan. Its hilarious.

I think you'll find the GPA aren't interested in loan repayments !! 



5% of the total gross income  = ? % of the total nett profit Can anyone shed any light on this as I've a feeling that the 5% will significantly rise.

[Rois]

Bud the VAT questions has been answered a few times, nearly every business that files accounts would have a VAT and PAYE liability at the end of their year, they pay it when it is due not before, having a liability to pay something does not mean it is due then but a later date. We would have Tax Clarence Cert in our business and both a VAT and PAYE liability.

I have to agree with this, just because there is a liability to pay it, doesn't mean it's overdue.  Any accounts based on the accruals principle will have certain balances that they charge to income statement but don't necessarily pay over immediately in cash.  Like a credit card bill - you know you have to pay out the money some day, but you won't get a black mark just because you wait till payday to have enough cash to pay it, you usually have a bit of time between receiving the bill and the date payment is due.  So it doesn't necessarily tell you anything as the balance sheet is at one particular point in time.

Any % of gross income will generally be the biggest % you could get.  As you say orangeman, 5% of gross income will be a hell of a lot more than 5% of net profit.  Take for example the accounts of Croke Park (can you get the Central Council's anywhere?) -  2007 gross income was about £44m, 5% of it about £2.2m.  Profit was just over £3m.  That 5% of turnover becomes over 66% of the profit.   

[longrunsthefox]

But what are they going to do with the 5% and 50k per month. Its like me going to a bank manager and asking for a loan for a new business with no business plan. Its hilarious.

Let's hazard a guess...salaries, pension costs, "admin" costs, "office" expenses, travel expenses, professional fees, mobile phone fees, marketing costs, cleaning and consumables, wife's wages, use of home as office, duck ponds, moats, dirty movies....

...baby sitters even for players with no babies, bottled water, loss of evening shift earnings  , cuddly toy....