County Champions and Ulster Finallists Ballinderry Thrown out of Championship

[Rav67]

you are the one who is arguing the point that his jaw wasn't broke only fractured and there is a major difference

While there may be a difference medically  there is no difference about the intent

So you're implying that the intent was there to break a jaw? You're sure about that?

Because I'm not. I only know that to actually break a jaw you need to make a hell of a swing.

Wouldn't need to be a "hell of a swing" to fracture a slack jaw.  The whole point is the punch was apparently from behind.  The vast majority of times someone takes a belt to the face they will see it coming, even if they see it late they will have tightened up a wee bit and be able to absorb the punch better.

[JMohan]

if it was conway it makes it an even dirtier act, dont know how he could do that to a young lad 20 years of age knowing he would be training with him and then playing together a number of weeks against their great rivals?  conway hasnt exactly been too public in trying to defend himself though.  I no if that was me being called all the C***** of the day not only within my county, but possibly over the whole of the province and even ireland at this stage i would want to defend myself.  they mustnt like going public in bderry

I don't see how him staying quiet is making much difference? What's he going to say? Accuse Keilt of mouthing to him? Say he didn't mean it? Give a tears and all interview to Paddy Heaney? What difference would it make? As you see here everyone is judge and jury and as one client above said - sure once the dogs in the street know it sure it's over. It's not trial by media - nor should it be. It's trial where it should be - at a proper hearing where he gets a chance to speak then.

Look the bottom line is that I can't see how future dealings with the CB and Cassidy with Ballinderry will be clouded by this for a long while to come.
Perhaps now that there is no ban there may be a quiet moment for all to reflect and maybe an agreement to suit all might materialise.

so this wont have effected morale in the derry camp then?

No, not a bit ...

[JMohan]

you are the one who is arguing the point that his jaw wasn't broke only fractured and there is a major difference
While there may be a difference medically  there is no difference about the intent

So you're implying that the intent was there to break a jaw? You're sure about that?
Because I'm not. I only know that to actually break a jaw you need to make a hell of a swing.

Wouldn't need to be a "hell of a swing" to fracture a slack jaw.  The whole point is the punch was apparently from behind.  The vast majority of times someone takes a belt to the face they will see it coming, even if they see it late they will have tightened up a wee bit and be able to absorb the punch better.

Agreed

[magpie seanie]

Under what rule has the club been suspended/being thrown out of the championship? Does anyone know?

[Archie Mitchell]

Under what rule has the club been suspended/being thrown out of the championship? Does anyone know?

The "Ballinderry" rule

[magpie seanie]

Thanks Archie, very helpful.

For those who are interested in the rules and facts I looked it up myself and I would imagine they have used rule 146 (d) (3) which actually gives carte blanche to the organising committee to impose whatever penalty they see fit. My guess is it will be appealed and the penalty reduced. I hope the process is dragged out a good bit to make the perpetrator sweat and be very unpopular in his club and community.

My sympathy is with young Kielt. A horrible act that was done to him. I just feel that 25 other lads shouldn't be punished for one lads (very bad) actions. Also, its completely wrong to expect a club chairman to finger someone for this.

[slow corner back]

Dont know the specific rule Seanie but a few years back there was a huge row between Cargin and St Pauls at the end of a county final which Cargin were winning. The match was abandoned there were suspensions all round and Cargin ended up getting banned from all football in Antrim for a while. As it was over the winter by the time the leagues had restarted in the spring Cargin had appealed and were allowed to play league football but not championship as far as I can recall.
With regard to this incident whoever hit a guy from behind fracturing his jaw has proven himself to be both a coward and a thug at the same time. The fact that this coward will not admit doing anything proves him to be an ever greater piece of scum. Due to his actions and his alone his club and his county have suffered and will continue to do so for a very long time ( Antrim are just about getting over the fall out from the Cargin St Pauls row now). There is a lot of hot air on here about due process county boards bla bla bla. Seamus McCloy did not hit anyone the thug did, Seamus McCloy is not covering anything up Ballinderry are, Kielt, Seamus McCloy and Damian Cassidy are not the cause of this problem so stop trying to mudy waters with whataboutery and address the cowardly thug and those who are suppoting his cowardly actions.

[Hungry Exile]

Dont know the specific rule Seanie but a few years back there was a huge row between Cargin and St Pauls at the end of a county final which Cargin were winning. The match was abandoned there were suspensions all round and Cargin ended up getting banned from all football in Antrim for a while. As it was over the winter by the time the leagues had restarted in the spring Cargin had appealed and were allowed to play league football but not championship as far as I can recall.
With regard to this incident whoever hit a guy from behind fracturing his jaw has proven himself to be both a coward and a thug at the same time. The fact that this coward will not admit doing anything proves him to be an ever greater piece of scum. Due to his actions and his alone his club and his county have suffered and will continue to do so for a very long time ( Antrim are just about getting over the fall out from the Cargin St Pauls row now). There is a lot of hot air on here about due process county boards bla bla bla. Seamus McCloy did not hit anyone the thug did, Seamus McCloy is not covering anything up Ballinderry are, Kielt, Seamus McCloy and Damian Cassidy are not the cause of this problem so stop trying to mudy waters with whataboutery and address the cowardly thug and those who are suppoting his cowardly actions.

A few points:
1. I think Cargin had the championship reinstated
2. The act of striking is wrong & should be strictly punished
3. The GAA should not be asking on members of the association to "tell on their club mates."  They may decide to sanction them behind their own closed doors but that's it
4. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty - anything else is gutter British press antics & we as part of the GAA should not be associated with it
5. There has been much written about what happened and I'm sure much of it exaggerated
6. I doubt if everyone on that pitch (including the victim & the culprit) were angels
7. Whatever the outcome Derry as a county will be the worse for this episode
8. Ballinderry will be the stronger as they will adopt a siege mentality in every close match they play in.

[screenmachine]

Thanks Archie, very helpful.

For those who are interested in the rules and facts I looked it up myself and I would imagine they have used rule 146 (d) (3) which actually gives carte blanche to the organising committee to impose whatever penalty they see fit. My guess is it will be appealed and the penalty reduced. I hope the process is dragged out a good bit to make the perpetrator sweat and be very unpopular in his club and community.

My sympathy is with young Kielt. A horrible act that was done to him. I just feel that 25 other lads shouldn't be punished for one lads (very bad) actions. Also, its completely wrong to expect a club chairman to finger someone for this.

The only issue with this is the fact that Ballinderry are due to play Banagher this Sunday in the championship.  Surely if they are not re-instated before this then they will be omitted from this years championship??
I think the county board are trying to pressurise Ballinderry into putting a name forward but whether or not it is too late at this stage will remain to be seen!

[Archie Mitchell]

From the Independent

Derry's Kielt still waiting to hear from Conway since broken jaw
By Colm Keys

Wednesday June 24 2009

James Kielt has still not heard from former Derry team-mate James Conway, who is under suspension for two months as a result of an incident in a club game that left Kilrea clubman Kielt with a fractured jaw.

Kielt wasn't making any issue of the Ballinderry clubman's silence in Dublin yesterday in his role as county ambassador for the VHI Cul camps. The 20-year-old AFL target missed the Ulster SFC semi-final over the weekend because of the injury, while Conway has been dropped from the Derry squad by manager Damian Cassidy.

Ballinderry have been hit hard by the Derry County Board over the incident, with two leading officials given six-month suspensions for the club's failure to co-operate in supplying the name of the player responsible for the incident with Kielt.

Kielt is keen to downplay the incident and suggested that the impact of what happened didn't affect the Derry team's preparations. But some hurt is still apparent.

"It went over the top," he said of the controversy in an effort to put it behind him. "It was a bad incident, it happened. The way things were written in the paper, on websites or whatever, it just went way over the top.

"I don't think it affected the Derry players too much. We just got back to training on the Tuesday night after that incident, he (Conway) was dropped from the panel, I don't think it had any bearing on training or on the heads of the players."

Ironically, the injury took Kielt to the very building in Belfast where he is immersed in studies to become a dentist.

"I was in the Royal (Hospital) and they sent me over to the school of dentistry. That's where I am, that's my home. I had an exam the week before and one of the questions was about a broken jaw!

"It was actually a good break, a clean break, the bone didn't move which was a good thing, it was why I didn't need any wire. It has come on a lot. The last week or two it has come on well. For the first week or two I was sucking Weetabix through a straw, I was hardly able to talk," he recounted.

Kielt said the rumours in circulation last week that he could be ready for the Tyrone game weren't true and that he was still only "hopeful"of being right for the second-round qualifier on July 11.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/derrys-kielt-still-waiting-to-hear-from-conway-since-broken-jaw-1786694.html

I wonder what websites he was talking about.

[full back]

Good to see a bit more of a balanced view on this thread.
On the Derry thread the majority were condemning the Derry CB.
The punishment may not fit the crime, but at the end of the day a lad has his jaw broke, the culprit will not own up to it & the club are protecting the culprit.

The buck has to stop somewhere

[Maguire01]

Since when did a hairline fracture amount to a broken jaw?

Eh? Is a fracture not a break, regardless of its size?

There's a hell of a difference.

In a proper break the jaw needs to be wired closed and in some cases screws inserted or a plate, which may or may not be permanent. You can't talk, apart from mumble, can't open your mouth apart from to take fluids and you can't stress the jaw or the break.
On an Xray you'll hardly see a hairline fracture... (some skeptics might argue you don't need much proof to make a claim for a hairline fracture) - unless with a skilled radiologist - with a break you most often have more than one piece and more than one crack..

Big difference.

A proper break? Wise up - a break is a break. A fracture is a break. How badly it was broken is another story, but if a bone is fractured, it's broken.

[Franko]

It's a whole sorry mess and if the county board have had to rescind the bans now it's becoming a bit of joke all round.

JMohan, could you please enter the real world.  Every man and his dog knows that it was Conway who broke Kielt's jaw.  We hardly need a bloody forensic investigation into this to 'prove' it.

Ah that's ok ... so once the dogs in the street know it sure we can ban whoever we like ... sure no need for investigations, courts or lawyers then ... just ask the dogs. Idiot. 
In the real world as you call it there's a thing called due process ... I didn't notice it changing to the Cassidy/(or is it Bellaghy?) dictatorship overnight.

Cassidy knows it was Conway

Ah that's even better ... the all knowing Cassidy. 

You can't run a successful team when you have that sort of ill feeling between the players.

I agree with that last comment completely - but all he had to do was wait for the CB to make a decision and let them investigate, go through normal, fair channels and then drop him after the CB had made their decision.
OR
Bring the two boys in, meet with them separately then possibly together, see if they could sort it out among themselves - a simple apology may have sorted it there and then and it would have meant he could have had Conway available for Sunday, and not had to play with one midfielder for that game and not put the Ballinderry players in an awkward position now and for the future of his reign.

The CB on the other hand have made a total balls of the thing yet again.  When suspending a player you need to follow the rules of the association, not just make them up as you go along.

Well don't think anyone is arguing with that

What has happened instead is that the GAA has put down a line of intent by banning the club.
Basically it is a statement that if no one from the club will admit to the crime then the club as a whole can take the punishment.

No ... the Derry CB are trying to do this .... not the smartest thing in the book.
We're not at school now where the teacher gives everyone detention because one kid threw something in class. Won't work.

They are hoping it will be a deterrent in the future.
Whether it is right or wrong to do this, I don't know, but I can see why they did it.

It'll never work

if it was conway it makes it an even dirtier act, dont know how he could do that to a young lad 20 years of age knowing he would be training with him and then playing together a number of weeks against their great rivals?  conway hasnt exactly been too public in trying to defend himself though.  I no if that was me being called all the C***** of the day not only within my county, but possibly over the whole of the province and even ireland at this stage i would want to defend myself.  they mustnt like going public in bderry

I don't see how him staying quiet is making much difference? What's he going to say? Accuse Keilt of mouthing to him? Say he didn't mean it? Give a tears and all interview to Paddy Heaney? What difference would it make? As you see here everyone is judge and jury and as one client above said - sure once the dogs in the street know it sure it's over. It's not trial by media - nor should it be. It's trial where it should be - at a proper hearing where he gets a chance to speak then.

this type of incident doesnt auger wel for derry football as a whole.  dont know the whole ins/out of it but i no there some sort of gripe with bderry/county board/everyone else.  this hardly going to help.  if the bderry players quit the county(strong possibility would imagine as their club football will have been stopped) this will weaken the panel/team if they come back at this stage how will morale be?  id say this incident has truely messed up any change derry had of making progress this season

Look the bottom line is that I can't see how future dealings with the CB and Cassidy with Ballinderry will be clouded by this for a long while to come.
Perhaps now that there is no ban there may be a quiet moment for all to reflect and maybe an agreement to suit all might materialise.

No, you are the idiot.  It's because of people like you that we have the CCCC, the DRA, the CAC and any god's amount of other acronyms for bodies where fancy talking solicitors get people off on technicalities.  Conway hit Kielt and broke his jaw, that is a fact.  Are you disputing that?  Why would Cassidy have to wait for an investigation decides this before taking action?  It's the real world.  And yes, a county team is a dictatorship – what else would it be??? Idiot.

[Archie Mitchell]

Todays Irish News

Shamrocks ousted from Derry SFC
By Seamus Maloney
25/06/09

DERRY champions Ballinderry were left stunned yesterday by the news they will not be allowed to defend their title after being thrown out of this year's Championship.

The sanction comes after the incident in a Derry league game between Ballinderry and Kilrea that left Kilrea and Derry player James Kielt with a broken jaw, although Ballinderry's county player James Conway (pictured) had his eight-week suspension set aside by the Derry Hearings Committee on Tuesday night.

Conway was dropped from the county panel after the incident, but his suspension was quashed as the committee deemed there to be insufficient evidence to proceed against him.

The incident that left Kielt with a broken jaw was not seen by the referee and not included in his report to the Competitions Control Committee.

Ballinderry were asked by the Derry board to provide the name of the player involved in the incident with Kielt, but failed to do so.

Originally, the Derry CCC had proposed suspensions that included a six-month ban on all Ballinderry adult teams from participating in Derry league competition.

Club chairman Camillius Quinn and secretary Brian Duffin were handed six-month bans for failing to co-operate with the CCC's investigation.

However, Ballinderry's decision to not to accept the proposed suspensions led to Tuesday night's hearing in front of the Hearings Committee which, while halving the league ban to three months, slapped the reigning county champions with a Championship ban.

Ballinderry, who lost their opening Championship game to Lavey, had been due to face Banagher in the second round on Sunday.

The club can now appeal to the Ulster Council and, if that fails, can refer to matter for arbitration at the Disputes Resolution Authority (DRA).

Speaking to The Irish News on Sunday, before Ballinderry received the Championship ban, Camillius Quinn had said the club would "take the case to the extreme" and explore "every possible avenue to see what we can do."

If the incident was not seen by the referee or not included in his report to the CCC, how can they suspend the club if there is no evidence to say that anything had happened? (Apart from the obvious injury to Kielt)

[magpie seanie]

Todays Irish News

Shamrocks ousted from Derry SFC
By Seamus Maloney
25/06/09

DERRY champions Ballinderry were left stunned yesterday by the news they will not be allowed to defend their title after being thrown out of this year's Championship.

The sanction comes after the incident in a Derry league game between Ballinderry and Kilrea that left Kilrea and Derry player James Kielt with a broken jaw, although Ballinderry's county player James Conway (pictured) had his eight-week suspension set aside by the Derry Hearings Committee on Tuesday night.

Conway was dropped from the county panel after the incident, but his suspension was quashed as the committee deemed there to be insufficient evidence to proceed against him.

The incident that left Kielt with a broken jaw was not seen by the referee and not included in his report to the Competitions Control Committee.

Ballinderry were asked by the Derry board to provide the name of the player involved in the incident with Kielt, but failed to do so.

Originally, the Derry CCC had proposed suspensions that included a six-month ban on all Ballinderry adult teams from participating in Derry league competition.

Club chairman Camillius Quinn and secretary Brian Duffin were handed six-month bans for failing to co-operate with the CCC's investigation.

However, Ballinderry's decision to not to accept the proposed suspensions led to Tuesday night's hearing in front of the Hearings Committee which, while halving the league ban to three months, slapped the reigning county champions with a Championship ban.

Ballinderry, who lost their opening Championship game to Lavey, had been due to face Banagher in the second round on Sunday.

The club can now appeal to the Ulster Council and, if that fails, can refer to matter for arbitration at the Disputes Resolution Authority (DRA).

Speaking to The Irish News on Sunday, before Ballinderry received the Championship ban, Camillius Quinn had said the club would "take the case to the extreme" and explore "every possible avenue to see what we can do."

If the incident was not seen by the referee or not included in his report to the CCC, how can they suspend the club if there is no evidence to say that anything had happened? (Apart from the obvious injury to Kielt)

Did you read the rule I quoted earlier on this thread. You'll find it in the rule book here: http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_guides/official_guide1_june10.pdf