Messages

Any chance we can have the 08 panel banned for this year ? Theres a Cork panel there, genuine GAA players, genuine GAA people in the 2009 panel.

He also claimed last night that "apparent advice" was given to the 2008 players not to attend the recent funeral of his mother, something he says "devastated his father and family".If such advice was given, it would be a serious escalation of the four-and-a half-month-old crisis.

Shows the mentality of the ringleaders of the 2008 panel. How anyone, anyone can support these undeserving greedy scum is beyond me.

Well thats it then.

I'm almost speechless to be honest. Never did I ever think I would see the day when GAA people would act like this.

The 2008 players are the definition of dishonest, disgraceful and undeserving.

Strike, whinge, cry, refuse to even talk and just keep pumping the pressure on so mob rule, fear and bandwagoning win the day.

GAA people in Cork should hang their heads in shame. I really am speechless.

Isn't there some way to kick them out of the organisation ? The only panel who should be allowed to play for Cork at this stage is the 09 panel.

I honestly hope that they pick a manager with a pair of balls who drops

[Edited by Mod 3. Sligeach, that is completely out of order. Cop on.

I find this to be the most amazing view on this issue, which appears to be that democracy isn't really that and is a very flawed system but so what, that is the reality of democracy.

The reality of all implementations of democracy in this country, in every country, in every organisation sporting or not in the world is flawed and works this way.

Don't even try and say you don't already know that. Nothing happens without a "I'll scratch your back" situation occurring in democracy.

You can find examples of this in every democratic organisation in the world, in the modern age and as far back as there was anything resembling democracy.

Politics today for one example practically runs on what you described. How do you think people get funds for election campaigns ?

And of course I have a huge problem with it, I have a huge problem with capitalism too but at the moment they are the best political and economical systems we have got.

We are an amateur organisation and for a paid official to use a slightly late document as leverage to get a vote a certain way is a disgrace and a gross misuse of power.

He owed Frank, simple as. The same shite happens everyday everywhere. Hell, just last week I called in a favour from a lad I used to work with.

Now maybe that is the way of life but it is a disgraceful abuse of power and renders all arguments that any vote taken by any CB is infact democratic and if it isn't truely democratic then none of us need take any notice of decisions made via that process.

You'd prefer what exactly ? A benevolent dictator or perhaps you'd like to give good old facism a go ?

Sligeach you obviously don't care what Frank does, as long as he is not imprisoning club members and raising whole villages he ain't all that bad, that's your view and your entitled to it but I want a better GAA than that and this strike might help achiebve it.

If Franks evil and dictatorial then we are living in a tyrannical dictatorship.

No problem with the payers using their volunteerism as leverage to get a couple of votes their own way then?

Well since you didn't clearly read what I said about Frank, I'll have to explain it again.

I DO have a problem with the way democracy works including Franks way in the CCB, but I'm not going to argue about it here because its not an issue of democracy in the Cork GAA, its an issue for democracy as a whole.

So yes I do have a problem with the players using leverage to get votes, but I also have a problem with Frank doing the same and I have a problem with democracy as a whole in this regard.

You don't see a problem with a paid GAA official blackmailing a club into supporting motions to the county board meeting?

i suppose that's where we differ

I see a huge problem with it but my political views are not on debate here and neither are the finer points of democracy.

I don't like it but it IS democracy, it IS the way it works and it IS the way it has always worked.

You can claim democracy is flawed and you'd be right but you can't claim such an incident is not democratic because it happens every day in every democratic situation in every democratic country in the world.

now that is one instance with one club and technically frank did nothing wrong. but i wonder how many arms he twisted that day to get his 3 motions forced through and how many favours he can maipulate any given week?

I'm sorry but I've read it twice and I can't see what I'm supposed to be reading as 'evil' or 'dictatorial' in that ?

What you have just stated is exactly what I would have expected from anyone in such a position.

I mean, you do know that the lads in Leinster house, the house of commons, the American senate etc all do this ? Its not the exception, its the norm for democracy.

[1973-present]

I'll give you a single issue.

Secretary of the Cork County Board of the GAA
1973-present

That's a Dictatorship.

Nope it ain't.

A dictatorship means power is with him and only him. Its not and never was.

Sligeach, first off, you tackled only some of the points so I presume you accept the others reflect poorly on FM but I readily accept that some of them,

You may not presume that. I seen no need to quote them because my question remains for them all, what makes any of them make Frank look bad ?

taken in isolation, are not 'bad' in any sense of the word. The list, however does show a record of conservatism and lack of imagination, which goes along way towards explaining the mindset of the CCB.

Your saying Frank is evil because the CCB have shown themselves to be conservative ? 

....it appears that you feel the CB can over rule the grassroots opinion if they see fit, which dowling and OM agree with. Nail on the head, really?

The CB can vote whatever way they want to vote on issues because thats what they were put there for. Thats called democracy, its also the system of government we have in this country.

Presently this countries government are making some very unpopular decisions but the people put them there to do that.

And when you add in the other issues it stacks up as a fairly incompetent reign.

You haven't stated a single issue which shows Frank as 'evil' or as 'dictatorial'. All you have shown is a CB put there voting on certain issues one way or another.

Taken from rebelgaa..posted originally by Lebump

This is the same County Board who voted against the formation of All-Ireland Club Championships back in the 70's.

... so ? Its proven to be great, but at the time many people had genuine concerns, one of which was the downfall of the provincial championships.

This is a reason to think FM is evil incarnate why ?

This is the same County board who voted against live television coverage back in the late 80's ( i stand corrected on the timimg, could have been early 90's).

Again, plenty of people had legitimate concerns about this. Whats the point ?

This is the same county board who voted against Rule 42 despite delegates/clubs voting overwhelmingly in favor of it.

The clubs and delegates voted in favour but the CCB voted against ? really ?

And I still am wondering what your point is, they have every right to vote the way they think is best. Many people were worried about getting rid of rule 42.

This is the same county board who appointed Teddy Holland, with a huge majority from the delegates, only to fire him weeks later with an even bigger majority.

..... because of the actions of the players you support ?

This is the same county board who have been involved in 3 player strikes in a decade.

uh huh ...

etc etc

Theres nothing in there that shows Frank been evil or been a dictator.

They don't want to veto the manager fully. It's just this manager.

So finally after 5-6 days we can agree that it is a veto. The players wants a veto on Ger and Donal Og has lied to the national media regarding this. Thank you.

I am worried that they will want powers of veto in the future as well, aren't you ?

If the Cb really were genuine and put other names up with Gerald as well, debated them and then at the end felt that Gerald was the best option then the players would have either bitten their tounge for 2 (more then likely one year) and got on with it. But it was the way it was done.
FM on purpose reappointed Gerald the way he did to get rid of the senior players.
This is to an extent the result he wanted, the "ring leaders" gone.

But reillers, by the letter of the law he did nothing wrong. Just by the spirit of it.

And I agree with you that Ger was probably not the right choice and the players had every right to gather support to vote him out.

You've assumed I disagree with everything you support simply because I disagree with some of it.

Technically you are right, it is a veto, but if (and it's an extreme comparison I know) but if you kill someone in war are you a murderer? (The only example I could think of.)
You know what I mean.
Or Robin Hood. Technically he was a theif right, but..
I'm really, really trying to break it down here.

Murder as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide.
Homicide (Latin homicidium, homo human being + caedere to cut, kill) refers to the act of killing another human being.[1] It can also describe a person who has committed such an act, though this use is rare in modern English. Homicide is not always an illegal act

If you kill another soldier in a war then its a lawful killing, not a murder. Soldiers can get tried for murder even in time of War, e.g > killing a civilian.
Robin Hood was a thief. Been a thief just describes his actions, its makes no account of the circumstances and its neither good nor bad. Been a thief is simply the act of stealing but that means f-all except he stole. Its nothing to do with why or how or who he stole from. Been a thief does not make him bad or good or anything, it just means he stole which is a fact.

It wasn't about wanting to change the system and have a veto it was a reaction to an action from the CB.
It's a veto because of circumstance.

And yet again, I am not arguing the rightness or the wrongness of it. I am arguing what it is and it IS a veto. The circumstances, the who, the why, the how make no difference to what the word means.
If I eat my dinner, it makes no difference where I ate, what I ate, Who I ate it with, Why I ate it or how much it was. It doesn't matter if it was bad or good, it doesn't matter if I got food poisoning or etc etc. The circumstances make no difference whatsoever to the meaning of the word 'eat'.

Donal Og doesn't want to use the word because if he calls it a veto then people may believe he will want powers of veto in the future.

The rights and wrongs make the difference. You've never done something that was technically wrong for the right reasons, ever hear of ends justifying the means?

And this is my point! A veto is not right or wrong, its not good or bad. Whether its technically right or wrong or illegal or legal or crazy or sane or stupid or smart or ... etc makes no difference to what its called.

You have your views, that's fine. But you can't keep painting everything in such a black and white way, now maybe you believe that everything is that simple or you're just having a pop at Donal Og every chance you can.

Because it is black and white. Its a f-ing word with a very simple meaning.

And yes, I admit freely I can't stand Donal Og (And Dessie) and hurling and the GAA will be a lot better off when he goes.

The proper channels. Like what, talk to the CB, ask them nicely not to do it.
Ask the clubs to provoke a sleeping dog? Ask them to go against the CB, suffer the consequences right there and then. It wouldn't have worked.
The players did the only thing in their arsenal that has got the CB to listen in the past. They refused to play.
Nothing else works and now this time it didn't even get their attention.

You have your view, I have mine.

I have no problem with what the players want or are doing, my problem is with their methods.

Calling them lying dishonest cheats is out of line and unfair. Why are you calling them cheats?

They signed an agreement last year not to strike = dishonest.
They (Donal) has lied on the national media = lying.

First of all they are not striking they are refusing to play. Call it what you like that is technically what they are doing, what they have said they are doing.

Refusing to play until demands are met = striking.

You're confusing yourself. are you now saying noone made a response to your satisfaction? you didn't like the response?
what is it that noone explained to you?

No. I appreciate your response for its honesty but noone has made an argument for defending their view that it isn't a veto, you said it was so therefore we have no argument on this subject.

So you are not saying the players are wrong to take a stance - thats progress at least. you are saying that you disagree with their methods?

Yes. And I'd even go one step further and say I don't disagree with their methods at this moment in time, regarding the way they are gathering support from the clubs. I in fact agree that Ger had his time and someone else should have been given the reigns.

I don't agree that;

- Ger is a particularly bad manager, I believe hes not the best man for the job in Cork at this stage yes, but calling him a bad manager etc is just wrong and making the players and their supporters look bad.
- The players should be 'on strike' or 'not playing' whatever way you wish to phrase it. It they truely loved Cork hurling and truely wanted to make things better for Cork hurling people they would still be playing but fighting tooth and nail for the clubs support to oust Ger. I would have no problem in the world with that. In fact I would support them in it and I believe its healthy for the GAA to have such movements.

In my opinion, the way the players are acting are remoniscent of schoolboy antics. Standing by your principles is all well and good but stand by them, through thick and thin and don't make excuses for them.

I take you missed the "cloyne motion" which is now being resubmitted?
The players can win this and they will. Brennan and cooney are already drawing up draught procedures for county boards to ensure they do things properly and avoid constituant parts of a county membership having to take severe action to ensure proper procedure.

No I didn't. Its just 5 months too late and it came about the wrong way and if the players win this (which in itself I don't mind) and get some kind of player veto on future managerial appointments then it will be a dark day for the GAA as a whole.

The Mulvey agreement was thrown out the window by the county executive so all avenues were open.
who are lying dishonest cheats and why?

The CCB agreed to have two players representatives on the selection committee, the other members have a majority and elected Ger. Nothing in the Mulvey agreement was broken.

You can argue the spirit of the agreement was broken but thats intangible. It all depends on a persons opinion.

And yes I would agree the CB made the wrong choice and even agree they may have done it for simple revenge but Donal Og is just as guilty as they are.  

I must not have been clear in my last post... i support democratic processes but there is no democratic process in cork. well there hasn't been but there's about to be one.

Again, it all depends. To some people Zimbabwe is a democratic country when in fact its a dictatorship. North Korea has a parliment with elected politicians but its no more democratic then Nazi Germany was. \
Irelands a democracy on paper with a handful of gangsters in charge. etc

The CCB is democratic and the clubs if they had got off their asses could have changed things, which is what the players are doing right now so in actual fact Cork GAA is and was democratic, its just the voters weren't arsed practicing it.

You can't say they were democratic just because people were too lazy to vote for what they wanted.

i don't know why i have to keep repeating things for you, but one last time... i have no problem with the this cork team having a veto on this manager.

And what about a veto in the future on future managers ?

I disagree it's a veto because of the circumstances but even if it is a veto on Gerald, what is your point.

My point is that Donal Og lied. Thats all.

Of course the rights and wrongs make a difference,

Not to the meaning of the word, which is all I have been arguing.

Since you seem to base all your arguments on what the dictionary definition is

Confusing me with someone else. I am not arguing anything in relation to the word, I'm simply pointing out its meaning and Donal Og lying on national media.

The players wanted powers of veto against Gerald and probably want powers of veto at least in the future against any possible managerial candidates.

Others like myself have been posting on this for a while now and have argued the various points with a go degree of decency, respect and dare I say it, intelligence most of the way through.

And thats my issue with it. There are NO points in relation to this argument. Your arguing about the rights and wrongs of the players rejecting Gerald, I'm arguing about what the players have asked for, and what they have asked for is a veto.

Asking the county board to NOT put Gerald into the position is a veto. Whether its right or wrong makes no difference.

This has been an on going dispute for over 6 years so they didn't go for strike as a first option and it isn't blackmail, they said they couldn't play for a particular man and he was reappointed so they didn't, though i haven't checked out the definition of blackmail so you might disagree.

If thats the case and they can't play for the manager then they should just walk away.

If they were real GAA men they would have used the processes of the GAA to change the situation. If the CCB are that bad then use the clubs to oust them democratically.

Throwing the hurl against the wall and crying all over the national media for 5 months is not the way decent honest men act.

The clubs wouldn't have known enough about what was going on or cared enough if teh players were playing, so the only realistic way of bringing everything out was to refuse to play, this raised the stakes and concentrated minds.

So thats your excuse for the way the players have been acting ? Because the Cork clubs and Cork GAA people cared so little for Cork hurling that the players had to whinge about it for 5 months on every media outlet they could get their mouths near before even approaching the clubs to call meetings on the issue ?

Well i certainly said many many pages ago (you're allowed to read as well as post on these threads) that i had no problem calling it a veto on Gerald McCarthy's management.

Indeed you did and I remember that. But I didn't say no one made an adequate response, I said no one had explained this in relation to Donal Og's bare faced lie. Perhaps you should try that 'reading' thing too ?

I'm astonished that you feel it right to defend an elected (and paid) official's right to ignore good practice, the common good and all sense to make a destructive decision - just because he can.

And I'm surprised you feel its right to defend a bunch of players who didn't even bother trying to go about this through the proper channels. No attempt whatsoever was made to bring this to the clubs until AFTER the vote.

Your confusing my argument with your own. I am not arguing that the County Board are right, because I think it was a terrible choice to put Ger back, I am arguing that the players are wrong and they can not win this, not this way. Because if they do they are setting a precedent that will change the GAA forever and not for better.

Taking up a right to not play is not blackmail no matter how much you'd like it to be. when you are in a fight you have tools at your disposal. the players have one trump card and its their participation. you believe all collective action in disputes are blackmail?

After signing an agreement not to strike the players decided to strike, and you can call it whatever you like, its a strike. So both themselves under Donal Og's leadership anyways and the County Board have proven they are both a bunch of lying dishonest cheats.

I believe in the democratic process too. what i don't believe in is an autonomous county executive ignoring the good of the county to pursue personal vendettas.

You support the democratic process but have no problem with the players actions ? The fact they tried to force the CCB first, then tries democracy after that failed ? You are fine with that ?

Howabout the players gaining veto powers on management, your ok with that ?