Population of Ireland to reach 6.7million by 2060

[stephenite]

OK - I'll be a bit more simplified

In 2003 Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo stated that :

The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

However this argument was largley discredited by, amongst others the US Centre for Disease Control who state :

Laboratory studies have demonstrated that latex condoms provide an essentially impermeable barrier to particles the size of STD pathogens.

However the Cardinal in his wisdom believes that Condoms should be regulated in the same way the cigarettes are, outrageously inferring that condoms are bad for your health :

These margins of uncertainty...should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger.

And this disgraceful inference apparently seeps down to the churchs minions who do the necessary when preaching to their flock - Archbishop Raphael Ndingi Nzeki of Nairobi states:

Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms.

Here's a spokesperson from the WHO on the churchs stance

Statements like this are quite dangerous. We are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects around 42 million. There is so much evidence to show that condoms don't let sexually transmitted infections like HIV through. Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong.
Condoms are not a magic bullet that makes it impossible to spread HIV, but studies suggest it does reduce the risk of AIDS transmission by up to 90 percent. Spreading misinformation and lies like this is simply unconscionable.

Now you can either chose to believe the church and it's effective propoganda machine or you can chose to believe what is presented by qualified scientists that I don't believe have any moral stakeholding in the argument in the same way the ignorant of Rome do.

The facts in Africa speak for themselves, in terms of the deathrate at least, and I believe very strongly and passionately that the church has, at the very least, lent a hand to the ongoing genocide of millions of people and countless generations in Africa through their so called moral teachings. 

[Pangurban]

Stephenite you state....Now you can either chose to believe the church and it's effective propoganda machine or you can chose to believe what is presented by qualified scientists....yet you chose to ignore the statements from respected named scientists that i presented you with. As for your qoting of an un-named source that Condoms are impenetrable to the HIV virus, perhaps that same source could enlighten us as to why so many unwanted pregancies are caused by Condom failure. If Spermatoza can penetrate a Condom then so also can a Virus, as any Doctor you care too talk to will testify. You also chose to misquote and misrepresent the statements from Church spokesman, who were referring to the active promotion of a Condom culture which encouraged promiscuity, rather than the efficacy of their use. The fact is that just as their are people within the church who are agenda driven, so also within the ranks of the WHO and the UN are people with thier own agenda, by following the money you can easily identify them. Many are on retainers from the drug and condom manufactures. The next time you have cause to refer to some of their claimed independent research documents, have a look at the small print and see who funded it. At least the church has a moral position which desires the welfare of each individual and not their money, even if they occasionally are ham-fisted about obtaining it. Incidentally your emotive use of derogotary phrases when referring to spokesmen from the church, suggests that you have your own agenda and are not the dispassionate seeker of truth , prepared to listen to a counter argument

[stephenite]

The most recent of your sources was from 1991!!!! Science moves quickly these days.

I started this in response to your post - I'm not that interested in whether or not a condom is an effective contraceptive to be honest, hasn't failed me or anyone I know incidentally but that's beside the point. It's the unesseccary genocide that is being perpetrated against the poverty stricken people of Africa by a virus, and if the WHO tell me that condoms are 90% more likely to stop the spread of this disease I'll chose to believe them above a self serving organisation who's very existence is dependent on this philosophy of not "allowing" to wear condoms when engaging in sexual activities.
The reason for this is that I believe the Catholic Church to be a corrupt self serving organisation - has been since it was formed and how they've managed to get this far really does beggar belief. Thankfully people seem to be waking up to it slowly.


I've just called my mate who's a doctor - who states that in way can a spermatoza or a virus pass through any modern condom . You did ask.

Where have I misquoted and misrepresented the statements of the Church's spokesmen? I'd appreciate you pointing that out?

I do have an agenda of my own - I firmly believe in science over faith, and I particularly resent those with a moral agenda causing giref and suffering to those that are least able to protect themselves - I don't care if some scienticts and WHO officials are getting bankrolled by Durex - the only figures that concern me are the huge numbers of people dying from a disease that can be presented.

I should point out again that I am not blaming the catholic church for the creation of/spread of AIDS, but I feel strongly that they have a moral obligation to assist in saving lives and I also feel that they are actively encouraging the spread of the diesease through the ignorance of their beliefs. So of course I am emotive about the issue, it's really bloody important - too important.

[Niall Quinn]

Science moves quickly these days.

It sure does stephenite.
Human beings are now thought to have roamed this planet for some 200k years, and their imprint on the landscape is both brilliant and shocking.
But when you consider that ipods, computers, airplanes, cars, electricity, TV & the ECG are all new to the last 100 odd years, it really makes you wonder what the feck they were doing for the first 199.9k anniversaries? I mean you can only hark back to the importance of the wheel so often can't you?
I think our forefathers want to be taking a good long, hard look at themselves.

[Pangurban]

Quote from Stephenite....
I've just called my mate who's a doctor - who states that in way can a spermatoza or a virus pass through any modern condom

Faced with imbecilic statements like that, which i find impossible to credit would have been made by any Doctor, i see no point in continuing this discussion, with someone whose mind is closed and admits to a level of hate of those who oppose his narrow, blinkered view

[mylestheslasher]

Pangurban - I find myself agreeing strongly with Stephenite and Evil genius. Is it your opinion that condoms have no place in the prevention of the spreading of aids? You say the who are coming around to thinking that the condom is not the answer but all the science you list is very old, most of it from the 80's when the treatment of aids was non existant. Is this the science that has convinced the who to do a U turn and if so why has it taken them since 1991 to come to that conclusion. As far as I can see most of those reports are about the quality of the condom which is hardly a reason to bin the idea, is it. I'd imagine through harmonising international standards the quality of condoms could be controlled as all "medical devices'' are (i'd be shocked if this was not already the case). But at the back of it all I doubt your opinion has anything to do with the success of the condom in preventing aids and more to do with justifying the catholic churchs disgraceful position on this matter. Tell me what is the position of all the african aid agencies in africa? The churchs position is based on upholding their principles, it is worth noting  on this thread especially, that during the famine the british government had similar "principles" on handing out food to the starving, fearing it would upset world economics.

[tyssam5]

The famine had a relatively small effect on counties north of Cavan/Monaghan. Probably as those counties in the North had some decent industry for the time. I believe the worst affected were actually those counties in the north midlands like Cavan, Roscommon, Longford.

I was always under the vague impression that the Famine had little effect in the North - at least relative to the terrible conditions in the South and West. More recently, however, I have come to realise that it nonetheless had a serious impact throughout even the North eastern Counties, including an influx of starving refugees into Belfast. Afaik, many of these latter were buried in (preumably unmarked graves in) the Friars Bush cemetary.
That said, the Famine's impact was notably lesser in the Northern counties. As I understand it, this was for three basic, essentially related, reasons.
First, there were fewer absentee Landlords in NE Ulster than in the rest of Ireland. As such, these were less likely to be oblivious or uncaring as to the scale of the catastrophe. For example, if you come across a long, straight road in rural Ulster, not seeming to go anywhere bvery important, it is often said to be a "Famine [Relief] Road"
Second. as MTS alludes, there was a degree of industry in Ulster (e.g. Linen), often founded or capitalised by the wealthy upper classes.
Third, and most importantly, as a legacy of the Plantation, Land Law in the north was often governed by "Ulster Custom", unlike the rest of Ireland. At the time of the Plantation, the Crown wanted to encourage long-term investment and settlement by all classes in Ulster, so the UC grew up, guaranteeing amongst other things, the "3 F's" - Fixity (security) of tenure, Fair rents and Freedom of Tenants to sell their tenancies.
As a consequence, tenant farmers were encouraged/rewarded for improving their land (ploughing, drainage, farm buildings etc), so that the land was more productive. And Landlords were prevented from screwing every penny out of their tenants by simply increasing rents. Consequently, the tenantry were less likely to be reduced to pure subsistance farming, where they sold their cereal crops for rent and lived off potatoes. And as tenants' families grew, they were less likely to sub-divide their holdings into ever smaller plots, leaving them vulnerable to even minor crop failures, never mind wholesale blight.

A quick Google brought up an interesting article on this subject by the Creggan Historical Society in Cullyhanna, South Armagh:
http://www.cregganhistory.co.uk/landandloss.htm

That is correct. There is a cholera mound in the corner of the cemetary, the Stranmillis Rd/Muesum corner. The wall comes out around it. You cna see the mound clearly from the Ashby building (QUB).

Just found this site on it: http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/375055/irish_horror_and_history_friars_bush.html?cat=37

[stephenite]

Quote from Stephenite....
I've just called my mate who's a doctor - who states that in way can a spermatoza or a virus pass through any modern condom

Faced with imbecilic statements like that, which i find impossible to credit would have been made by any Doctor, i see no point in continuing this discussion, with someone whose mind is closed and admits to a level of hate of those who oppose his narrow, blinkered view

It was in response to an imbecellic question " ask any doctor you care to consult" - and I would have considered that the fact I said "you did ask" as perhaps reflecting that fact. By all means however use this minor distraction as a way out.

You have your faith which you appear to use to justify anything - and to a ceratin extent I admire that - and I don't see any point in continuing either, as someone like me is never going to be able to shake that faith.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

I don't blame the Catholic "church" or believe that the gangsters, thugs and rapists that run it are solely responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa or indeed Europe - but their policies towards contraception have done nothing to help uneducated people without access to the resources that we have.

You sir are a complete an utter cnut for that statement!
You were arguing your point quite reasonabily until you came out with that complete shite, shame, shame on you and shame on who follows you.
You have a gripe with the Catholic church/religion then argue your point, don't lower yourself to slandering the whole faith with your childish, petty and disgusting generalisations!  Shame.

[stephenite]

Read the post before taking off an hysterical drunken rant at 3am and see who I slandered  - those that run it - and not an apology will I make for it. The vatican has been one of the most corrupt and despicable organisations over the centuries, and there policies on this subject are a disgrace

Not quite the generalisation you might think where I slandered an entire flock of catholics the world over.

Shame ineed

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Read the post before taking off an hysterical drunken rant at 3am and see who I slandered  - those that run it - and not an apology will I make for it. The vatican has been one of the most corrupt and despicable organisations over the centuries, and there policies on this subject are a disgrace

Not quite the generalisation you might think where I slandered an entire flock of catholics the world over.

Shame ineed

You slag of the people who run it - then you are slagging of the everyday Catholic's around the world who look to these people for their guidence, so yes shame indeed.
Btw slackjaw, I was neither hysterical nor drunk when I made that post, I couldn't sleep. 

[maddog]

In some parts of Africa its a widley held belief that a cure for aids is having sex with very young girls

I think in South Africa its having sex with a virgin which invariably means youngsters. This is the bullshit spread by the JuJu man

[his holiness nb]

the Catholic "church" have been involved in a malicious and pre-meditated dis-information campaign in Africa to discredit condoms as a means of helping stop the spread the virus - therefore responsible in some small part for the spread of death. Well done on that one Jesus

Stephenite, I agree with a lot of your comments, but the likes of the comment highlighted above really make you look spiteful towards all aspects of the catholic religion (note I said religion, not church).
I know you dont believe, but if, by chance, there was a man called Jesus Christ (whether god or not), none of his teachings recorded in the bible are evil. His general message was to be good to each other, and condoms or aids werent an issue in his day.
If others, thousands of years later, developed rules and made statements in what they beleived to be his name, you can hardy blame Jesus himself for them.

I have several issues with a lot of the churches preachings and actions, but still believe a god exists.

Whatever about the church itself, you cant pin this one on Jesus, the human.

[stephenite]

Missing the point entirely HNB, and with a name like that 

Who does the Pope ,supposedly, get his guidance from on all matters?