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Without wanting to come across as smart but maybe that's why your phone was ringing the whole time. Getting a decent coach in for nothing.

Is that not one half of the problem - people would think you man for doing it for nothing (or no use). Not really in keeping with a volunteering tradition which is the bedrock of the GAA.  The other half of the problem is there is now a market for these services that didn't previously exist. 

I am fascinated by the ongoing club versus county debate that has developed into the greatest faultline in the GAA.  We have had the emergence of the CPA to highlight (rightly) how club football is disadvantaged by the county scene, with championship fixtures in successful counties condensed into a short window either in the early autumn and possibly the spring time.  We have pundits regularly ridiculing the "crazy" training regimes of inter-county teams and the seeming relentless drive towards professionalism and elitism.  The comparison is often made with the club, the lifeblood of the GAA, which is seen as a paragon of virtue. 

I would agree with a lot of what is said on this topic, but is it not time we took a more critical look at what is going on at club level?  How many clubs can you name in your own area that don't engage an outside manager / coach or both? Very few I imagine and I'd wager a good number are being paid. 

There is a cost to all of this beyond the invoice at the end of the month!  A paid coach needs to demonstrate success, so will demand more from the players.  Yes, a more structured training environment is certainly desirable; but many of these paid 'coaches' are complete charlatans.  How many are in it for the right reasons and prioritise the welfare of the player instead of their own bank balance (more training sessions means a bigger weekly fee) or reputation? Does paying a coach guarantee success? No, of course not - only one team can win any competition in a given year. This is a zero sum game and a rat race.

Moreover, it is worth looking at the cost of running club teams generally.  How much money is being spent by clubs on outside gyms and winter training facilities.  Consider the cost of physios to GAA clubs.  Do clubs need a physio at every game, when most physio work is either involved in rehab or prevention. 

And then you ask the question, where does this money come from?  It comes out of the community, through fundraising, selling tickets and running events.  It certainly isn't funded and cannot be justified by gate receipts at games for the vast majority of teams.  What's the opportunity cost of this expenditure?  Could it be spent better at underage level? Could it be spent better on facilities?  Is it all needed and could we do with less?

The bottom line is that the GAA needs to look very very carefully at this and stop ignoring it.  The GAA is probably one of, it not the most successful fundraising organisations in Ireland.  There is now a not inconsiderable cottage industry that exists based on the "GAA club market" which helps clubs spend this money. The greatest cost to all of this is the very slow and creeping loss of the volunteer ethos in clubs. During the Celtic Tiger era, there was a view that the answer was to throw money at the club, rather than look for a volunteer solution.  That has been with us ever since.  Instead of this notion of "Club Good County Bad", maybe its time the focus shifted back to looking at this issue which is prevalent throughout the GAA.

Discuss! 

[I hate the sight of Cross because I know whats coming]

I have seen them six times since I came home a year and a half ago, I have listened to their fans and I have seen the classless way they behave against both the Harps and especially the Ogs, they behave like animals at times, I no longer pull for cross, I want the f**kers to lose every time they take the field and I am delighted maghery took them to the woodshed again.
Even their coaches at the U12-U14 act like idiots, I watched them playing the Harps and we beat them by over 20 points the first underage game I went to when I got back, the coaches were coming on to the field and acting the maggot even when they were completely outclassed! f**k crossmaglen
Hopefully this years county final will be a clean one, one thing is for sure, we are all better off without Crossmaglen Rangers being part of the spectacle.

In the canteen at work today there were people from four clubs, not one had a good thing to say about Cross, I know they are perennial winners and that sickens people but the outstanding theme of the conversation was greatness tinged with classlessness, that's about right in my view, I hate the sight of Cross because I know whats coming if they are getting it tight!

Stew, you are tarring an entire club with one brush.  And do you ever read over the stuff that you post?  There is a theme in your posts where the language seems to get to boiling point quickly and stays there.  Can you not tone down the language?  Does it have to be in the ballpark of I hate and F$8k them. Can you not just say, for example - 'I was very annoyed'.

There is an element as clubs where we all have to say "there but for the grace of God go I".  Because we all have our share of nutjobs playing, managing and supporting clubs. 

You know what lads I'm sick of this. There was stuff that happened the other night that shouldn't but some of you lads would want to have a look on the mirror. There are things that I know that will come out in the light of day that will maybe have a few of you questioning who did what.

Stew as the Crossmaglen u12 coach I take great offence by your comments. I have been at many underage games at many levels this year and have seen none of what you describe from any of our coaches. What I have seen is one coach from an u12 team call one of my players nothing but a wee shit and the same man called one of his own players a useless b**tard. I have been commended by all and sundry at how well mannered and well behaved our lads are. Like in all groups there are one or two that are more difficult to handle than others. It sickens me when hurlers on the ditch like yourself pass judgement and have absolutely no idea what goes on.

This is my last word on this, we did wrong the other night as did some of the Maghery players. As did the maghery fans who tried to pull one of our players over the fence when he was trying to pull men off a Cross player. Like I said a lot more will come out in the wash. I have been following football for many years and my first experience of fans coming into the field to get involved in a fight was when I played an u16 game in the Abbey Park and a man came onto the field and struck me. Those without sin.

And as for you Tony you are a bottom feeding guttersnipe who piggy backs on other people's success and loves other people's failures. You sit there and criticise but apart from filling in a Spot the Ball competition every so often you wouldn't even know what it is like to go to a Tir Na nOg underage game to support your own club. You are scum and that is bout the height of it,  symptomatic of all of your ilk who defend the indefensible and then pass judgement on everyone else.  You're a perfect voice box for the Catholic Church that you adore. Scum

Walk out BCB!!

Think a few people on here could do with winding their necks in.  Every club has supporters that are idiots.  Every club has coaches and mentors that are idiots and every club has players that are idiots.  It doesn't necessarily follow, but the bigger the club, the greater the likelihood that there will be a few more idiots.  It's in no way acceptable to tar an entire club and community with one brush based on the actions of a few. 

I know it was. It was gut wrenching. But we were beat by a far better team. It happens in football. I don't believe any other manager would have gotten us any closer to Dublin. They are a level above everyone at the minute in my opinion. I would be surprised to see them not run out 5 point victors against Mayo (Sorry Mayo lads, and I sincerely hope I'm wrong).
I think we are all playing for second place at the minute as I think Dublin will continue to get stronger.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Dubs arent exactly as "unbeatable" as everyone is making out ?

We were "absolute sh1te" on the day, we stood off them, never laid a hand on them .. We would have made anyone look good...
Maybe Im wrong but I honestly dont think they're all they're being cracked up to be .. very good yes but still overrated IMHO.

Mayo for SAM 

You're not the only one who thinks that!!!  Much as I hate to say it, Tyrone didn't turn up for the game.  No intensity and as you say stood off them.  For a number of the Dublin scores, I felt Tyrone players were within blocking distance, but they didn't seem to have the stomach for it.  Play the same game a week later and it would have been a tighter result.  Dublin haven't been tested all year and great and all as they are, I don't know if they'll be ready for the absolute hunger and physicality that Mayo will bring to the table in the final. Genuinely think Mayo are in with a great shout and they definitely won't fear the Dubs. 

Surprised though that Harte has been given 3 years.  If Tyrone regress next year, there'll be some row in the bushes. 

3 years - that's a lot of Hail Marys

Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

It doesn't matter if he asked them or not.  It tells reinforces the outsider view that GAA is for catholics and we wouldn't be welcome there.    What impression does it give to people that we aspire to welcome into the GAA?  Instead of having an argument about religion = bad or religion = good, surely  it is possible to understand that you don't have to be anti-religion (I'm not, but not a fan of evangelising) to understand how this is perceived outside the association and outside the team.  And it is also fair to ask whether the players would be able to say no if the man that picks the team asks them to say the rosary together. 

Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.

But religion is different particularly in the north. 

I would disassociate myself from the religion-bashing on here.  What religious beliefs I have are my own and I feel no need to express them here.  It is perfectly possible to be religious, but to understand that many people don't share your beliefs or would be annoyed if I took to insisting that we pray together.  Ask yourself how you would feel if you heard that the Ulster rugby coach insisted on holding hands and singing psalms together before games?   

[As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.]

What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic!

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

You just made the point for me; someone in a position of power is thrusting his religion onto subordinates. 

I'll say it again: the GAA is not an exclusively catholic organisation and we aspire to attract participants from all parts of society.  The fact that we are mostly catholic is an even greater reason not to bring religion into the dressing room.  What message does it give to non-members who we claim to welcome. 

On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.

Let's say Mickey suggested it and you weren't comfortable? Do you say something? Do you say nothing?

Let's say there was someone that wasn't comfortable with it and said so. What options does he give them? OK then, we won't bother saying the Rosary?  Do you want to stand outside during the Rosary?  Just stand there and say nothing?
What if someone new is invited onto the panel. Do I have to say the Rosary if I play for Tyrone? I'm not comfortable with that, Can I say something?

Then you think about what kind of message this sends out to non-catholics within the GAA and outside it. 

I'm sure if you wanted a method of focusing the mind pre-match you could find all kinds of techniques without drawing them from religion. 

Finally, to address your little patronising comment at the end; I'm not worked up about it.  I just find it wrong and disagree with it.

Ah sure it's some mess, I don't possibly know how they functioned as a panel. Or maybe it isn't all that big a deal and it was discussed before hand and most of the players bought into it and an arrangement was made for those that weren't comfortable with it.

I'm sure they functioned fine, because most people in that situation will just go along with it. I'd be surprised if anyone said that they were uncomfortable, but the principal remains; the GAA is not an exclusively catholic organisation and we aspire to attract participants from all parts of society.  The fact that we are mostly catholic is an even greater reason not to bring religion into the dressing room.  What message does it give to outsiders?  If you want religion, go to the chapel / church and don't push it on anyone else; because that is effectively what he is doing, from a position of power.   

[If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.]

This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August.  I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations.  Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.

Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone.  They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop.  If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.

I highly doubt that. Mickey Harte is firmly entrenched in a negative tactical mindset, it's all about safety first. Even in his interview after the match he was sort of regretting having to try and attack more after they fell behind at half time as it meant that Dublin could exploit the extra space more. He is far too concerned with the opposition instead of trusting his own players ability a bit more.

No matter about the tactical mindset, which is a huge constraint in itself, I think the biggest problem Tyrone had on Sunday was that they didn't show any intensity.  All year they have kept their discipline and not fouled, but against Dublin I think that almost translated into standing off their men.  Some of Dublin's scores came from situations where the player in possession was being closely shadowed by a couple of Tyrone players, yet they were able to get away the shot.  Would love to see the stats, because it seemed like only Dublin was turning over the ball where as Tyrone were doing in attack exactly what they hoped Dublin would do; carry the ball into possession and lose it. But Tyrone were very loose in general and the turnover for the first Dublin goal was a good example.  Loose pass, receiving player waited and Dublin stole possession. Dublin had all the urgency and intensity.  Once they got that goal, Tyrone were in big trouble as that defensive system only caters for easy or tight winable games. It doesn't offer any solutions for games that you are losing. 

If that game was replayed and Tyrone raised their intensity levels to what they are capable of, it would be a different proposition.  I doubt if Tyrone would win, but there would wouldn't be 15 points in it and it would be competitive going into the last 15 minutes. 

This is now Tyrone's longest gap between All Ireland Final Appearances since 1986. However, it is hard to see who will break their dominance in Ulster so they'll still be there or thereabouts in August.  I'd be surprised if Monaghan continue to exceed expectations.  Hard to know what Down and Cavan are capable of and Armagh, Derry and Fermanagh won't do much from Division 3. That leaves Donegal who with the right manager probably have it within themselves to compete with Tyrone.

Funny thing is I think the one team that might benefit from the Super-8s is Tyrone.  They are young, athletic and learning. Extra games against quality opposition will help them develop.  If they had got that tanking from Dublin in the Super 8s and met them again in the final, it would have been a different proposition.

Whats the precedent of a team losing 4 finals in 6 years? 😂

Could be worse if you were stuck on 1 solitary AI win like Armagh. Shameful that a county that calls itself a footballing won could sit in the roll of honour basement!   

Could be worse. Your county could have just got drubbed in an AI SF after boasting how they were the only team who could take down the dubs

Nah mate. Your ONE AI win coupled with being the toilet-brush of Ulster football is utterly humiliating. Not a single win in Ulster in 3 years of trying for McGeeney.  Getting fucked over by every team in Ulster as well as by Tyrone and Down in one season caps it all.  #ThePatheticOrchard

Poor little pet! Obviously a wee bit sore after the drubbing yesterday. 

Tyrone in no different to everyone else shocker.
The thing about long serving managers in any sport is they run out of ideas or players. Look at Man U.
Or Declan Kidney. Or Wenger.
Mickey owes Tyrone nothing.  I think in a lot of ways for a lot of people he sort of is Tyrone. And that is some achievement.

Your dead right, but when they eventually go after an extended period of success, it leaves a bit of a mess - particularly if they don't go quietly. 

The criticism of Micko was that he hadn't developed the team in later years, leaving a huge rebuilding job.  Sean Boylan was routinely challenged by Eamon Barry who eventually got the job.  That caused a right bit of upset round that time and Meath may have had just one manager (Colm Coyle) that supporters have been happy with since. 

If Harte does go now, then he is actually leaving them in excellent shape for a transition.  If he hangs on another few years and they go backwards these young players will all be a couple of years older, with a few more retirees and nothing to show for it. It could eventually force the hand of the co. board which won't be pleasant and would lead to serious bad-feeling.

On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.

Let's say Mickey suggested it and you weren't comfortable? Do you say something? Do you say nothing?

Let's say there was someone that wasn't comfortable with it and said so. What options does he give them? OK then, we won't bother saying the Rosary?  Do you want to stand outside during the Rosary?  Just stand there and say nothing?
What if someone new is invited onto the panel. Do I have to say the Rosary if I play for Tyrone? I'm not comfortable with that, Can I say something?

Then you think about what kind of message this sends out to non-catholics within the GAA and outside it. 

I'm sure if you wanted a method of focusing the mind pre-match you could find all kinds of techniques without drawing them from religion. 

Finally, to address your little patronising comment at the end; I'm not worked up about it.  I just find it wrong and disagree with it.