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[Why can we not have a stadium where you can get the same feeling of pride walking into it as you do when going into Croke Park and its only up the road.]

Completely agree, get it built if GAA members were asked to contribute £1 each to make up the short fall I'm sure they would do it in a heart beat. The GAA community in the north need this stadium and they needed it yesterday.

I for one would not even contribute the steam off my piss.
If it goes ahead as planned, its hanging a massive millstone around the neck of the Ulster Council (UC) for decades, and that will have real connotations for UC coaching development etc.


When the ongoing maintenance costs of the ivory towers becomes clear in due course, the level of stupidity in calling for this stadium as currently designed will also become crystal clear.



I'd much rather put my money into any club looking to make a second pitch or changing rooms - something of far more benefit.

Unreal.....can you not see past the nose on your face, future generations should have this stadium.
The great days of going to Clones on Ulster final day are a thing of the past, and live only in our heads.
Why can we not have a stadium where you can get the same feeling of pride walking into it as you do when going into Croke Park and its only up the road.

Why can I not have a private jet? I'd be proud as punch if I had one of those.

So now we're comparing an environmentally toxic toy for a billionaire , to a project that will bring jobs and investment to a socially deprived and chronically underfunded area, with a £172m head start . It will be an opportunity for the North to have a multi sports,recreation and concert venue that gives us something to feel good about, for once.
Given that uk and stormont government are investing monies and saying we may have to scale back, presumably they can help streamline the planning process, given that the changes are going to be less intrusive for the locals .
Presumably with that level of funding they'll have significant input into design and procurement to ensure value for that money.
If I had a choice between stretching GAA coffers for a 34500 all seater stadium , or a 28000 seater/terraced , cost effective ,sustainable , daily usage venue that is designed to provide income, investment and opportunity, i'd take the latter all day long . The GAA has precedent in the Croke Park success , and those that get the boot into the GAA should look to the success of Croke Park , and running functional ~20000 capacity stadia in almost every county in Ireland . In Ulster alone ,provincial towns with poor infrastructure : Omagh , Derry , newry EnnisKillen Armagh Cavan ballybofey and Clones , have successful stadia,  yet people think the GAA can't run a slightly bigger stadium in the second biggest city in Ireland , with a £172m head start.

West Belfast deserves this investment, the GAA deserves this investment , the focus should be on making it an economic success , and those that have stomped up £172m clearly think it can be.
This is more than a GAA stadium , it's the only venue that can host large concerts, soccer rugby NFL and GAA matches, and it's in a deprived area that needs investment , so it's not just £172m into GAA coffers . It's an opportunity for this region to have its own marquee venue.
Much as government and other funders should not invest , if there isn't long term social and economic benefit, the GAA should not be
Taking more money off their members unless they see a return , rather than a millstone , for a large stadium that is not socially and economically a success.
I suspect the fear of that socio-economic success for the GAA and West Belfast is what drives many objectors , rather than a fear it will cost the economy  .

Surely we are the only place in the world where we get a £50m handout and people are still gurning.
1. £50m is the very least the British government should be giving to West Belfast after presiding over years of underfunding and discrimination of the nationalist population here.
2. The GAA is thriving , yet there continues to be ridiculous council allocation of pitches to soccer as opposed to GAA. Fair play to IFA and Ulster rugby who have been earning money on their stadia for years whilst the GAA haven't had that opportunity ( not all of their own making). The GAA is getting what they deserve , and they're the best placed organisation to make this work given the success of Croke Park , and the volunteer base they can tap in to , to help sustainability .
3. The emotive use of health and education , argument is immature analysis ( Westminster won't transfer the £50m into health , education ) , and takes no account that health and education here are draining money because for political reasons again , they won't pool resources to provide the very best systems. Importantly , health and education will always cost money, but appropriate investment in sport/recreation, should actually generate income and additional investment , boosting the economy
4. There appears to be nearly £180m available as it stands , can additional funds be found by the GAA, stormont and Dublin , business sector to provide the most functional stadium possible for Irelands second city? Say we max out at £250m for a ~ 28k stadium(capable of extension in the future if needed) which is about right for a region the size of Ulster .
5. Stormont and other investors contributing to this project must put the squeeze on planners to work quicker thru proposals for what should be a smaller , less intrusive, more functional and sustainable stadium
6. All stakeholders have a responsibility to  demand that this large investment is spent for sustainable economic and feelgood benefit... should have daily use for meeting's conventions,  recreation, whilst being able to host marquee games in soccer rugby nfl etc.
7. This will be the most modern stadium in Europe , we should make it the best by learning from other projects , clearly there isn't enough  experience on this island to develop the most cost effective , sustainable stadium possible
8. Politically all the community needs to embrace this massive opportunity for all


 

Interesting that these alleged GAA incompetents were fit to lobby and secure multi millions from the Irish government , but apparently get no traction from Stormont/Uk, who have already funded the other projects detailed.

I'd agree with an early poster that the GAA needs to park any historical ego around Casement.
The initial plans were not appropriate, the Euro solution was not likely to be sustainable.
A revised business  case , focussing on sustainable income generation which given precedent set elsewhere can pay off the initial government investment through Tax generation alone .
Should'nt  be all-seater , which will save build and maintenance cost and keep admission fees down .
A compact 26k arena is more than adequate, and should be designed to be atmosphere generating even when half full.
A concert venue
A conference venue .
Neighbouring infrastructure optimisation with a "village" effect including pubs , catering, entertainment and accommodation.

All above designed around sustainability and future income generation , so as not to be a millstone around the community and GAA members.
Where stadia are different to most other infrastructure, there is an opportunity for income generation.

Let's be creative and look at recent new stadia in Europe built within a realistic budget with a heavy emphasis on income generating as above.

A revised budget on these sustainable terms will still require considerable extra capital , but if the business case adds up, and it must, then harnessing cross-party support must be a given.

We're going around in circles .
What I don't understand is that Absolutely Nobody is arguing that GAA and SF politicians haven't made historic mistakes here.
But as soon as we call out a party that has been in power here during that time , or the successive UK governments we're wheeling out the sectarian card.

So before you trip over yourselves to let unionism off the hook on these matters. Ask yourselves are u happy with unionisms attitude to legacy investigations, A5 , Irish language . Where's the accountability there ?

Why did you quote my post?
Your reply bears zero relevance to it.

Apologies, Perhaps I need to explain more simply for you  .
SF and others didn't cover themselves in glory in this project , but what is clear is that their partners in government , the DUp have never shown enthusiasm for what should be a marquee project for this region, which could attract significant "external" funding from UK government to add to an incredible freebie from the ROI. And give us the only realistic option for a large stadium/concert venue to match mist other regions in Europe. This negativity happens to be matched by similar approach from much of unionism for Irish language projects or indeed the A5.  In the same timeframe SF and other nationalists parties were happy to champion 4 other projects in unionist areas, and rightly so. They didn't undermine the Titanic project despite the sectarian ignominy of the shipyards. Nor Windsor despite Sectarian history , or ravenhill or ice bowl despite that being for minority sports. But the DUP remain begrudging to the GAA and Gordon Lyons is the latest incarnation of that. Get the boot into SF if you wish but your opinion would have far more credibility if you called out the DUP's persistent anti-GAA stance .

Gordon Lyons has held the position for how long?
Sinn Féin held the same position for how many years during the Casement process? How far did they move the project?
But the DUP......

I genuinely hate referring to the unionist community and nationalist community, as that's part of the problem. In our work and daily lives the 2 community mindset plays no part for most of us. People want the same quality of life, employment financial security, health , education , infrastructure, no matter where they're from. In reality there is only 1 society here and viewing it as 2 communities has stifled development .    The stadium fiasco is a good example of this. An economically viable stadium for concerts and all sports didn't happen , so rugby and soccer ploughed ahead , and the concert, largest crowd stadium was chosen for the GAA.
The GAA with external support were ambitious to meet those needs, and thought they'd plough ahead as well, but ~15 years ago , got it wrong around community engagement and planning . The IFA were actually pulled over the coals around their governance around the same time, but thankfully they were allowed to move on without begrudgery snd  animosity from "nationalist " politicians .
From the time that casement was muted 4 major recreation projects have been developed in "unionist" areas : titanic , ravenhill, Windsor , and the ice bowl . To my knowledge there was nothing but support from nationalist politicians and community for these projects. In fact Ravenhill was developed bordering what has probably become a nationalist area of South Belfast and the goodwill of the nationalist community and politicians towards ravenhill is excellent.
Everybody across the whole community is delighted to see these recreational projects proceed.
However with casement , much of unionist politicians and community continue to be begrudging . The fact that this begrudgery is mirrored around Irish language tells its own story. That begrudgery is allowed to persist if it's unchallenged because some "nationalists" put party political rivalry before community development.
It is clear that there is sectarian motivation in giving casement and Irish language , a bad rep , and questioning finance , when money has been spent elsewhere .
This financial argument persists even though We are literally getting a handout from ROI, , and such a stadium/concert venue must be income generating
Let's get up of our knees , and all get behind the marquee stadium/venue this region needs. Ask Croke Park if you doubt that a well designed venue can't generate considerable income and esteem

Restore Casement to an enhanced modern version of its former self.  Covered stand the length of the pitch at one side, recreate the bowl around the other three sides with seating and terracing, a bit like the Gaelic Grounds.  There was no finer sight on a summers day than a packed Casement. 

Would agree , more compact , terraced/seated  venue would be best with a reappraised business plan

Can any of you show me proof of where the DUP are blocking the building of Casement?

I think the answer to that would be no.

I genuinely font understand either the naivety or doormat mentality of some from an "Irish " background in the 6 counties.

To my knowledge there was nothing but support for ravenhill and Windsor from nationalist politicians , and rightly so.
The casement project is slightly different to ravenhill/Windsor in that it had a 3 strand benefit : a well overdue economic boost to the most deprived area in the North, a stadium for GAA in Ulster, a fit for purpose outdoor concert venue for the North. The finance was commensurate with those goals, and similar funding for soccer was divided between Windsor and grass toots( I'd probably have preferred that split for the GAA as well. Rugby funding was less as it's a minority sport compared to soccer and GAA.
There were clear mistakes on the GAA's part in developing Casement , but there were real governance concerns in the IFA during the Windsor  process.
But the DUP has been in power during this whole casement process but at no stage have they positively sought solutions and promoted a stadium for the benefit of all.
During that same period there have been historic and continued apathy and or obstruction for Irish language promotion.
The latest DUp sports minister Gordon Lyons can't even bring himself to liaise positively with the GAA. He has the chance to influence British government to develop the only credible option for a large stadium and concert venue for all, and even influence that development and the required governance. But as with the Irish language the attitude to the GAA is begrudging and not in the spirit of the GFA which promotes equal legitimacy of both cultural traditions in the North.
That begrudging apathy has been successful
In having persistent " bad rep" for Casement which continues to stifle progress.
Tbf I think the GAA needs to be more pro-active in rethinking Casement as a "fit for purpose" income generating stadium/concert venue . The precedent for this has been set in many similar European cities, but tbf you wouldn't have half the politicians in these European cities shooting themselves and the community in the foot .
When we look at the Croke Park example , the  community development and overall tax revenue dwarfs the initial government investment .
Should it cost £400m? No
Should we go with what we have , and have a high cost venue that is not "fit for purpose ".
Should we have a modest Antrim stadium with money also for grassroots , like soccer ? Possibly.

Should we  have  a 18k seated, 10k terraced, compact quality venue for all, that generates investment , income and community esteem ? Absolutely

I'd say it's time for a  reappraisal and a concerted effort by all to get the stadium/concert venue we need, including one that will be income generating and sustainable

No one would deny the Ulster Council messed up, Jasus they'd secretly admit that themselves but a lot of you are missing the point here. This is the Union and DUP saying F**K you fenians, you're getting f**k all from us. They are currently proud of themselves for stalling the project. It's exactly the same with the Irish signs at the new Train station...no one is doubting they messed up by not having them on the original signage and to spend that money on new signage is ludicrous but the Union and the DUP do not want anything Irish, it's not about the money for them, it's just because it Irish.
They still have it in their heads that support for the GAA is like buying weapons for the IRA, that's how they've always thought and haven't changed one bit. They gave £50m for a fecking ICE Bowl in one of the strongest loyalist areas in the Country and no one batted an eyelid and make no mistake about it if they had plans to upgrade Windsor Park the money would be found from somewhere.
They want us all to die or go away, or as they put it..."go back home to Dublin", the irony from English and Scottish settlers.
So to recap, yes we have shot ourselves in the foot and seem to be quite good at it but please don't lose sight of what this is all about...It's anti Irish...FULL STOP!!!

100% illdecide.

But to some on here it's.. 'they're as bad as each other' type of waffle.

It's a recurrent theme to be fair , and dismissing it as " we're as bad as each other " is one of the reasons it's recurrent.

I actually disagree that Casement and signage funding are ludicrous.
But The simplistic view that money we save on sports or cultural projects is ploughed in to providing more nurses in to A&E in the Royal , is actually ludicrous .
There are enough challenges for all of us going forward locally and globally , with some horrendous things on our news daily .
Daily life isn't easy but it's made more bearable by the good things in life : sport and recreation, music and the Arts , cultural expression . Many of these generate income but sometimes it's actually not about  money, it's about fostering , and promoting the enjoyable things in life .
The GAA invested heavily in Croke Park years ago and I thought it was crazy , but look at the enjoyment , opportunities and pride it has given us in hosting Gaelic games and other events in the last 30 years. As it happens it's also generated massive income , investment and opportunities for the GAA and community .

Personally I would rethink the Casement project now almost 20 years after it was originally muted, to ensure we get the most out of it for the GAA, local, regional and national community .
Crowds are not as big as they used to be and  TV developments by may make them smaller again. A compact atmosphere generating 24-28k venue would be better and Why all-seater? Ulster needs a marquee GAA venue and a concert/conferencing venue for all. West Belfast deserves the investment and opportunities that were envisaged . The British government should be squeezed for every penny we can get off them, because they owe us. They engendered and have presided over a sectarian statelet, starting off with over 90% of the GDP of the island and ending up as an economic backwater where progression and ambition is stifled at every turn.
Do I think it's ludicrous to invest in giving us what we deserve and every other region on these islands has ? No.
Do I think promoting indigenous language is ludicrous ? No
Do I think government financing the good things in life is ludicrous? No
Do I think investing in progress and community esteem , and a long overdue feel good factor is ludicrous? No


Those , particularly from an Irish background here , who don't call out the clear sectarian motivation behind stalling casement , A5 , and Language promotion , are doing us all a disservice.

I think the design of casement needs to be re-visited with a fresh business plan around opportunities and value for money. A marquee stadium and concert venue for the North, bringing significant investment into West Belfast would be some statement .

They should employ whoever is doing the new IFA centre. According to bbcni website they're building a state of the art , centre of excellence , 50 acre green field site , 5 pitches , 1 indoors, with spectator , meeting and medical facilities , all for £8-10 million. Must be a different contractor doing that refurbishment of the school pitch  in Derry for £710000, though I see that's not a problem as the EA don't need to apply to themselves for that money🙈.
The BBC also took the opportunity to flag up the estimate of £450m for Casement to meet UEFA specification!
Call me  paranoid 🙈🤔

I think the design of casement needs to be re-visited with a fresh business plan around opportunities and value for money. A marquee stadium and concert venue for the North, bringing significant investment into West Belfast would be some statement .

They should employ whoever is doing the new IFA centre. According to bbcni website they're building a state of the art , centre of excellence , 50 acre green field site , 5 pitches , 1 indoors, with spectator , meeting and medical facilities , all for £8-10 million. Must be a different contractor doing that refurbishment of the school pitch  in Derry for £710000, though I see that's not a problem as the EA don't need to apply to themselves for that money🙈.
The BBC also took the opportunity to flag up the estimate of £450m for Casement to meet UEFA specification!
Call me  paranoid 🙈🤔

Good points as a starting framework, but need further context .


This whole fiasco is a microcosm of what's wrong with the North. Progress delayed by division.
There was an opportunity to have a marquee world leading stadium for all sports that was missed...that was not of the  GAA's making.

Construction costs have gone up considerably  since £62m proposed in 2011.

Since 2011 the GAA have incurred considerable costs  and lost revenue opportunities due to delays ( some of which they contributed to)

Neither Kingspan nor Windsor are equipped as the proposed regional marquee Mega concert and conferencing venue. To host major concerts like Croke Park or Aviva does , a large new design is necessary, and the GAA was envisaged to provide this in a new Casement Park .

Casement park's location in a woefully under resourced and under developed West Belfast , is also a factor as the proposed new stadium would attract new investment, jobs and opportunities for an area that suffered more than most due to the troubles and the 50 years of discrimination that preceded it.

What would I like to see:

A 28k partially end terraced compact , atmosphere generating venue for Ulster and all-Ireland championship matches , available also for big soccer , rugby and Nfl .
Include it as a concert and conferencing venue with infrastructure to match eg hotel ........ linking in with private sector for funding and enterprise .

A change of attitude from a small number of unionists who to date have been obstructive and gloating over Casements failure.
Even for unionists surely they can see , that Euros  was a missed opportunity but other opportunities will come around again and their beloved NI still can't host .

Imagine if there  was a venue here to host major world artists and major world sporting events .

The Irish government will stump up more , and so should the Stormont and Westminster to "level up" investment for NI and west Belfast in particular .

Your points re German stadiums are well made, surely there's more cost effective budget for this , and the £400m mentioned by some was a figure plucked out of the air to frighten off funders.


Let's get it built and actually have something for the whole community here to be proud of . For unionists surely they're envious of every major city in Britain having marquee venues and yet this supposed part of the same uk have nothing even remotely comparable .

Ulster championship matches in general have a great atmosphere but many other matches don't . The point I'm making is that though the sport is poor fare, Ulster rugby regularly fill a compact stadium and are imaginative about the occasion .
Gaa has it too easy :strong rivalry , big stadia , plenty of scores,  so they are by less creative about making the product more attractive

I'd be interested in posters views on rugby , though I suspect it won't be representative as many stay clear of the rugby thread and are now steering clear of watching rugby.
Whereas the IRFU deserve enormous credit for their management of the Irish team since the professional era, we are still falling short.
I admit that I don't get this business of Ireland being a top team in the world (on the basis of equations, coefficients etc , in what many of us consider as "friendlies"). Yet we still can't advance beyond the quarter finals of the World cup, even though getting to the quarter finals is a gimme , due to seeding and the fact that in only a handful of countries is rugby a major sport.
I think the fact that it's an All-Ireland team is a major plus , and though not perfect , it's All-Ireland ethos is an example and not just for sport.
Despite the hype from mainly the Dublin media , the fact remains that rugby in Ireland remains a minor sport and in reality it has advanced little beyond a small number of schools ( many elitist).

There's wall to wall complaint from the same Dublin media , about how unwatchable Gaelic football has become , but when is somebody going to call out Rugby.

This is only my opinion , but tbf shared by many people I know.
It's actually a dreadful sport to watch ( maybe just for those that never played it). And that's on TV , knowledgeable rugby friends of mine will admit it's even harder to enjoy the game in person , without camera angles , replays  and commentary/analysis.
Many friends who go to Ravenhill or Aviva , admit they're there for the beers and often don't even watch the match.

I'm going to throw it out there for comment, but that was absolutely dreadful to watch yesterday . Handling errors, kicking errors , baffling penalty concessions, risky collisions , stop-start.
We kid ourselves , as Ireland is competitive on a world stage and we'll cheer anyone wearing a green jersey , but where is the "Wow factor ". By comparison I just flicked on the TV last Saturday and watched the Dublin Hurling final which was a brilliant game , totally compelling . Riain O'Neill taking the All-Ireland by the scruff of the neck . Rhys McCleneghan winning gold . Champions league etc etc .

By comparison , the sky commentators were homing in on the fact that Finlay Bealham's hip moved slightly to concede a penalty in a scrum. Less exciting than tug of war . Raving about kicks that just happen to bounce the right way. Crucial penalties conceded cheaply. Empty the bench to rest professional  athletes  that aren't expected to complete a full game .

We've wall to wall barracking of Gaelic football by the Dublin media , when will we hear them negative about rugby as a spectacle? Maybe they went to "rugby schools" and understand it better than the rest of us, but for me , the hype around rugby is not matched by the game as a spectacle .

Would agree re last nights game, it was poor spectacle, errors galore, like watching an Ireland game from a 20 years ago, especially the missed tackles nevermind the unforced handling errors. I'd far rather watch a game of rugby than a soccer match, football, though can be a tough watch but there's a load of emotion attachment whether it's the club or the county.

Couple of questions, your Aviva / Ravenhill friends, what do they do when the game is on, apart from drink overpriced beer?  Personally I love attending the internationals with the old man / brothers, a great sporting day out, beers too of course!

Also on the hype part, I cannot understand why people get all hot and bothered about it, whether it's a boxer, a footballer, Ireland rugby etc, surely others opinions shouldn't matter? An eyebrow raiser

Each to their own

And re Marty's comment re clearing out the old guard, should obviously be phased, but there was half a dozen men there last night, most on the bench right enough who should have been put out to pasture

They joke about not watching the match but enjoying the occasion .

There's a lesson in that . A couple of the lads are from a GAA background are attracted by the Friday night , after work , social occasion. Ravenhill though not perfect is an attractive compact stadium, regularly filled as small capacity, leading to a family feel about it . Smaller pitch , so closer to players. Rugby are  A bit more creative about the occasion . Thomond park and Aviva also are good stadia .
Gaa by comparison don't have to work too hard. Local connection usually, quality rivalries , tradition , big stadia.


I think the GAA could market our games better, make them more of an occasion. Have packages to attract bigger crowds and have them concentrated for more atmosphere, and have a word with RTE about keeping negative pundits off-air


Rugby withe the help of Dublin media have got the marketing right , and fair play to them, because the sport is dreadful to watch

 

I'd be interested in posters views on rugby , though I suspect it won't be representative as many stay clear of the rugby thread and are now steering clear of watching rugby.
Whereas the IRFU deserve enormous credit for their management of the Irish team since the professional era, we are still falling short.
I admit that I don't get this business of Ireland being a top team in the world (on the basis of equations, coefficients etc , in what many of us consider as "friendlies"). Yet we still can't advance beyond the quarter finals of the World cup, even though getting to the quarter finals is a gimme , due to seeding and the fact that in only a handful of countries is rugby a major sport.
I think the fact that it's an All-Ireland team is a major plus , and though not perfect , it's All-Ireland ethos is an example and not just for sport.
Despite the hype from mainly the Dublin media , the fact remains that rugby in Ireland remains a minor sport and in reality it has advanced little beyond a small number of schools ( many elitist).

There's wall to wall complaint from the same Dublin media , about how unwatchable Gaelic football has become , but when is somebody going to call out Rugby.

This is only my opinion , but tbf shared by many people I know.
It's actually a dreadful sport to watch ( maybe just for those that never played it). And that's on TV , knowledgeable rugby friends of mine will admit it's even harder to enjoy the game in person , without camera angles , replays  and commentary/analysis.
Many friends who go to Ravenhill or Aviva , admit they're there for the beers and often don't even watch the match.

I'm going to throw it out there for comment, but that was absolutely dreadful to watch yesterday . Handling errors, kicking errors , baffling penalty concessions, risky collisions , stop-start.
We kid ourselves , as Ireland is competitive on a world stage and we'll cheer anyone wearing a green jersey , but where is the "Wow factor ". By comparison I just flicked on the TV last Saturday and watched the Dublin Hurling final which was a brilliant game , totally compelling . Riain O'Neill taking the All-Ireland by the scruff of the neck . Rhys McCleneghan winning gold . Champions league etc etc .

By comparison , the sky commentators were homing in on the fact that Finlay Bealham's hip moved slightly to concede a penalty in a scrum. Less exciting than tug of war . Raving about kicks that just happen to bounce the right way. Crucial penalties conceded cheaply. Empty the bench to rest professional  athletes  that aren't expected to complete a full game .

We've wall to wall barracking of Gaelic football by the Dublin media , when will we hear them negative about rugby as a spectacle? Maybe they went to "rugby schools" and understand it better than the rest of us, but for me , the hype around rugby is not matched by the game as a spectacle .