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This is stupid.

You're not anti-GAA if you're against the stadium.

If anything, you're pro-GAA, because the current plans are clearly not the best way to spend a once in a century windfall of £70million.

The site is simply too small and constrained.

The big clue is the Andytown Rd stand with no roof.

If the site were bigger........ there would be greater distance from residents and we'd be able to get a taller building with all four stands having roofs.

If the site were bigger........  the budget would be enough to deliver a proper fully covered stadium. We wouldn't have to sink so many millions into underground concrete bunkers for car parking and ancillary facilities that would otherwise be built at ground level.

If the site were bigger........  the crowds could exit safely from the stadium and we wouldn't force the people of West Belfast to be held hostage on match days by closing one of Belfast's arterial routes, the Andytown Road. Or close down the new Belfast Rapid Transport system that is due to go down the Andytown Road.

If the site were bigger........  we would get the proper 40k, fully covered, fully seated stadium that this project was meant to provide. Not the 38k, 3/4 covered mutant that they're trying to peddle now.

If the site were bigger........  the long term running costs of the stadium would be cheaper, as we'd be able to hold far more non-sporting events such as concerts to cover future running costs.

If the site were bigger........  the stadium could be built using the near universal bowl stadium design that allows more bars, restaurants, conference facilities, etc to be built. Again decreasing long term running costs. The architects themselves have admitted that they couldn't do the optimal bowl design, or provide a roof at the Andytown Rd side because the site is too constrained.

If the site were bigger........  the deepest stand wouldn't be behind the Andytown goals, but would be in the main stands along each side, allowing more people to get optimal views, not substandard ones behind the goals.


But the site isn't bigger.....
It's time to take the funding elsewhere and build it on a site that is big enough.

Fecking hell. Three years later and not a fecking thing of any worth has changed since. I'll be back again to post the blindingly obvious again next year.

Thanks for the very thorough and articulated response Snatter. Regarding the minimum daylight impact standards surely the residents on the other three sides are closer than the apartment block along the Anderstown road?

A deep stand behind the goals can improve atmosphere (Borussia Dortmunds ground an example) but to not cover the ground entirely is madness.

I agree on Musgrave Park but surely that opens a can of worms as it's in South Belfast or is it still technically West?

The A'town Stand roof would have to be much higher than the others becasue it is (embarassingly) the deepest stand.
It is the deepest stand becaue that's the only way that the seated capacity can be pushed up to 37k (as opposed to the 40k that was tendered for).

Below is a link that illustrates just how high the A'town Rd stand roof would had to have been.

See post 1 at http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1563744, published at a Community Consultation Event held in November 2012.

--

In Belfast's sectarian micro-geography, Musgrave Park would be technically South rather than West, but at only 250 metres away, does it matter?
The greater commercial opportunites would create far more job opportunities for the people of West Belfast.
Transport links (esp to rail) are better as well.

There you go, the roof that can never be. Over what is laughably the deepest stand in te stadium.

If anybody can't work out what the optimal viewing circle is all about, just look at Thomond Park photo earlier. In the normal world, stadium designers put the deepest sstands along the sides, and even have covex stands, to maximise the numebr of spectators with the best possible views.

One more bit of sense before I leave my desk.

There's nothing more miserable than sitting in the rain.
Especially if you've paid a decent amount to sit in a joke of a brand new £75 Million Irish stadium that is only 3/4 roofed.

If, God forbid, we do end up with thousands having to be accommodated in the uncovered A'town Rd stand, surely it would be better for the poor drenched souls to be allowed to *stand* rather than sit.

Additionally, I think the GAA & architects should look at these RAIL SEATS that

1. allow safe standing
2. allow more fans to be accommodated in the same space.

See this great site for technical details:

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3

For every 40 seated fans, you can get 72 safely standing fans instead!!!!!!!!!

If both the stands behind the goals had these RAIL SEATS, then it might be possible that the 37k capacity could be met by having a shallower A'town rd stand, that could just allow some form of ROOF to be built over it.

This has got to be worth examining.
If anybody has contacts / influence over the GAA project team or architects, then please forward this to them.

The GAA shouldn't get hung up about having an all seated capacity, when a partially standing capacity could deliver a roof over fans' heads instead.

I do agree about safe standing though - another old psot

I think an upgrade of a stadium in Armagh/Tyrone is best, but can't see a brand new stadium being built. When was the last time a GAA stadium was built from scratch? I don't remember any.

Has no one been paying attention to the this the whole way through.

Ziggy said it earlier, this money has been ring fenced for Casement. It cannot and will not be directed to another project anywhere else.

Its Casement of bust I'm afraid.

Incorrect.

The original restrictions still stand, namely that all three sports are to spend the money on one stadium development each.

There have never been any restrictions on whether the stadiums should be refurbishments, greenfield sites, or ties to any given location.

The decision to spend the money on Casement was the GAA's, and the GAA's alone. After receiving (flawed) advice from an unnamed consultancy in 2010 that the site could accommodate a 40k stadium.

Bump

[i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.]

I'll tell u what i know... there seems to be a few guys on here that are an expert on Stadium Design and know the RED GUIDE inside and out. I have spoke with a few consultants regarding Casement and the capacity and room for capacity was not a big issue, there was/is room to build a 45K seater stadium but local residents complained about the size of the stands over shadowing their homes so GAA and Designers decided to reduce the size of the stands so it wouldn't have as big an impact as previous design. The biggest factor was the egress time, this is the total time in which all spectators can, in normal conditions, leave an area of viewing accommodation and enter into a free flowing exit system. It does not include the time taken to negotiate the entire exit route. This must happen within 8 minutes of the announcement but Casement Park cannot accommodate therefore the free flowing exit system is inadequate.

Now the strange thing is when the old ground was full to capacity (think it was 32,600) it probably didn't comply with the RED GUIDE safety measures either but there was never a word about it, the best thing going for Casement was that it was/is GAA and there is no segregation with their fans. If it was too accommodate soccer with segregation then it potentially could have been a disaster if trouble was to flare up, gladly we never experienced anything.

Regarding the funding and if it's available to another venue I'm not 100% sure on who said what but i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.

Who peddled the idea that it was Casement or nowt? Was it the Ulster Council?

AFAIK the money was ring fenced for a one off stadium development, where that was was to be a decision for the Ulster Council..

That side of things Johnney i'm not sure on TBH.

Fecking hell. Why does this myth, this utter untruth still keep floating around.
Read slowly:

THE FUNDING CAME WITH A CONDITION THAT IT WAS TO ONLY BE USED TO BUILD ONE STADIUM.

THERE WERE NO CONDITIONS ABOUT WHERE THAT STADIUM HAD TO BE.

ANYONE THAT SAYS DIFFERENTLY IS TALKING OUT OF THEIR SPHINCTER.

Well surely if the new plans feature a downsized capacity the stadium can be built? Why the need to expand? Mid 30k is sufficient - surely if need be they can convert seating areas to standing to increase capacity? And anything above that - Croke Park can be used. Of course the site is restrained but too much has been pumped into it for there to be a u turn - it'd be a scandal and no politician would back it

No, they can't just slap a roof on the uncovered stand - it's too close to surrounding housing, specifically the apartments blocks on the Andersonstown Road. They had to drop that proposal as part of the planning permission application.

It's not a question of expanding. The original tender was for a 40k stadium. The only reason capacity keeps getting downwardly revised is that the site is to small. The capacity was dropped to appease residents.

I note you haven't addressed any other points.

As for it would be a scandal. Are you serious? It's a scandal already, and one that costs millions each year they persist with the half baked notion of spending once in a century funding on a third rate stadium. On a fifth rate site.

The GAA should never have run with Casement. If they'd picked any other site, big enough for a fully covered stadium, properly designed to maximise views for most spectators, and with enough surrounding space for safe dispersal, it would have been finished by now. Think about that this summer with rain pissing down, while rugby and soccer are sitting pretty.

If the site's big enough, the  stadium is future proof and can be built to the required capacity. The original tender docs for this project specified a 40k, fully covered, fully seated stadium.

Casement can never deliver that. And what would be built at Casement would realistically never be expandable.

I'd prefer something like Thomond Park, where the main stands (down the sidelines!!) are built big, and if there's not enough money to do the whole thing properly, allow enough room to build behind goal stands later.

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.punchconsulting.com/assets/images/galleries/thomond_park/(3).jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.punchconsulting.com/our-projects/leisure-hotels/thomond-park-rugby-stadium-limerick/&h=500&w=1395&tbnid=Toe0fAqiUm-jNM:&docid=1i7hu_nvym4FFM&ei=x5biVuDmGcv8abT5m5AM&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwig5tHJr7jLAhVLfhoKHbT8BsIQMwgeKAEwAQ

And do what with Casement exactly?

Put a prunty pitch on it, and a small stand on side of it, eg 4k capacity, to allow it to host club and college games. It's blindingly obvious the site is too constrained to be the strategic stadium we need - that's where all these problems stem from.

That's why the project's been delayed.

That's why the capacity's been reduced.

That's why the main arterial route, a bus rapid transport route,  through South West Belfast would have to be shut on matchdays - there's no room to allow crowds to disperse safely otherwise.

That's why one of the stands would have no roof. In Belfast - rains a lot ffs.

That's why, to meet capacity, the deepest stand would have to be built BEHIND the goals, not down the sides. Complete madness. It guarantees rubbish viewing angles. Google "optimal viewing circle" "stadium design". I'd say Casement would be the only stadium built in the last half a century anywhere in the world where the deepest stand isn't along the sidelines. That's where the best views are, that's where people should sit.

The archictect themselves admitted the site is constrained. Pack up the project and move it somewhere where theres enough room to build it.  The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second best time is today.

Come on Skeog. Keep up.

The grant is ring fenced for a GAA facility in West Belfast. That's the only option. There is no plan B. No alternative. No other venue. Sorry if that spoils a good story!

Utter tosh.

The money is ringfenced for the construction of one single stadium. There are not, nor ever have been, any restrictions on the stadium location.

The choice of Casement was the GAA's, and the GAA's alone.

That choice was made on the basis of a flawed 2010 consultancy report, paid for and commissioned by the GAA, that wrongly claimed that the Casement Park site was big enough to host a modern 40k capacity, fully seated stadium.

The consultant's report was simply wrong, and the GAA were wrong to accept it. The site is too constrained and was never feasible without the purchase of many surrounding houses. Even then, it would be sub-optimal, more constrained than a larger Greenfield site.

The GAA, even at this stage should stop digging, and extricate themselves from the mess we're in. The site is too small. A larger site elsewhere needs to be found.

Even if the funding doesn't stretch to building the original 40k, fully seated stadium, an alternative larger site would allow the eventual delivery of a 40k, fully covered stadium as funds allow in future decades. The main stands could be built for example, leaving behind goals for future development. Casement, because it is too constrained, can never be the 40k fully seated stadium that this project was meant to deliver.

We should walk away from Casement, even now, after the effort and money spent, and that continues to get spent. The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The second best time is today.

Belfast City Council should step up and offer an alternative site capable of holding the originally tendered 40K capacity.

A site big enough to hold a 40k stadium.
A site big enough to allow a roof on ALL four sides of the stadium.

I loved the reference in the report to the H&S importance of ensuring that fans continue sitting in the uncovered Andytown Road stand during any outbreaks of heavy rain. How fecking miserable will that be?

Time for the GAA top brass to stop digging a hole and get a big enough site.

[I agree that there needs to be a capacity of at least 30,000, not only to meet the conditions and criteria of the business case but to attract other events that were laid out in the business case and as part of the consultation.]

A floor capacity of 30k has been set for any viable development of Casement

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ni/?id=2015-06-01.4.53

Carál Ní Chuilín 1st June 2015:

"I anticipate the Ulster Council bringing forward a planning application in the autumn. They will use the summer to consult. They will consult widely and ensure that the comments that were made by Justice Horner in December of last year are fed into that consultation.

I agree that there needs to be a capacity of at least 30,000, not only to meet the conditions and criteria of the business case but to attract other events that were laid out in the business case and as part of the consultation.

It would be an absolute tragedy if people decided to set their face against something, but they need to have an opportunity to talk about the difficulties that they have around planning. I hope that the 12-week consultation process will be an opportunity for people to do that."

What part of "the money is for Casement Park only" do you not understand. It's Casement or nothing....No Lurgan, Portadown, Dungannon, Armagh or fecking Musgrave.

Complete c**k. The money is ringfenced for the construction of one stadium only.
There are no stipulations as to location. It's for the GAA, and the GAA alone, to decide where it wants to put it.

What part of that do YOU not understand.

I didn't understand any of it...you're right and i'm wrong. Just build the thing in Musgrave then

Casement was chosen because the GAA Ulster Council were advised by (an unknown & unpublished) consultancy report in 2010 that said Casement could accommodate a 40k fully covered stadium.

Clearly it can't and never could - I do wish the original report was published, so all GAA members can see the basis for choosing a site that, whilst GAA-owned, was always too small and constrained.

Once we have a site that's big enough, we can

• build the fecker as high as we like to proudly advertise our presence.
• have a roof on all four sides.
• offer better views to more people by have the deepest stands down the sides of the pitches, not behind one of the goals.
• run as many concerts as we like (critical for long term running costs).
• avoid having to close one SW Belfast's arterial routes just to disperse exiting crowds.
• avoid years of legal challenges which we will almost certainly lose.

This has been said a 100 times here and it always comes back to build the stadium somewhere else.

The GAA aren't building a standalone GAA stadium. They are building a long term, multi use stadium with conference and many other uses. Its a Croke park Lite that is open 7 days a week for many uses.

It will be a money generator that will rely on a population on its doorstep, a large corporate and business community that will put to use its non-sporting facilities on  a commercial basis. It will look to having a social business arm that will see a range of events - from concerts to private weddings.

This ain't going to happen anywhere but Belfast.

Totally agree. But.....without a site in Belfast, it's not going to happen.

That's where Belfast City Council have to put up - give us a site, or shut up - if we're forced to locate elsewhere. And by a site, I mean one big enough to host a 40k stadium, with associated ancillary functions. That excludes the current Casement site.

A 40k stadium is a massive economic lift for any city, especially one dependant on public sector funding. Belfast's economy is going to be savaged by incoming Tory austerity.

That's why BCC needs to copy its counterparts in Cork and Liverpool and facilitate the development of a brand new stadium. Lease us a site on good terms, issue the necessary compulsory purchase orders, whatever needs to be done.

If they don't, call Belfast's bluff, and move it to wherever is prepared to stump up an attractive ££ package to host us and the economic benefits we bring.

What part of "the money is for Casement Park only" do you not understand. It's Casement or nothing....No Lurgan, Portadown, Dungannon, Armagh or fecking Musgrave.

Complete c**k. The money is ringfenced for the construction of one stadium only.
There are no stipulations as to location. It's for the GAA, and the GAA alone, to decide where it wants to put it.

What part of that do YOU not understand.

anything to keep it off the sacrosanct back page