Clerical abuse!

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Well fair enough Nally Stand, if I was incorrect I apologise. It does seem strange however that Gerry Adams appears to have not made a statement on the matter. I am open to correction.

[Nally Stand]

Well fair enough Nally Stand, if I was incorrect I apologise. It does seem strange however that Gerry Adams appears to have not made a statement on the matter. I am open to correction.

Just wanted to correct a distorted point.

(speaking of you being open to correction, any comment to add here yet?)

[Pangurban]

In answer to your question MGHU, i see the Catholic Churches place within Irish Society as being the same as any group, with the same rights,priveleges and responsibilities. I would draw no distinction between them any other groups eg. GAA, ICA,FCA, FF,FG or any grouping you care to mention. Of course like any other Church, by virtue of their calling, there is a greater obligation and responsibility on them to provide moral leadership and advice, but there is no obligation on any citizen to listen to or heed their pronoucements. I realise that this answer does not address the roles previously delegated to them by the State, in education and health care, but the debate on these issues has already begun, and it is up to the people to determine what the future arrangements will be

[Eamonnca1]

Of course like any other Church, by virtue of their calling, there is a greater obligation and responsibility on them to provide moral leadership and advice, but there is no obligation on any citizen to listen to or heed their pronoucements.

...especially priests lecturing about marriage.

[The Iceman]

Of course like any other Church, by virtue of their calling, there is a greater obligation and responsibility on them to provide moral leadership and advice, but there is no obligation on any citizen to listen to or heed their pronoucements.

...especially priests lecturing about marriage.

Lads this thread started off discussing Clerical Abuse and has turned into so much more. Eamonn's comment above being another prime example of a small group of people who continue to hijack threads with their own agenda's, not really interested in debating or discussing the issue at hand but more intent to wind people up with well positioned statements.
This is not a thread on Religion and State, it is not a party political broadcast, nor is it a opportunity to take a pop at people's faith.

Yet again many of you display absolutely no apathy for abuse victims or no regard for the seriousness of this discussion. If you did you wouldn't be hijacking it with your own childish agendas to score points and wind people up.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Well fair enough Nally Stand, if I was incorrect I apologise. It does seem strange however that Gerry Adams appears to have not made a statement on the matter. I am open to correction.

Just wanted to correct a distorted point.

(speaking of you being open to correction, any comment to add here yet?)

Have not opened that link, for the very reason that you get a bit stakerish in debates. I have acknowledged SF response to the report and I welcome it. I am a bit concerned that the leader of the party has no input, but if it is unimportant in this debate you can understand why I may presume this is unimportant in other debates on this board.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

In answer to your question MGHU, i see the Catholic Churches place within Irish Society as being the same as any group, with the same rights,priveleges and responsibilities. I would draw no distinction between them any other groups eg. GAA, ICA,FCA, FF,FG or any grouping you care to mention. Of course like any other Church, by virtue of their calling, there is a greater obligation and responsibility on them to provide moral leadership and advice, but there is no obligation on any citizen to listen to or heed their pronoucements. I realise that this answer does not address the roles previously delegated to them by the State, in education and health care, but the debate on these issues has already begun, and it is up to the people to determine what the future arrangements will be

That was actually a good response Pangurban and one I personally could mostly live with. I do think sporting and religious organisations should try as much as possible to stay out of the governance of a state or its insitutions.

[Eamonnca1]

Of course like any other Church, by virtue of their calling, there is a greater obligation and responsibility on them to provide moral leadership and advice, but there is no obligation on any citizen to listen to or heed their pronoucements.

...especially priests lecturing about marriage.

Lads this thread started off discussing Clerical Abuse and has turned into so much more. Eamonn's comment above being another prime example of a small group of people who continue to hijack threads with their own agenda's, not really interested in debating or discussing the issue at hand but more intent to wind people up with well positioned statements.
This is not a thread on Religion and State, it is not a party political broadcast, nor is it a opportunity to take a pop at people's faith.

Yet again many of you display absolutely no apathy for abuse victims or no regard for the seriousness of this discussion. If you did you wouldn't be hijacking it with your own childish agendas to score points and wind people up.

1 - A comment about the qualifications of priests or having a pop at their claim to a position of 'moral authority' in society is very relevant to the topic of clerical abuse, so my post isn't off-topic at all.

2 - Please learn the difference between apathy, empathy and sympathy. It would be a lot easier to discuss matter with you if it was clear which word you mean to use. 'Apathy' is the opposite of what you seem to think it means.

[orangeman]

Enda Kenny puts the boot into the Vatican :


Taoiseach Enda Kenny has strongly criticised the Vatican for what he said was an attempt to frustrate the Cloyne inquiry, accusing it of downplaying the rape of children to protect its power and reputation.

Mr Kenny was speaking during Dáil statements on the report.

Never before has a Taoiseach used such language in criticising the Catholic Church.

Mr Kenny told the Dáil that the Cloyne Report highlighted the dysfunction, disconnection, elitism, and narcissism that dominate the culture of the Vatican to this day.

The rape and torture of children had been downplayed or 'managed' to uphold, instead, the primacy of the institution, which are its power, standing and 'reputation'.

The hierarchy had proved either unwilling or unable to address what he called the horrors uncovered in successive reports a failure which he said must be devastating for so many good priests.

Mr Kenny said that the Catholic Church needed to be truly and deeply penitent for the wrongdoing it perpetrated hid and denied.

He said that instead of listening to evidence of humiliation and betrayal, the Vatican's reaction had been to parse and analyse it, with the eye of a canon lawyer.

Mr Kenny said this position was the polar opposite of the radicalism, the humility and the compassion that the Church had been founded on.

Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin said what was done was not just to avoid scandal - it involved the wilful refusal to respect basic moral and legal responsibilities.

Mr Martin said no-one had any excuse for not knowing what to do when there was even a suspicion of child abuse.

Sinn Féin's Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin had said the report shows it had learned nothing since the Fr Brendan Smith scandal.


An all-party motion on the Cloyne report condemning the Vatican's role in child protection is being debated in the Dáil.

The motion 'deplores the Vatican's intervention which contributed to the undermining of child protection frameworks and guidelines of the Irish state and the Irish bishops.'

One of the main findings of the report was that the diocese failed to report nine out of 15 complaints made against priests, which 'very clearly should have been reported'.

Vatican spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi, speaking in a personal capacity, has said that there was nothing in the advice given by the papal nuncio in 1997 to encourage bishops to break Irish laws.


He said that the Vatican's advice to Irish bishops on child protection policies could not be interpreted as an invitation to cover up abuse cases.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, Minister for Justice Alan Shatter said the comments were disingenuous and he said he expected a more considered, formal response from the Vatican.

[muppet]

One of the main findings of the report was that the diocese failed to report nine out of 15 complaints made against priests, which 'very clearly should have been reported'.

In any organisation with a responsibility to notify an authority of an event, this would be incredibly damning. Given that the events required to be notified are serious sexual crimes on children this is beyond any reasonable argument. The Church seems to have no shame whatsoever.

Vatican spokesman Fr Federico Lombardi, speaking in a personal capacity, has said that there was nothing in the advice given by the papal nuncio in 1997 to encourage bishops to break Irish laws.

This man answers a question no one has asked. It seeks to pass the book and wash its hands of not only the problem but apparently of the actions of its Irish hierarchy. If the Church cannot accept its direct responsibility for these crimes against children how can it preach, for example, our collective responsibility for original sin? Hypocrisy.

[mylestheslasher]

Well done to Enda for saying what needs to be said, now lets follow it up with some action. Michael Martin had his chance before to be clear and outspoken on this issue, its too late saying it now just because Enda did. He and FF let the catholic church away with murder. Lets see Enda Kick the papal nuncio out of this country, remove our embassy from the Vatican, freeze all payments (grants or otherwise) to the church and start siezing their assets if they don't cough up what they owe (ie only 50% of monies payable to the victims). Time to put this organisation in its place, at the same level as other religions somewhere well below the elected representatives of this country.

[Eamonnca1]

Well done to Enda for saying what needs to be said, now lets follow it up with some action. Michael Martin had his chance before to be clear and outspoken on this issue, its too late saying it now just because Enda did. He and FF let the catholic church away with murder. Lets see Enda Kick the papal nuncio out of this country, remove our embassy from the Vatican, freeze all payments (grants or otherwise) to the church and start siezing their assets if they don't cough up what they owe (ie only 50% of monies payable to the victims). Time to put this organisation in its place, at the same level as other religions somewhere well below the elected representatives of this country.

+1

[The Iceman]

Of course like any other Church, by virtue of their calling, there is a greater obligation and responsibility on them to provide moral leadership and advice, but there is no obligation on any citizen to listen to or heed their pronoucements.

...especially priests lecturing about marriage.

Lads this thread started off discussing Clerical Abuse and has turned into so much more. Eamonn's comment above being another prime example of a small group of people who continue to hijack threads with their own agenda's, not really interested in debating or discussing the issue at hand but more intent to wind people up with well positioned statements.
This is not a thread on Religion and State, it is not a party political broadcast, nor is it a opportunity to take a pop at people's faith.

Yet again many of you display absolutely no apathy for abuse victims or no regard for the seriousness of this discussion. If you did you wouldn't be hijacking it with your own childish agendas to score points and wind people up.

1 - A comment about the qualifications of priests or having a pop at their claim to a position of 'moral authority' in society is very relevant to the topic of clerical abuse, so my post isn't off-topic at all.

2 - Please learn the difference between apathy, empathy and sympathy. It would be a lot easier to discuss matter with you if it was clear which word you mean to use. 'Apathy' is the opposite of what you seem to think it means.

2. My bad on apathy. I should have wrote empathy.Maybe if I seen it a bit more from you I would understand what it is

1. The qualifications of clergy in general or whether or not, in general, they have any claim to a 'moral authority' is not relevant in this discussion. Specific priests, based on their actions, can be labeled. But everyone cannot be painted with the same brush.

And I am happy to hear and agree with all that Enda Kenny said.

[lawnseed]

hold your horses lads before you all become the enda fan club again like you did about a hundred days ago.. lets just see exactly where enda is coming from, could it be that the main reason mr kenny and his cohorts are gettiin lippy is because he wants to draw attention away from his own governments short comings and possibly the fact that thus far the catholic church have only come up with a couple of million toward the victoms fund. (we need the cash) the irish government have had access to this information for years various politicians have chose to ignore it.. the reason they have choosen to speak out now is because they feel the voting public have an appetite for it.. not because its the right thing to do. imo the reason  politicians havent come out before is because they were afraid of the catholic church.. afraid of its power and influence.. where do these guys head when they are looking for support.. they stand outside the church imagine if a priest went out and chased them? they'd be fukd.. they wouldnt get a dozen votes. but now its safe to slag off the church but only the crowd in rome of course our crowd are ok.. cause they have relations who can vote.. cant say too much we might offend someones brother etc.. politicians/clergy/bankers apart form signing your passport photos not much use at all 

[orangeman]

I'm no fan of Kenny but at least he had the balls to come out with it. Not like a lot of our poilitical leaders who were mealy mouthed at best.

Now the floodgates have opened. It's a very, very significant day in Ireland. Never before has the Irish govt come out so publicly and castigated the Vatican.

Whatever Kenny's motives are / were, fair dues to him.