Waterford have finally managed to get to the AIF again for the first time since 1963, in doing so they will have most neutrals hoping that they can go on and win it. They will definitely start as underdogs following on from Kilkennys most impressive win over Cork last weekend. This will suit Waterford as the favourites tag doesn't rest very comfortably on their shoulders like against Limerick in last years semifinal loss. In Davy Fitzgerald they seem to have an astute manager that can get the best out of them, but will their best be good enough to take Kilkenny ? It would be fantastic if they produce one of the fairytale wins that would crown the careers of such class hurlers like Ken McGrath, Tony Brown and Eoin Kelly.
Big Dan will have to up his game considerably, his movement today looked very cumbersome but he has 3 weeks to get himself sorted. There will be great craic along the county border now for this AIF. If the Déise do manage to lift the Liam McCarthy cup I'd say it will be celebrated like no other AI win going on the scenes from today's semi.
Waterford are there on merit - I thought their defence was very good today, albeit helped by some rather favourable reffing decisions - Big Dan has lost form completely - I wonder is he feeling guitly about what he did to Justin ?.
Defnsively Waterford can hold Kilkenny - can Waterford score enough to win the game ?
Waterford lifted a huge weight off their shoulders today. All the semi final losses must have weighed like a millstone round the neck for the players. Perhaps now they can relax going into the final. They will be underdogs of course which takes pressure off so perhaps they can go and play with some of the freedom of expression which they have played with over the last 6 or 7 years. The only fly in the ointment and it is a rather large one is that the cats are well used to being favourites for an AIF. A tantalising final in prospect with waterford trying to bridge a 40+ year gap and the cats trying to bridge a 90+ year gap since they did 3 in a row. Lots to play for and for us neutrals to enjoy, should be a cracker.
I have a sneaky feeling big Dan is due a big game and the final could be the time he'll do it.
I would actually say OM that I felt the referee, in my eyes anyway, favoured Tipp a little bit.
I could point to a few examples - Corbett not seeing red, Eoin Kelly(WF) not even touching the FB coming out and still the ref giving Tipp a foul, Eoin Kelly(Tipp) fielding the ball and then falling from what seemed like his own momentum and getting a foul, Eoin Murphy getting shouldered when going down on the ball and Tipp scoring the point.
They have nothing to lose in the final. Everyone expects them to take a beating. If everyone clicks on the day they can put it up to KK. Everyone will need to click though.
My initial thoughts on this are that Kilkenny will stand with Waterford for 20 minutes, let them blow themselves out, and then strike for 2 quick goals either side of half time and go on to win by about 8 or 9 points. Yesterdays game was great, but the difference in quality with the semi final last week was stark. Waterford, especially, and Tipp took an age to get the ball up in their hands, and there was some poor striking. Kilkenny and Cork lifted the ball first time, most of the time, and were far crisper.
Waterford are in a great position. They have good forwards, a (now) good half back line, and Brick Walsh starting to motor. They are big underdogs and have nothing to lose, so they'll have a right go.
For them to win, though, Kilkenny will have to be 'off', and Waterford will have to be seriously 'on'. I think Kilkenny are 8 points a better team at least, but you don't win games on paper.
Did Offay ever win an all Ireland where they started as favourites ?
I am really happy for all the good hurling people in Waterford - especially Deiseach and Deise girl. This all-ireland final has been a very long time coming. It seemed that true laochra iomanaiochta like Paul Flynn , Tony Browne and Ken McGrath would never get their day in the sun. There were so many heartbreaks - I was in Porky Corky in 2000 when Tipp beat them and even then it was hard to stomach.
In terms of emotional impact I think only Mayo breaking the duck would be equivalent.
If they stick with KK until the final 10 mins and are within 6 points then a Dooley style goal from a free and a couple of high balls into the full forward would be enough to make a 5 point win.
I am delighted for Eoin Kelly as well. As some fella from Mount Sion said about him, he's a fecker but he's their fecker.
Quote from: seafoid on August 18, 2008, 04:49:01 PM
Did Offay ever win an all Ireland where they started as favourites ?
I am really happy for all the good hurling people in Waterford - especially Deiseach and Deise girl. This all-ireland final has been a very long time coming. It seemed that true laochra iomanaiochta like Paul Flynn , Tony Browne and Ken McGrath would never get their day in the sun. There were so many heartbreaks - I was in Porky Corky in 2000 when Tipp beat them and even then it was hard to stomach.
In terms of emotional impact I think only Mayo breaking the duck would be equivalent.
If they stick with KK until the final 10 mins and are within 6 points then a Dooley style goal from a free and a couple of high balls into the full forward would be enough to make a 5 point win.
I am delighted for Eoin Kelly as well. As some fella from Mount Sion said about him, he's a fecker but he's their fecker.
I'm happy for them too, and I'd say Offaly may have been favourites in 1994, but I can't remember. But as you say, and as I alluded to, favourites don't always win. Waterford have the hurlers in key positions to take advantage of Kilkenny if they have an off day, and they are only human after all.
Finally, as for Kelly, he's not Mount Sion's fecker any more :D
Didn't Kelly move to Passage where the fiancee lives or something like that ?
Waterford have leaders all over the field and if they can get the rhythm going one more time they must be in with a chance. They must have 6 or 7 hurlers that would walk onto any team when they are on form. Winning that semi might lift a lot of pressure off them. It's only 70 minutes of hurling for a chance at eternity. The Kilkenny lads would hardly miss one all Ireland either.
KK look very good but this is the third year on the go and it's theirs to lose. It looks like the Liverpool-Wimbledon cup final of was it 1988 before the FA cup got all dull and predictable.
It's very refreshing to have Cork out of the Championship by the middle of august too. Give me Waterford's electricity over Donal Og Cusack's meticulousness any day.
Seeing the thread header -all Ireland final- port lairge... does a lot of good.
Quote from: seafoid on August 18, 2008, 05:24:32 PM
Didn't Kelly move to Passage where the fiancee lives or something like that ?
Waterford have leaders all over the field and if they can get the rhythm going one more time they must be in with a chance. They must have 6 or 7 hurlers that would walk onto any team when they are on form. Winning that semi might lift a lot of pressure off them. It's only 70 minutes of hurling for a chance at eternity. The Kilkenny lads would hardly miss one all Ireland either.
KK look very good but this is the third year on the go and it's theirs to lose. It looks like the Liverpool-Wimbledon cup final of was it 1988 before the FA cup got all dull and predictable.
It's very refreshing to have Cork out of the Championship by the middle of august too. Give me Waterford's electricity over Donal Og Cusack's meticulousness any day.
Seeing the thread header -all Ireland final- port lairge... does a lot of good.
Yeah, he's Passage now. I think they're a junior or intermediate club?
I agree with all of what you say, apart from maybe the 6 or 7 walking onto the Kilkenny team. I think Kilkenny have 3 or 4 substitutes that would walk onto the Waterford team. But anyway, I agree it would be great to see the win it. It would be some session in Waterford.
Quote from: seafoid on August 18, 2008, 05:24:32 PM
Didn't Kelly move to Passage where the fiancee lives or something like that ?
Waterford have leaders all over the field and if they can get the rhythm going one more time they must be in with a chance. They must have 6 or 7 hurlers that would walk onto any team when they are on form. Winning that semi might lift a lot of pressure off them. It's only 70 minutes of hurling for a chance at eternity. The Kilkenny lads would hardly miss one all Ireland either.
KK look very good but this is the third year on the go and it's theirs to lose. It looks like the Liverpool-Wimbledon cup final of was it 1988 before the FA cup got all dull and predictable.
It's very refreshing to have Cork out of the Championship by the middle of august too. Give me Waterford's electricity over Donal Og Cusack's meticulousness any day.
Seeing the thread header -all Ireland final- port lairge... does a lot of good.
I know what you mean in the David vs Goliath comparison but the Wimbledon comparison is a bit tough on Waterford. Waterford light up the championship with their style and passion, Wimbledon were journeymen footballers who played a dull, boring system to win 1-0. If Waterford win it will most definitely not be dull and boring, hell, even if they lose it will be highly enteraining.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 18, 2008, 04:52:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 18, 2008, 04:49:01 PM
Did Offay ever win an all Ireland where they started as favourites ?
I am really happy for all the good hurling people in Waterford - especially Deiseach and Deise girl. This all-ireland final has been a very long time coming. It seemed that true laochra iomanaiochta like Paul Flynn , Tony Browne and Ken McGrath would never get their day in the sun. There were so many heartbreaks - I was in Porky Corky in 2000 when Tipp beat them and even then it was hard to stomach.
In terms of emotional impact I think only Mayo breaking the duck would be equivalent.
If they stick with KK until the final 10 mins and are within 6 points then a Dooley style goal from a free and a couple of high balls into the full forward would be enough to make a 5 point win.
I am delighted for Eoin Kelly as well. As some fella from Mount Sion said about him, he's a fecker but he's their fecker.
I'm happy for them too, and I'd say Offaly may have been favourites in 1994, but I can't remember. But as you say, and as I alluded to, favourites don't always win. Waterford have the hurlers in key positions to take advantage of Kilkenny if they have an off day, and they are only human after all.
Finally, as for Kelly, he's not Mount Sion's fecker any more :D
Did Mount Sion not get rid of him after a row ?
QuoteDid Mount Sion not get rid of him after a row ?
The version I heard was that he was getting fed up of people from Mount Sion spying on him al the time. He would be in the pub drinking a lucozade for a few minutes and it would get back to Mount Sion that he was out on the tear all night. and so he left. Dont know how true that is though
QuoteI have a sneaky feeling big Dan is due a big game and the final could be the time he'll do it.
You might not be far off the mark here. He didnt have a terrible game in the semi. He seemed to be the one laying off the ball for a lot of Waterfords scores. He could be on fire in the final.
Quote from: Galforever on August 21, 2008, 04:08:34 PM
QuoteDid Mount Sion not get rid of him after a row ?
The version I heard was that he was getting fed up of people from Mount Sion spying on him al the time. He would be in the pub drinking a lucozade for a few minutes and it would get back to Mount Sion that he was out on the tear all night. and so he left. Dont know how true that is though
Probably had a couple of vodkas in the lucozade ! ;)
and if he had vodkas in it fair play. i dont think Eoin has had too many bad games for club and county.
I think Waterford have no choice but to persist with Big Dan and hope he comes good.
However with Kelly going so well at full forward, then there isn't much point in putting Shanahan near the square.
So wing forward is the place for him for the moment.
However he looks very slow this year, his striking is cumbersome and he is hitting the ball while standing still most times.
If Hickey is getting the better of Kelly or dispatches him to the Mater decapitated ;D then maybe you could throw Shanahan up there to vary it.
From the outside looking in I'd expect that Davy Fitz biggest challenge will be preventing players freezing on the big occasion. If Waterford play at their best they can do it but they have to treat it like a league final and not get bedazzled by one eye on Liam McCarthy. One thing in their favour unlike last year v Limerick is that they are the underdogs and everyone thinks its the Cats to lose.
Quote from: milltown row on August 22, 2008, 08:41:33 AM
and if he had vodkas in it fair play. i dont think Eoin has had too many bad games for club and county.
Maybe they help alright. Which club do you mean ??
What about tickets down there Milltown ? Is there a scramble ?
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 22, 2008, 08:45:14 AM
I think Waterford have no choice but to persist with Big Dan and hope he comes good.
However with Kelly going so well at full forward, then there isn't much point in putting Shanahan near the square.
So wing forward is the place for him for the moment.
However he looks very slow this year, his striking is cumbersome and he is hitting the ball while standing still most times.
If Hickey is getting the better of Kelly or dispatches him to the Mater decapitated ;D then maybe you could throw Shanahan up there to vary it.
In all the matches this year, plan B if Eoin Kelly is not going well, is to bring him to wing forward and put Big Dan inside - they persisted with this until he got the goal against Wexford - it took a long time and probably other managers would have had Dan off long before he scored the goal - but Davy obviously has faith in him ( maybe he has to have faith in him or else Big Dan and co. could lead a revolt ) so he kept him there and the rest is history.
cant wait for this game, have been a big fan of Waterford for many years. How are tickets going around there? I suppose the Decies will out number the Cats by 2 to one....
Find this a very hard match to call, up until the players shafted mccarthy earlier in the year i would firmly behind them no matter who they played but now i find it hard to support them.
Found myself shouting for tipp last weekend, not sure if that was due to a dislike for waterford now or a dislike for the qualifiers.
As has been said I think waterford will live with them up to half time and then kilkenny can go into another gear and blow them out of the water. Hope it is close for the excitement factor but cant see it somehow.
To me "Dan The Man" as the commentators infuriatingly call him does not seem as fit as previous years, last year on top of his skill levels and catching ability he was a fantastic athlete.
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:05:19 PM
To me "Dan The Man" as the commentators infuriatingly call him does not seem as fit as previous years, last year on top of his skill levels and catching ability he was a fantastic athlete.
Someone on this thread earlier said that he had eaten too many prize giving dinners !
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2008, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:05:19 PM
To me "Dan The Man" as the commentators infuriatingly call him does not seem as fit as previous years, last year on top of his skill levels and catching ability he was a fantastic athlete.
Someone on this thread earlier said that he had eaten too many prize giving dinners !
Thats exactly what i thought, he must of overdid it a bit on the prizegiving circuit. Still owns the best quote in years, took a point off Clares Seanie Mc Mahon and roared at him "ye arent f*cking marking Seanie Mc Grath now".........
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:45:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2008, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:05:19 PM
To me "Dan The Man" as the commentators infuriatingly call him does not seem as fit as previous years, last year on top of his skill levels and catching ability he was a fantastic athlete.
Someone on this thread earlier said that he had eaten too many prize giving dinners !
Thats exactly what i thought, he must of overdid it a bit on the prizegiving circuit. Still owns the best quote in years, took a point off Clares Seanie Mc Mahon and roared at him "ye arent f*cking marking Seanie Mc Grath now".........
I'd say Seanie Mac could mark him out of it even though he hasn't played as past few years.
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2008, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:45:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2008, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:05:19 PM
To me "Dan The Man" as the commentators infuriatingly call him does not seem as fit as previous years, last year on top of his skill levels and catching ability he was a fantastic athlete.
Someone on this thread earlier said that he had eaten too many prize giving dinners !
Thats exactly what i thought, he must of overdid it a bit on the prizegiving circuit. Still owns the best quote in years, took a point off Clares Seanie Mc Mahon and roared at him "ye arent f*cking marking Seanie Mc Grath now".........
I'd say Seanie Mac could mark him out of it even though he hasn't played as past few years.
That was Anthony Daly that 'Dan the man' said it to..
Quote from: heffo on August 25, 2008, 10:29:07 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2008, 03:06:10 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:45:38 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 22, 2008, 02:08:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on August 22, 2008, 02:05:19 PM
To me "Dan The Man" as the commentators infuriatingly call him does not seem as fit as previous years, last year on top of his skill levels and catching ability he was a fantastic athlete.
Someone on this thread earlier said that he had eaten too many prize giving dinners !
Thats exactly what i thought, he must of overdid it a bit on the prizegiving circuit. Still owns the best quote in years, took a point off Clares Seanie Mc Mahon and roared at him "ye arent f*cking marking Seanie Mc Grath now".........
I'd say Seanie Mac could mark him out of it even though he hasn't played as past few years.
That was Anthony Daly that 'Dan the man' said it to..
I'd say Daly had some "form" of an answer for him ! ;) ;)
The Cats by a margin of over 5 points, If they are on song we could see a bit of a mauling
Quote from: EddieMerx on August 25, 2008, 06:35:24 PM
The Cats by a margin of over 5 points, If they are on song we could see a bit of a mauling
Don't think it - Davy has them bouncing and they'll be very hard to break down.
"Don't think it - Davy has them bouncing and they'll be very hard to break down."
Limerick were bouncing last year but got a mauling, Cork were bouncing for the first 25 minutes this year against the cats, Wexford and Offaly were also bouncing for 35 mins against the Cats... I honestly don't believe Waterford are close to a Kilkenny team operating at near to 100%
Lads, if Kilkenny operate at 100%, then whether Waterford are bouncing or not is a moot point. Kilkenny at 100% are 5-10 points better than any other team in the country, at least. However, they are only human. Waterford need to make sure they are operating at 100% themselves, and if they are, they have the hurlers to take advantage of any Kilkenny off days. I don't think Kilkenny will have an off day because of complacency, but they may just have 'one of those days'.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 26, 2008, 10:17:22 AM
Lads, if Kilkenny operate at 100%, then whether Waterford are bouncing or not is a moot point. Kilkenny at 100% are 5-10 points better than any other team in the country, at least. However, they are only human. Waterford need to make sure they are operating at 100% themselves, and if they are, they have the hurlers to take advantage of any Kilkenny off days. I don't think Kilkenny will have an off day because of complacency, but they may just have 'one of those days'.
[/b]
It's a long time since Kilkeeny had one of those off days - it took a magnificent Cork team t deny them before and Waterford, with respect are not on a par with the Cork team of a few years ago.
I agree about Kilkenny's consistency, but I would have a bit more grá for the ability of the Waterford team than you. I think they have the hurlers to take advantage of any Kilkenny mishap, but I agree they won't win if both teams hurl 100%.
I suppose we'd like to see a real thriller on 7th September but Kilkenny won't be interested in providing entertainment - they're coming to Dublin to win an AI and it doesn't matter on jot to them how they achieve it or whether or not it's part of 3 in a row or 10 in a row !
Anyone would have to agree with a lot of previous comments here.
Waterford HAVE to play at their best, if not beyond it to even stand a chance against this Kilkenny team operating at 90%.
man for man, you'd be very hard pressed to come up with a single name on the Waterford 15 that would be better then his Kilkenny counterpart.
If Waterford are going to win this they will need to play out of their skins, they will need Kilkenny to NOT play at their best and they need about a gallon of luck sprinkled on top.
Some people have said that this Kilkenny team don't have the hunger, that they don't have the physical fight in them. bs, any team that has tried to outclass Kilkenny have been shown what class really is, any team that has tried to physically dominate this kilkenny team have gotten thrown round the field twice as hard back.
This Kilkenny team will be remembered for a long, long time.
Unfortunately I see as a problem that in talking about off days if Waterford had one from ,for example , Eoin Kelly they're scuppered. In the Leinster final Richie Power was the man - the last day he'd a bad day as did Comerford but they've the backup to pull them through. This ,I think, will be a big problem. If one big scorer is poor another one will stand up.Waterford, IMO, don't have enough big scorers and Dan the man needs to get the finger out.
First AIF itis would be a big problem. Lots of teams have crumbled under the pressure of the occasion. It would be exceptionally rare if at least three or four dont get lost completely, especially in the first half. I know of players who admitted that they missed scores they would have put over at under ten level, but due to the occasion they lost the power of their arms completely. And quite a few of the same team mates admitted to the same problem.
Kilkenny by 5 normally, but because of above, I reckon kilkenny by 10. Handicap betting i reckon will be kilkenny at evens minus 6 or 8.
I'd love to see waterford win it simply because hurling needs a new face. But I agree with the lad above - The Cats can win it easy if they want. 10 pts + i'd say. Look at Limerick last year!
Comparisons with Limerick in final last year don't stack up IMO. Limerick surprised most people by coming from nowhere to reach the '07 AIF. Waterford have been there or thereabouts for the last decade, having the ability to beat Cork in the championship but of course have yet to beat Kilkenny. Kilkenny are hot favourites, but maybe having reached the final will liberate the Déise lads as so many people are writing them off. You can imagine Davy Fitz screeching at them that nobody thinks that they're up to it and them going hell for leather for the 70+ minutes.
Can't see there being 10+ points in it - maybe 5 to Kilkenny. Waterford aren't a bad side - what kind of weather is forecast ? A bad day is a great leveller.
Really looking forward to it. Fingers crossed Waterford can pull it off. Was reading a few posts on different sites from Deise around the world. A lot of them flying home for the occasion. It will be quite the party if they do it. This for me is the highlight of the sporting year. Even if Kilkenny win it will be historic in the sense of them winning 3 in a row but I dont think it will create the hysterical reaction like we saw after the semi.
looking forward to the match myself really hope that waterford do it would especially like to see john mullane get his hands on a medal. Anyone know what odds waterford are to win it ? I'd say there will be no one left in waterford on sunday bound to be a few stirring songs been released now :D
Quote from: the Deel Rover on September 04, 2008, 10:27:33 AM
looking forward to the match myself really hope that waterford do it would especially like to see john mullane get his hands on a medal. Anyone know what odds waterford are to win it ? I'd say there will be no one left in waterford on sunday bound to be a few stirring songs been released now :D
I think Waterford are about 11/4, Kilkenny 10/11 (-5)
The weather forecast for the weekend is very bad so that could level things a bit.
Are the teams being announced tonight?
Quote from: Lecale2 on September 04, 2008, 10:52:57 AM
The weather forecast for the weekend is very bad so that could level things a bit.
Are the teams being announced tonight?
Well I don't know about rain being the great leveller, Rain tends to favour the players with good first touch and physical strength. Kilkenny in my books come out on top in both of these
Agree about the weather, as often as acting as a leveller it can more clearly illustrate the difference in class in terms of first touch, striking etc.
I think Waterford will bring incredible passion with them to this final, they have real quality forwards who can and will make life difficult for Hickey and co with Mullane, Mc Grath and especially Kelly in incredible form all year, they do need big performances from these three and moreso perhaps an increased performance from the half forwards esp Dan.
i believe even against a defence as tight as Kilkennys, Waterford can rake up a winning scoreline of around 2-14 ish, but it will be keeping KK out that will be the big problem. Problems with full back line for years, goals conceded regularly against much less ruthless forward units.
If it goes as i expect Kilkenny will win a entertaining game on a scoreline
Kilkenny 4-15 Waterford 2-14
Forecast is quite good for Sunday - Kilkenny will have too much for them all over the field - expect Waterford to rough them up in the first 10 - they'll throw the kitchen sink at the cats - will it be enough ? Will they need to throw the Fridge / freezer at them as well ?
try throwing the house, the bus, the eiffel tower, the statue of liberty and halleys comet and they'll still probably come up short. anything around 85% of the cork performance from the cats will be more than enough. i worry about the waterford defence, just can't see them stopping the cats scoring goals.
Quote from: INDIANA on September 04, 2008, 10:48:36 PM
try throwing the house, the bus, the eiffel tower, the statue of liberty and halleys comet and they'll still probably come up short. anything around 85% of the cork performance from the cats will be more than enough. i worry about the waterford defence, just can't see them stopping the cats scoring goals.
Are Kilkenny THAT good ?
Quoteanything around 85% of the cork performance from the cats will be more than enough. i worry about the waterford defence, just can't see them stopping the cats scoring goals.
Dont know about that. I feel Kilkenny will actually have to perform better than they have all year to win
I think on paper KK have it won but the match is still going ahead on Sunday as far as I know.
It is Kilkenny's to lose. Look at what Galway did to them in 2005.
Lads, I don't have time for my usual spiel, but ye know what I would say anyway :D One thing I would say is that the Waterford team seem to have taken the approach of hitting low, sensible balls into their quicker forwards like Eoin Mc and Mullane, and that tactic troubled Kilkenny when Wexford did it earlier in the year, and a couple of years ago. It goes without saying that Waterford will have to score pretty highly to win this game, and to do that they will have to win ball from 5-12 and let in the intelligent deliveries. High wide and handsome from 100 yards out is a waste of time against the Cats, they will have to be economical, and take goal chances if they get them.
Kilkenny will make hay against the Waterford full back line if they get ball in there, and I can't see Waterford stopping them scoring at least 2 goals. That means Waterford will have to score a couple themselves in my opinion.
My biggest worry for Waterford is that the 'occasion' will outweigh the game. Kilkenny will ate them alive if that's the case. Davy Fitz has been through a similar experience in '95, but the difference was the AIF was a bonus for Clare back then, the AIF was THE target for Waterford. Nonetheless he should bring a bit of nous to them Deise in that respect.
Waterford must play at 100% and hope Kilkenny have an off day, but I've said it before. If the Cats do drop their level, lads like Eoin Kelly, Mullane, Ken McGrath, Eoin McGrath, Tony Brown, Michael Walsh and maybe even Dan Shanahan will have the hurling to take advantage.
Problem is that I can't see the Cats having an off day. I can see them scoring 3 goals, Waterford scoring 1 or 2, and Kilkenny's goals coming at sickening times like early, just before and just after half time.
Sorry for not having too much time today, but my prediction is
Kilkenny 3-15 Waterford 2-11.
*Edit. I also predict, if the game goes Kilkenny's way, that at least one of the Waterford players will lose the rag and get the line, because they'll be so wound up, and upset.
If that happens, I would go
8/11 it will be Eoin Kelly
evens John Mullane
15/8 Dan Shanahan
2/1 Paul Flynn
7/2 Eoin McGrath
5/1 Ken McGrath
15:30 Kilkenny v Waterford
2 - 7 11 - 1 10 - 3
http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=go_disp_cat&disp_cat_id=53
(http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=2853&d=1220628330)
Well here is my pop at what I think will happen tomorrow. The finger nails are bittten down to the quick as they used say waiting on news for tickets, but just got the good news there now so I am really looking forward to a cracking game and that is what I expect it to be.
The factory below produced eleven of tomorrows Cats and I think I am right in saying they have already won the Intermediate All-Ireland, The Junior All-Ireland and the games tomorrow will, it is expected, give them a clean sweep. Looking at a program on RTE the other evening it appears there are plenty of kittens left in St.Kierans for years to come. Different media reports are saying this is the greatest team of all time. I do not subscribe to the theory that this team are unbeatable at all and being a Fennelly living right on their border I will be rooting for the Cat's tomorrow. However, against all the other odds I am predicting a Waterford win !.
Davy Fitz is one shrewd man, he will have his homework done on the Cats more so than any other manager Cody has faced to date. Hardy has predicted players who might get the line from Waterford. He could have predicted the entire team because they are going to be on fire in that first twenty minutes, Mullane in patrticular who I expect to stay in around the centre forwar position and make runs out to the wing when the ball is played up to him. The Waterford backs have impressed me this year and I expect that Fitzy will have told them to hurl their hearts out tomorrow. Will we see Hells Kitchen from one end of the park to the other? I think so and I think there won'y be more than a puck of the ball in it when the long whistle blows. Waterford by a point or two unless Eddie Brennan hits the onion sack twice in the first five minutes.
It'll be Hell for Leather as Davy says and "there is no such thing as can't" http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=_qgSVetdUeI&feature=related (http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=_qgSVetdUeI&feature=related)
(http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/pics/c_st_kierans_college_2.jpg)
Best of luck Waterford tomorrow. Really hope yee do it.
C'mon Waterford!!!
sitting here disappointed in waterford getting such a hiding but maybe now people will appreciate especially from cork how good the cats are. this is the greatest hurling team in the history of the game bar none.
Very sad to see Waterford getting such a beating but I wonder would any other county fare any better when Kilkenny are playing like this?
Absolutely awesome fom Kilkenny, every player is exceptional the skill, anticipation, workrate is phenomenal. Tommy Walsh's timing to catch that Waterford free that led to the second goal was excellent.
Can anyone beat them in the next 5 years or so?
that was the best team performance ever seen. that was ridiculous
speech is brutal, time to cut them out.
Great team though
Ruthlessly brilliant.
The telepathy was a joy to watch - always on hand to help out a team-mate after a fumble or misplaced pass, with ultimate ease.
Quote from: orangeman on September 04, 2008, 04:57:35 PM
Forecast is quite good for Sunday - Kilkenny will have too much for them all over the field - expect Waterford to rough them up in the first 10 - they'll throw the kitchen sink at the cats - will it be enough ? Will they need to throw the Fridge / freezer at them as well ?
Waterford tried a bit of roughing up - forgot about the hurling thogh - Kilkenny can do both.
Best team performance probably of all time !
Great team on the way up caught good team on the way down with awesome impact. Waterford lost by a point to KK in 98 and ended up today with FIVE of the 98 team on the park (Browne, McGrath, Shanahan, Flynn and Bennett) plus Tom Feeney on the subs bench. Who had KK from 98??? nobody is my guess. Really sorry for Tony Browne and Paul Flynn, they deserved better than that. Tipp the only outfit I see that can possibly challenge them in the medium term future and that won't be next year either I reckon.
Just awesome. You'd have to feel for Waterford, but what a display from Kilkenny.
sunday game man of the match went to the entire team for the complete team performance. class
Saw the game on the radio. Watched Sunday Game.
I think hurling has reached its peak. That performance cannot be matched. 2 wides! 3-30 in 70 minutes!
Waterford were unwilling patsys to an awesome Kilkenny performance. No other team, since time began, be it your Hell's Kitchen, Christy Ring, Mick Mackey, John Doyle, Tony Doran, Larry O'Gorman, Babs Keating, The Dooleys et al and their relatives would have lived with Kilkenny today.
I was up for Waterford but your have to doff the auld cap to the perfect performance.
Cody, the Alex Ferguson of Ireland, deserved the bauble tonight.
Well done Kilkenny.
Kavanagh was there in '98. Best performance I've ever seen. Even when Waterford still had a shout they couldn't do anything- all their big players were completely destroyed.
Breathtaking display from the cats. Unbelievable stuff.
Unbelievable stuff. Greatest performance in any code I've ever seen. Perfection personified
Jesus what was that? Even now it is just a blur to me. One of the greatest displays of hurling I have ever seen, ever in all my life. If the Waterford backs had began pulling when the first few balls came into them instead of before the game started it would have made a small difference, but very small.
One other thing, I predicted at half time that Cody would bring on James Mcgarry for the last few minutes and he did and I have to say fair play to the Waterford fans who stood up and joined in the standing ovation he got. The woman beside me had a tear in the eye and I thought to myself - only in the GAA. A special type of people with a very special sport are we indeed.
Off to City West at 11am, does be a great morning over there if anyone is going.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 08, 2008, 08:04:20 AM
Jesus what was that? Even now it is just a blur to me. One of the greatest displays of hurling I have ever seen, ever in all my life. If the Waterford backs had began pulling when the first few balls came into them instead of before the game started it would have made a small difference, but very small.
One other thing, I predicted at half time that Cody would bring on James Mcgarry for the last few minutes and he did and I have to say fair play to the Waterford fans who stood up and joined in the standing ovation he got. The woman beside me had a tear in the eye and I thought to myself - only in the GAA. A special type of people with a very special sport are we indeed.
Off to City West at 11am, does be a great morning over there if anyone is going.
That pretty much sums it up for me too.
The Kilkenny Cork semi was my first ever hurling match and Kilkenny blew me away with what I seen. Then they go and get better ???
QuoteKavanagh was there in '98.
Before the ball was thrown in yesterday the Cats that were on the field at the start had 52 All-Ireland SH Medals between them.
On the bench yesterday was a second team:
James McGarry (5 All-Ireland Medals)
John Dalton (2 All-Ireland SHC Medals)
P.J. Delany James Ryall (4 All-Ireland SHC Medals)
John Tennyson (2 All-Ireland SHC Medals)
Canice HickeyMichael Fennelly (2 All-Ireland SH Medals) Doncha Cody (2 All-Ireland SHC) Sean Cummins (2All-Ireland SH Medals)
Richie Mullaly (4 All-Ireland SH Medals) Michael Rice (2 All-Ireland SH Medals) Willie Dwyer (3 All-Ireland SHC Medals)
Eoin Reid (2 All-Ireland SHc Medals and TJ Reid and Richie Hogan have 1 All-Ireland SHC Medal each.
I think the only one of them on the team that started that was without one was Cha.
Then when you think that the bench is so young it looks like this team will be back a few more times. Richie Hogan, DJ's Nephew and TJ Reid are only 20 and not to mention the Minors, Juniors, Intermediate have all won this years All_irelands in a clean sweep.
God we have a lot of work to do in Laois! I wonder is Davy Fitz available.
Fantastic performance, fantastic team, fantastic manager. The best team in the country by a country mile. Hats off to them. I feel sorry for Waterford, what a wake up call, but I hope people go easy on them. We've seen for the past 6 or 7 years what this Kilkenny team is capable of when disposing of teams not as good as them. The rest of the country is seeing it now too.
That surely was an awsome display but the question is, are Kilkenny so far out in fornt or are the other teams just not that good? I think they are that good, however, it is not good for teh game. It reminds me of the 50's when Real Madrid spent all the money on buying players to sit ont he bench just so they would not have to play against them!
Although Kilkenny is not buying players, obviously, there is a financial discrepancy here that nobody at the GAA seems to want to talk about. The fact of the matter is that there are counties out there who filter all of their funding into one sport. In Kilkenny's case it is hurling, most of the northern counties it is football. It is the same for most of the stronger hurling counties in the past, Tipp, Waterford, Limerick, they all may have football teams but in fairness, they are token teams to make up the numbers.
Now, if say Wexford dropped the football and concentrated on the hurling only, maybe Kilkenny would have a challenger in Leinster. I think the GAA needs to look at this as a mtatter of urgency, I do not believe this crap of them being 'Born with hurleys in their hands'. There needs to be a level playing field. Search online and I dare you to prove me wrong, a disproportionate number of sports grants go to hurling in Kilkenny, from the GAA and National Lottery etc. If we want to be serious about promoting our game it does not serve it well to have one team consistently winning championships, maybe the GAA needs to impliment a ruling to have a proportionate amout of their funding spent on other GAA sprorts in each county. This may level the playing field.
This is not a rant nor a jibe at Kilkenny, greatness should be recognised in every sport, but I feel the future of the game needs the run away teams to be curtailed in some way.
Quote from: Rub-a-dub-Dub on September 08, 2008, 09:35:20 AM
That surely was an awsome display but the question is, are Kilkenny so far out in fornt or are the other teams just not that good? I think they are that good, however, it is not good for teh game. It reminds me of the 50's when Real Madrid spent all the money on buying players to sit ont he bench just so they would not have to play against them!
Although Kilkenny is not buying players, obviously, there is a financial discrepancy here that nobody at the GAA seems to want to talk about. The fact of the matter is that there are counties out there who filter all of their funding into one sport. In Kilkenny's case it is hurling, most of the northern counties it is football. It is the same for most of the stronger hurling counties in the past, Tipp, Waterford, Limerick, they all may have football teams but in fairness, they are token teams to make up the numbers.
Now, if say Wexford dropped the football and concentrated on the hurling only, maybe Kilkenny would have a challenger in Leinster. I think the GAA needs to look at this as a mtatter of urgency, I do not believe this crap of them being 'Born with hurleys in their hands'. There needs to be a level playing field. Search online and I dare you to prove me wrong, a disproportionate number of sports grants go to hurling in Kilkenny, from the GAA and National Lottery etc. If we want to be serious about promoting our game it does not serve it well to have one team consistently winning championships, maybe the GAA needs to impliment a ruling to have a proportionate amout of their funding spent on other GAA sprorts in each county. This may level the playing field.
This is not a rant nor a jibe at Kilkenny, greatness should be recognised in every sport, but I feel the future of the game needs the run away teams to be curtailed in some way.
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What a load of balls !!!!!! Kilkenny don't win titles because they get grants or National Lottery funding ! They win titles because they've got the best hurlers around - Shefflin, Brennan, Larkin, Cha, Hickey,Walsh, JJ, Kvanagh etc etc etc !
Money has NOTHING to do with it !
I suppose Kerry get a pile of grants as well ?????
QuoteI do not believe this crap of them being 'Born with hurleys in their hands'.
Neither do a lot of others believe it, and that is their downfall.
I live in an area where there is a green space down the road and years ago there were childrens playground equipment to be installed. It never was - insurance and people afraid that children would fall and claim insurance being the reason.
Did you see the program on St. Kierans College the other night, the college from where 11 of yesterdays team came from? There is no teacher in Dublin that would put children of the ages of the young lads shown through the training those young lads were getting. Why??? Because we have grown into an insurance claim culture that we can't shake off, if a woman fell on her arse in a shop down in Kerry or Laois she would run out the door with embarressment, if a woman fell on her arse in a shop in Dublin she would be carried out the door to a solicitor. Teachers are afraid to take on the responsibility and even where teachers are prepared to teach young lads up to 14 yrs they are still restricted by being responsible for those the train, apart from the fact that 90% of teachers are women and have no interest in hurling.
The only teachers that are not afraid to take on hurling and deal with the issues around being afraid of safety or a young lad getting a belt on the head are in St. Kierans and in my opinion the only way to stop the Cats dominance would be to blow it about six fet of the ground which would be a fairly extreme measure. Young lads need to be hurling from 6yrs of age and to do that training has to be part of the PE at all national schools, or at least optional. Most schools have hurling blanked for the reasons I have stated = except in Kilkenny of course where they are born with hurls in their hands and if you were down there this morning you would see them carrying them with their schoolbags to school.
Quote from: Bud Wiser on September 08, 2008, 09:54:46 AM
QuoteI do not believe this crap of them being 'Born with hurleys in their hands'.
Neither do a lot of others believe it, and that is their downfall.
I live in an area where there is a green space down the road and years ago there were childrens playground equipment to be installed. It never was - insurance and people afraid that children would fall and claim insurance being the reason.
Did you see the program on St. Kierans College the other night, the college from where 11 of yesterdays team came from? There is no teacher in Dublin that would put children of the ages of the young lads shown through the training those young lads were getting. Why??? Because we have grown into an insurance claim culture that we can't shake off, if a woman fell on her arse in a shop down in Kerry or Laois she would run out the door with embarressment, if a woman fell on her arse in a shop in Dublin she would be carried out the door to a solicitor. Teachers are afraid to take on the responsibility and even where teachers are prepared to teach young lads up to 14 yrs they are still restricted by being responsible for those the train, apart from the fact that 90% of teachers are women and have no interest in hurling.
The only teachers that are not afraid to take on hurling and deal with the issues around being afraid of safety or a young lad getting a belt on the head are in St. Kierans and in my opinion the only way to stop the Cats dominance would be to blow it about six fet of the ground which would be a fairly extreme measure. Young lads need to be hurling from 6yrs of age and to do that training has to be part of the PE at all national schools, or at least optional. Most schools have hurling blanked for the reasons I have stated = except in Kilkenny of course where they are born with hurls in their hands and if you were down there this morning you would see them carrying them with their schoolbags to school.
Very true and a very good post Bud ! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D
I suppose you have to get jibes in at Dublin people. I try to have a serious discussion and of course a Dub is not allowed to have an opinion about GAA, we are all coked up supporters who know nothing about the game eh!
It makes me sick to the back teeth the way Dubs are thought of in the GAA community.
Quote from: Rub-a-dub-Dub on September 08, 2008, 10:03:30 AM
I suppose you have to get jibes in at Dublin people. I try to have a serious discussion and of course a Dub is not allowed to have an opinion about GAA, we are all coked up supporters who know nothing about the game eh!
It makes me sick to the back teeth the way Dubs are thought of in the GAA community.
We all love the Dubs - sure they keep the association afloat - without them, there would be no GAA ! ;)
Quote from: orangeman on September 08, 2008, 10:06:48 AM
Quote from: Rub-a-dub-Dub on September 08, 2008, 10:03:30 AM
I suppose you have to get jibes in at Dublin people. I try to have a serious discussion and of course a Dub is not allowed to have an opinion about GAA, we are all coked up supporters who know nothing about the game eh!
It makes me sick to the back teeth the way Dubs are thought of in the GAA community.
We all love the Dubs - sure they keep the association afloat - without them, there would be no GAA ! ;)
Thank you oranageman, I was refering to the previous poster with the jibe about the insurance claims.....
Anyways, I am just trying to figure out, how can you make the playing field level with Kilkenny. I mean, it seems wrong to punish greatness, but something has to be done, otherwise kids in other counties will have no interest in playing the game we all love and my fear is that it will die a death in some of the smaller counties.
As someone on the radio yesterday evening said, this Kilkenny team will NOT last forever and will come to an end sometime - all this talk of 6 in a row is shite - it won't happen !
23 point hidings in All reland finals are very rare - Wateford created a stick for themselves when they got rid of Mc Carthy and the truth is that not a lot of neutrals have any sympathy for what happened yesterday.
Maybe Brian Cody will retire, or better yet, create a new dynasty in Offaly :D
It's always darkest just before the dawn.
As a Mayoman I felt I had to come on and say to all Waterford fans that I know the pain!! Take a while away from it and in a few months ye'll be only rarin for a bit of action again. Keep the head up and keep the faith. Hopefully ye'll make it some day, though I feel this team missed the boat in 04 and again last year.
Kilkenny are awesome no doubt about it. It takes a fantastic team to win a three-in-a-row and they are one of the best ever. However they won't last forever. Kerry won 7 titles in 9 years in the 80's in football and then went 11 years without winning one. Sure they'll be odds on to win it next year but maybe with Galway in Leinster things mightn't be quite as easy for them over the next few years.
People should also remember the final of 06 when Kilkenny stopped Cork from the 3-in-a-row. Everyone back then was saying Cork were the team of the decade and now it's Kilkenny. Things change faster than ye think
Rub a dub dub,
I am not getting at Dubs, it is fair to say that in certain large cities there is more of a claim culture than others. I install CCTV for shops and the main reason is to detect false insurance claims - that happens in Dublin more than in the country and the trend in the country for repair of a broken arm is still a bit of goose grease or a bonesetter or maybe the odd trip to the hospital and back to work but claiming is not as prolific. I'll put it a different way, and I am sorry if it offends you because it is not intended to. I would give anything to be allowed train a group of young lads to play hurling, I would love it - but - I would be a bit scared about the insurance risk of doing it in Dublin as against down in the sticks. It is just a fact of life, nothing to do with getting at Dublin, there are hundreds of thousands of children in Dublin out of a population of 1.75 million and not one of them going to school today would have had a hurl. The reason they don't is because teachers at national level don't want them to have them.
Ballyboden and indeed all the clubs do a wonderful job with the young lads but counties like the Cats have five years of skill level in the tank ahead of them before they even line out for an U14 game. If one school, just one school in Dublin adapted hurling as part of the daily luchtime break, even twice a week they have a huge advantage over any other youg lad.
(When I was in Croke Park at the Cats V Cork game I went to buy a hurley for a six year old I am learning the basics to from behind the Cusack Stand - It was retrieved from the back of the shop with efficiency by the girl who informed me that it was €24 ! Maybe that is another reason why we can't promote hurling)
The most impressive thing about that Kilkenny team is their workrate, of course they have skill levels that dont seem human but these fellas never stop tackling. Eoin Kelly came back very deep to help out the backs in the second half and he was tormented by Kilkenny forwards, every time he got the ball there were three round him thumping him (legally). I couldnt see the Waterford backs trying to soften up the Kilkenny forwards as i was towrds Hill 16, i was busy watching Jackie Tyrell softening up Eoin Mc Grath, he spent the first 5 minutes burying his shoulder into Mc Grath before the ball came. People forget Kilkenny players are all wirey, strong f*ckers who will hit you harder than you have been hit before.
Quote from: Minder on September 08, 2008, 11:24:56 AM
The most impressive thing about that Kilkenny team is their workrate, of course they have skill levels that dont seem human but these fellas never stop tackling. Eoin Kelly came back very deep to help out the backs in the second half and he was tormented by Kilkenny forwards, every time he got the ball there were three round him thumping him (legally). I couldnt see the Waterford backs trying to soften up the Kilkenny forwards as i was towrds Hill 16, i was busy watching Jackie Tyrell softening up Eoin Mc Grath, he spent the first 5 minutes burying his shoulder into Mc Grath before the ball came. People forget Kilkenny players are all wirey, strong f*ckers who will hit you harder than you have been hit before.
Eoin Kelly didn't know what hit him yesterday -
Who was the guys that were hitting the hardest and most often ?
Eddie Brennan and King Henry ! So if they're doing it, the others have to step up as well.
Just out of interest lads what was the price of the tickets for the game yesterday? because i saw tickets with no prices on them and was just wondering what they would have cost for the final.
Quote from: winsamsoon on September 08, 2008, 01:16:59 PM
Just out of interest lads what was the price of the tickets for the game yesterday? because i saw tickets with no prices on them and was just wondering what they would have cost for the final.
€ 70 each
cheers orangeman.
Fair play like, they really were something else yesterday. They completley outplayed Waterford on every area of the pitch. Like Waterford were awful but KK were another machine completley. Fair dues like, what a game they had, what a team they are.
all this talk of 6 in a row is shite - it won't happen !
quite willing to bet that it will. who's going to beat them?
tj reid, richie hogan etc etc etc. cha is 23, 23 fuckin years of age, its absolutely bloody frightening.
I was at the game and I watched the video last night. It gets better each time I see it. 5-6 in row is a tall order but I wouldn't bet against it.
Quoteall this talk of 6 in a row is shite - it won't happen !
Depends on the will & motivation. I'm sure Kilkenny could make the semis every year just training 3 months of the year. Depends a lot on how motivated Cork & Tipp are to stop them. Sorry if this appears dismissive of other counties chances.
Who can challenge them over the next two years?? Tipp are overhyped, Cork need another two years at least to rebuild, Galway...... well they are Galway.
Strange to think before the 2006 final Kilkenny were underdogs, the only thing that can stop them winning at least 5 in a row is themselves. If they play to 80% of their potential nobody can beat them. They are at least 7 points better than the rest most of the time and when they want to they can run up any score they please. For a team to beat them they would need to score 2 or 3 goals, can you see that defence coughing up and the opposition stopping Kilkenny scoring 2-20. I wonder what their average score has been throughout the 3 in a row.
The evolution of this brand of hurling has taken 3 years, strange but I think Kilkenny are only going to get better. In 2006 they introduced the intensity (they suffocated Cork in the final) 2007 this intensity was combined with the more traditional Kilkenny skill and in 2008, well words can't describe just how good they are.
I know they're a great team - but teams have historically been caught out. What will happen Kilkenny if they lose Henry and maybe a couple of others and the other team have a great day - Kilkenny can get beat - nothing is impossible.
So I really can't see 5 or 6 in a row to be honest.
Maybe if Brian Cody decides he's had enough, there'll be a bit of a lull. Grasping at straws a bit, but I think Cody is the glue for Kilkenny at the moment.
I think Cody is the key alright - he seems to have his players up for every match they play.
I think a big factor is the strength of their bench, if a player drops their performance even slightly they are off, it must be a huge motivating factor for the starting 15.
What other manager 26 points up would not have emptied the bench ??????
Quote from: EddieMerx on September 09, 2008, 11:02:53 AM
Who can challenge them over the next two years?? Tipp are overhyped, Cork need another two years at least to rebuild, Galway...... well they are Galway.
I do think this 6 in a row is bull and typical Kk fans getting ahead of themselves, I didn't say anything with them celebrating the win on Sunday but this 5 and 6 in a row is bull. I'm not even sure they'll win next season. I think as good and I mean as good as they were against Waterford I honestly think that that'll be a one off, or else they've been given way too much time to just perfect their game, not worrying about who's next or whatever.
I think Cork might be a season off winning the AI, we've a good few youngsters all right who didn't get much of a run in this season. They hopefully will next season but it might just be a bit too early, depending on how the league goes.
So who will win it next year then Reillers if your not sure Kilkenny will?
You have a real bee in your bonnet about Kilkenny Reillers.
Sunday's game they were superb. They have brilliant individuals and the work rate they show in denying opponents time and space on the ball is amazing however I think that other teams can, and have to, step up to the plate with the work rate and replicate it.
Others thought it wasn't possible of the Tyrone team of 2003 but it was shown to be.
Realistically the only team with the hurlers close enough to even threaten Kilkenny is Cork in my opinion. Galway could have, if they get the finger out, hurlers to threaten them. Tipperary may do in time though - O'Mahoney and McGrath are superb hurlers and then there's obviously Eoin Kelly so if they could build round them.
A lot of stepping up required by a lot of people though. TJ Reid would get on any other team in the game and be a star and there's probably a few others like it so not like there's a 15 there who will fall by the wayside in one go. Kilkenny won't lower in standard with this depth - it's just up to others to step up.
I didn't say they wont superb, I said they were great about 500 times over since the final, that it's the closest thing to perfection I've seen in the game, but I don't think they can replicate that again, I think as fantastic as KK are and they were bloody fantastic, Waterford were that bad, Cork, Tipp, hell Galway even would have given them a better run out then Waterford did.
I don't think they'll win it next season, I didn't say Cork would either, I actually said that Cork will need a season to get back on track. It's my oppinion for no other reason then a feeling that I don't think they'll win the AI.
I think someone needs to step up next season, I think Cork might do it, for pride more then anything. But it might be a season too soon, but I think I hope that the kids on the wings will be brought in, and there's some very good players there, but if that's the case there might be a bit too much inexperience there, we'll go in to win it all right but it might come a season too soon. I think a lot will be depending on how the League goes really and if we play our players who are there waiting to be played, but of course aren't getting a run in. I think we'll be a challenge next season, we might even get to the final, but it depends really on the team that'll be played. We've players there that are just waiting, just waiting to have a run in the team, it's up to the manager to play them, they didn't get enough of a chance last season because we were playing catch up because of the strike but hopefully this will be their year.
I said back in at the start of the season that Waterford would be in the final and I got fierce looks saying it would be Tipp, I said Tyrone would be in the final as well, and I was again told that the chances of that were pretty slim.
I think KK wont win it next season, they can't and wont ever play that good again, with all due respect to them, they can't repeat that preformance, it's nothing to do with how good they are. It'd be impossible, they wont be against a team as poor as Waterford were in the final again for awhile anyway. And I think that that was their peak, teams peak, that was it, they look and are fantastic but all teams have a curve, I think tops there's only maybe a season or two left in them, it's something that happens to all teams and that's something even Cody can't fix. IF they can replicate that again then they've way too much time on their hands and Leinster needs a fast dramatic make over.
Quote from: Reillers on September 09, 2008, 08:21:14 PM
I didn't say they wont superb, I said they were great about 500 times over since the final, that it's the closest thing to perfection I've seen in the game, but I don't think they can replicate that again, I think as fantastic as KK are and they were bloody fantastic, Waterford were that bad, Cork, Tipp, hell Galway even would have given them a better run out then Waterford did.
I don't think they'll win it next season, I didn't say Cork would either, I actually said that Cork will need a season to get back on track. It's my oppinion for no other reason then a feeling that I don't think they'll win the AI.
I think someone needs to step up next season, I think Cork might do it, for pride more then anything. But it might be a season too soon, but I think I hope that the kids on the wings will be brought in, and there's some very good players there, but if that's the case there might be a bit too much inexperience there, we'll go in to win it all right but it might come a season too soon. I think a lot will be depending on how the League goes really and if we play our players who are there waiting to be played, but of course aren't getting a run in. I think we'll be a challenge next season, we might even get to the final, but it depends really on the team that'll be played. We've players there that are just waiting, just waiting to have a run in the team, it's up to the manager to play them, they didn't get enough of a chance last season because we were playing catch up because of the strike but hopefully this will be their year.
I said back in at the start of the season that Waterford would be in the final and I got fierce looks saying it would be Tipp, I said Tyrone would be in the final as well, and I was again told that the chances of that were pretty slim.
I think KK wont win it next season, they can't and wont ever play that good again, with all due respect to them, they can't repeat that preformance, it's nothing to do with how good they are. It'd be impossible, they wont be against a team as poor as Waterford were in the final again for awhile anyway. And I think that that was their peak, teams peak, that was it, they look and are fantastic but all teams have a curve, I think tops there's only maybe a season or two left in them, it's something that happens to all teams and that's something even Cody can't fix. IF they can replicate that again then they've way too much time on their hands and Leinster needs a fast dramatic make over.
KK could play at 80% of Sunday's level and will still win it next year. They don't need to play as good as that again to win another AI. A season or two left in them, you're joking aren't you, with young lads like Tommy Walsh, Cha, TJ Reid to name but 3. They have year in them. They change their team so seamlessly each year.
Never mind a Leinster makeover, if you put KK into Munster for a year or two everybody would be saying it's farcical like they are saying about Leinster as KK would walk it. It's up to everybody else to match the standard set by KK, and I can't see them being beat for a long time. They haven't lost a championship match since '05. I think only Cork or Tipp can hope to push them within 10 points, Galway have the hurlers but not the resolve (Joe Canning and one or two others aside)
Quote from: Reillers on September 09, 2008, 08:21:14 PM
I didn't say they wont superb, I said they were great about 500 times over since the final, that it's the closest thing to perfection I've seen in the game, but I don't think they can replicate that again, I think as fantastic as KK are and they were bloody fantastic, Waterford were that bad, Cork, Tipp, hell Galway even would have given them a better run out then Waterford did.
I don't think they'll win it next season, I didn't say Cork would either, I actually said that Cork will need a season to get back on track. It's my oppinion for no other reason then a feeling that I don't think they'll win the AI.
I think someone needs to step up next season, I think Cork might do it, for pride more then anything. But it might be a season too soon, but I think I hope that the kids on the wings will be brought in, and there's some very good players there, but if that's the case there might be a bit too much inexperience there, we'll go in to win it all right but it might come a season too soon. I think a lot will be depending on how the League goes really and if we play our players who are there waiting to be played, but of course aren't getting a run in. I think we'll be a challenge next season, we might even get to the final, but it depends really on the team that'll be played. We've players there that are just waiting, just waiting to have a run in the team, it's up to the manager to play them, they didn't get enough of a chance last season because we were playing catch up because of the strike but hopefully this will be their year.
I said back in at the start of the season that Waterford would be in the final and I got fierce looks saying it would be Tipp, I said Tyrone would be in the final as well, and I was again told that the chances of that were pretty slim.
I think KK wont win it next season, they can't and wont ever play that good again, with all due respect to them, they can't repeat that preformance, it's nothing to do with how good they are. It'd be impossible, they wont be against a team as poor as Waterford were in the final again for awhile anyway. And I think that that was their peak, teams peak, that was it, they look and are fantastic but all teams have a curve, I think tops there's only maybe a season or two left in them, it's something that happens to all teams and that's something even Cody can't fix. IF they can replicate that again then they've way too much time on their hands and Leinster needs a fast dramatic make over.
Good picking but are Waterford now officially the 2nd best team in Ireland. If they are, then Kilkeeny will win it next year again.
Does that mean Limerick was the second best team last season. I don't think so.
Waterford despite getting to the final weren't that good. One of the reasons I picked them to get in the final was because it was just obvious, everyone expected Tipp, everyone wrote off Waterford completley, after firing for the past 2 seasons. When it came down to it last season or so, they didn't live up to expectations or they believed what they read, I don't know, but the media had them pinned as their cover boys, as their favorites, they had so much pressure on them, this season they just fell off the media radar but they still wanted it as badly, if not more then before.
People say it should have been a Waterford Kilkenny final last season, maybe it should have I don't know, we would have definitly gotten a better game, Waterford might have even won. But this season they weren't that good, they got to the final all right by they weren't as good as they were last season by a long shot. SO no, I think the best team in Ireland is KK, the second best, I'd say Cork, but I don't know, it's a matter of oppinion. But not Waterford, not as good as they were, which is a pitty, would have been a good final.
can you send me some of the stuff you're taking Reillers. Maybe I can self delude myself into thinking that i've got the wealth of Abu Dhabi, look like james dean and am married to Gisele. !
Waterford were shite but cork can't get withing 8-9 of them and they are the second best, the rest aren't going to magically get better in 12 months. Hurling more tha any other game takes years to improve. Of the top 12 counties we can at this stage dismiss the claims of laois,dublin,antrim,offaly,wexford,limierick,clare,waterford,galway in my view. leaving cork, tipp and kilkenny. Cork will always give the cats a game but i can't see them beating the cats next year and I don;t think tipp are a s good as people think they are. Only Cork could break this cats team but it definitely won;t be next year or the year after in my view. maybe in 3 years they can.
Have anyone got a copy of this game? I missed it :(
can you send me some of the stuff you're taking Reillers. Maybe I can self delude myself into thinking that i've got the wealth of Abu Dhabi, look like james dean and am married to Gisele. !
Waterford were shite but cork can't get withing 8-9 of them and they are the second best, the rest aren't going to magically get better in 12 months. Hurling more tha any other game takes years to improve. Of the top 12 counties we can at this stage dismiss the claims of laois,dublin,antrim,offaly,wexford,limierick,clare,waterford,galway in my view. leaving cork, tipp and kilkenny. Cork will always give the cats a game but i can't see them beating the cats next year and I don;t think tipp are a s good as people think they are. Only Cork could break this cats team but it definitely won;t be next year or the year after in my view. maybe in 3 years they can.
[/quote]
Did you read my post at all?? I said that Waterford were shite, that IN MY OPINION Cork were second best but that was a matter of oppinion and now all you've done is parrot me.
Well done.
its the typical begrudging shite that emanates from Cork reillers. Your noses are out of joint that Kilkenny have produced a team that its better than anything you've ever have.
I would quite happily put my mortage on kilkenny winning the next 2 all-irelands, and as for "they won't win it next year" , who will then? Only kilkenny can lose next year's all-ireland and that won't happen with cody in charge. with minor and intermediate all-irelands in the bag and the 21 final to come yet, its a fanciful notion to think that the cats will be beaten next year when 9 of the 12 teams can be dismiissed as having absolutely no chance next year and the conveyor belt of talent they have.
Realistically only Tipp could stop them in a few years IF everyone of their star minors comes through, which probably won;t happen as Tipp has a brutal record of bringing players through. Cork will give them a game but again won't beat them unless there is a drastic influx of forwards. The reality is TJ Reid who can't get on the Kilkenny team is beter than any of the young Cork forwards like Naughton, Horgan or Cronin. Unless Cork find 3 Joe Deane's in his prime in the next 9 months they can scratch off the next couple of years.
Quote from: INDIANA on September 10, 2008, 08:48:37 PM
its the typical begrudging shite that emanates from Cork reillers. Your noses are out of joint that Kilkenny have produced a team that its better than anything you've ever have.
I would quite happily put my mortage on kilkenny winning the next 2 all-irelands, and as for "they won't win it next year" , who will then? Only kilkenny can lose next year's all-ireland and that won't happen with cody in charge. with minor and intermediate all-irelands in the bag and the 21 final to come yet, its a fanciful notion to think that the cats will be beaten next year when 9 of the 12 teams can be dismiissed as having absolutely no chance next year and the conveyor belt of talent they have.
Realistically only Tipp could stop them in a few years IF everyone of their star minors comes through, which probably won;t happen as Tipp has a brutal record of bringing players through. Cork will give them a game but again won't beat them unless there is a drastic influx of forwards. The reality is TJ Reid who can't get on the Kilkenny team is beter than any of the young Cork forwards like Naughton, Horgan or Cronin. Unless Cork find 3 Joe Deane's in his prime in the next 9 months they can scratch off the next couple of years.
Where the f**k are you getting all this from, what did I actually say. Anything that might have remotely pissed you off was my oppinion, and I even said that it was MY OPINION.
Don't know what you're getting so wound up about, I said nothing.
Back to the game. Just downloaded and watched the game http://www.bitdig.com/torrent/tv-shows/download-1354816/GAA-All-Ireland-Hurling-Final-Kilkenny-V-Waterford-7th-Sept-08.htmll (http://www.bitdig.com/torrent/tv-shows/download-1354816/GAA-All-Ireland-Hurling-Final-Kilkenny-V-Waterford-7th-Sept-08.htmll).
Christ it was powerful, them cats are rutless everyone one them singing from the same sheet! I dont what more i can say about them there just unreal.
"its the typical begrudging shite that emanates from Cork reillers"
I have to take issue with this one. I am also from Cork and I am as bewildered by the lack of understanding and objectivity shown in some of Reillers posts as anyone else. Kilkenny are awesome! They will surely go on to break records and create a dynasty that will be hard to match. That is the feeling among 99% of rebel fans including the die hards. Obviously every county has gobshites but this is the exception and certainly ot the rule. In general the rebel supporters have been gracious in accepting that this kk team is a notch above the rest of us. No flukes/no excuses and certainly no begrudgery here.
Are you sure you are from Cork barry? :D
Ah no, in all seriousness, what I find with Cork people is they are very confident of themselves and their team, but when they get beaten, they are very generous losers. In fairness to Reillers, I think he has said that Kilkenny were savage. He just isn't ready to concede that they are unbeatable. I admire that, and I think he might be right. There's always a chance someone will catch Kilkenny on an off day, and it's very premature in my opinion to be talking about 3 years down the line.
Quote from: AZOffaly on September 12, 2008, 11:20:36 AM
what I find with Cork people is ... when they get beaten, they are very generous losers.
You'd find few Meath people to agree with that AZ.
Just my experience Hardy. I think that Meath team got all sorts of feathers ruffled. That was an unsually spiteful relationship between themselves and Cork in 87-90.
Ah I know - we can all only go on our experiences and to be honest, the Corkonians aren't that bad when you've got over the first fifteen years of living amongst them. It's just that their reaction to being beaten in the AIF of '88 was the furthest thing from being generous losers that I can think of. That's just what made me give a little splutter when I saw that phrase in your post.
It would be well forgotten at this stage, from my point of view, if they'd just drop it, but I still get it nearly every time I'm introduced as a Meathman down here. Mostly it's banter, but not always.
I find Cork people are better in defeat than in winning!!
Quote from: EddieMerx on September 12, 2008, 03:28:27 PM
I find Cork people are better in defeat than in winning!!
Cork people are lovely people - the sun is always shining there !
I may have started a love/hate fest there by accident but that certainly wasn't my intention lads. Just trying to disown Reillers insanity more than anything else really. While we're at it though I think Offaly, KK, Galway, Meath etc etc are all great!! Heck Ill even throw Kerry in there for shits n giggles :) Still hope the Northerners give em the slip. Its nice to be nice but rivalries are rivalries. Would be a boring auld world without them.
According to yesterdays papers, Fitzy has told the senior players in Wateford that he isn't going back - any thoughts ?
Has he realised himself that there is no future there ? Does he want the Clare job or has he simply too much on his plate ?
Fitzy has said throughout that despite managing Waterford he is a clare man to the core. He was lucky this year that the two teams did not meet, if he stayed for 2 or 3 years he would be bound to meet clare sooner or later. Also after the dumping in the final there is a big rebuilding job needed in Waterford perhaps he did not fancy the job long term.
Is the Clare job vacant ??
No, It was Mike Mac's first year in charge and he did well with Clare so he'll be staying on. i think Davy has a great future ahead of him as a manager but knows the talent is not there in Waterford to win an All - Ireland. The heroes of the past decade - Flynn, Shanahan, Prendergast, Browne, Bennett, Kelly, Mullane, Mcgrath x 2 will be starting to depart the scene and there is a fairly mediocre bunch waiting to replace them. Its sad to see this great team go but all good things must come to an end. I would be very surprised if Waterford got back to an All - Ireland final in the next 10 years.
Davy has said he would love to be involved in the set up that stops Kilkenny but id say he feels the raw materials he needs lie elsewhere. I'd love to see him get the Galway job, and Id say the flow of underage talent could pesuade him to take it. Whether the Galway county board share my high opinion of Davy is another matter.
Quote from: Asal Mor on September 15, 2008, 10:33:36 PM
No, It was Mike Mac's first year in charge and he did well with Clare so he'll be staying on. i think Davy has a great future ahead of him as a manager but knows the talent is not there in Waterford to win an All - Ireland. The heroes of the past decade - Flynn, Shanahan, Prendergast, Browne, Bennett, Kelly, Mullane, Mcgrath x 2 will be starting to depart the scene and there is a fairly mediocre bunch waiting to replace them. Its sad to see this great team go but all good things must come to an end. I would be very surprised if Waterford got back to an All - Ireland final in the next 10 years.
Davy has said he would love to be involved in the set up that stops Kilkenny but id say he feels the raw materials he needs lie elsewhere. I'd love to see him get the Galway job, and Id say the flow of underage talent could pesuade him to take it. Whether the Galway county board share my high opinion of Davy is another matter.
Eoin Kelly is only 25
John Mullane 27
Eoin McGrath 27
Declan Prendergast 27
Seamus Prendergast 28
Ken McGrath 30
Add in.....
Stephen Molumphy 24
Jack Kennedy 26
Aidan Kearney 24
'Brick' Walsh 25
Kevin Moran 21
Quote from: dodo on September 15, 2008, 11:44:03 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on September 15, 2008, 10:33:36 PM
No, It was Mike Mac's first year in charge and he did well with Clare so he'll be staying on. i think Davy has a great future ahead of him as a manager but knows the talent is not there in Waterford to win an All - Ireland. The heroes of the past decade - Flynn, Shanahan, Prendergast, Browne, Bennett, Kelly, Mullane, Mcgrath x 2 will be starting to depart the scene and there is a fairly mediocre bunch waiting to replace them. Its sad to see this great team go but all good things must come to an end. I would be very surprised if Waterford got back to an All - Ireland final in the next 10 years.
Davy has said he would love to be involved in the set up that stops Kilkenny but id say he feels the raw materials he needs lie elsewhere. I'd love to see him get the Galway job, and Id say the flow of underage talent could pesuade him to take it. Whether the Galway county board share my high opinion of Davy is another matter.
Eoin Kelly is only 25
John Mullane 27
Eoin McGrath 27
Declan Prendergast 27
Seamus Prendergast 28
Ken McGrath 30
Add in.....
Stephen Molumphy 24
Jack Kennedy 26
Aidan Kearney 24
'Brick' Walsh 25
Kevin Moran 21
Quite a decent squad there - plenty work on - Personally I thought Big Dan held Waterford back this year - it just didn't happen for him.
Fair enough dodo. I would have thought that some of those guys were older. They just seem to have been around a long time. I still think Waterford are starting on the downhill slope though. They remind me of Offaly around 2000. I just don't see anything special coming through - Molumphy, Kearney, Kennedy etc. - Decent hurlers but not in the same class as the guys heading out the door - Flynn, Shanahan, Browne etc. Davy has great ambitions and unreal appetite for the game as a manager. If he thought there was an All - Ireland in Waterford he'd be staying.
Ah I agree Asal, those older lads will be very hard to replace. The young lads from the De La Salle Waterford two college wins will be a while coming through, no guarantee of it either. Funny thing about De La Salle's win was that the sub that got the winning point for them ( Danny Purcell ) also scored the winning goal for the Kilkenny minors in their All-Ireland win over Galway, also coming on as a sub.
told directly by someone who knows the scene in kilkenny who says a substantial part of De La Salle's teams were from kilkenny , which might explian the lack of waterford's impact at minor and u21. I don't think there is anything much coming through there at all, and ny time i've seen waterford playing dublin at underage level, can't say i've been impressed.
That's interesting Indiana. I thought that most of this year's winning team was actually from Waterford with only a couple from Kilkenny. It didn't do them much good in the minor championship at any event - Cork hammered them. School's success is not always a true barometer of minors. St Flannan's is a good example of that.
I would not see Davy Fitzgerald leaving Waterford as being a blow to Waterford at all. He showed in the AIF, that he has not got what it takes to manage a top inter county team. He had no idea what to do that day. I think that Waterford have a few lean years ahead of them and I doubt if Davy would want to be part of that.
Quote from: Onlooker on September 17, 2008, 11:09:48 AM
I would not see Davy Fitzgerald leaving Waterford as being a blow to Waterford at all. He showed in the AIF, that he has not got what it takes to manage a top inter county team. He had no idea what to do that day. I think that Waterford have a few lean years ahead of them and I doubt if Davy would want to be part of that.
Who did know what to do ?? Perhaps he should not have come out for the 2nd half ?
Quote from: Onlooker on September 17, 2008, 11:09:48 AM
I would not see Davy Fitzgerald leaving Waterford as being a blow to Waterford at all. He showed in the AIF, that he has not got what it takes to manage a top inter county team. He had no idea what to do that day. I think that Waterford have a few lean years ahead of them and I doubt if Davy would want to be part of that.
I agree, where people are getting the idea Davy is a good manager is beyond me. He may in time become a good one but he has done nothing, that I'm aware of, to date that suggests he will become a quality manager.
Quotetold directly by someone who knows the scene in kilkenny who says a substantial part of De La Salle's teams were from kilkenny , which might explian the lack of waterford's impact at minor and u21.
I'm pretty sure you are wrong there Indiana, if memory serves me 12 or 13 of the starting 15 were Waterford lads. I think you'll find Waterford will remain competitive for the foreseeable future there are far more lads (and clubs) playing hurling seriously than in any time in the county's history.
Davy Fitz has brought nothing to Waterford that McCarthy didn't. He made Waterford what they are, McCarthy came and not only brought in great players but changed the attitude of the players completley. He said on the Road to Croker when asked was there a difference between Cork and Waterford players attitude and he said that Waterford players had a more we'll give it a lash attitude, while the Cork players went into every match expecting to win, they never go in expecting to loose, because success is bred into them because of years and years of success and ability to have confidence that's never crushed. Justin McCarthy put belief and confidence into the Waterford hurlers and into Waterford hurling as a whole. He brought it to a new level and the only thing that he didn't do that Davy Fitz has is get them to a final, which he should have, and he was so close to doing that, a whisker away like.
But they were better under Justin, they were a lot better.
So many people have said that Waterford were so naive against Kilkenny, and they were, they were unbelievably naive. They weren't ready for Kilkenny, they weren't prepared and they were awful, really, really awful. Kilkenny were fantastic but Waterford were pathetic. They had a nice easy enought route to the final, Tipp were too young, they weren't ready and wont be for another season or two. McCarthy probably would have got them to the final, and while they mightn't have beaten KK they certainly would have put up a better fight, and wouldn't have gotten humiliated like they did.
Davy isn't a good manager, and nothing, besides a better relationship with the players apparently, he did came anywhere near what McCarthy brought to Waterford.
I don't see how people think he's a good manager, he's just a myth, nothing more then hype is behind Davy's name as a manager.
Quote from: Zulu on September 17, 2008, 01:55:57 PM
Quotetold directly by someone who knows the scene in kilkenny who says a substantial part of De La Salle's teams were from kilkenny , which might explian the lack of waterford's impact at minor and u21.
I'm pretty sure you are wrong there Indiana, if memory serves me 12 or 13 of the starting 15 were Waterford lads. I think you'll find Waterford will remain competitive for the foreseeable future there are far more lads (and clubs) playing hurling seriously than in any time in the county's history.
QuoteDe La Salle Waterford, All-Ireland Champions 2008
Another game, another title for De La Salle. Remember when winning the Harty Cup was a scarcely conceivable target for Waterford hurling? Going forward, you cling to the truth that a) 13 of the 15 players are from Waterford, and b) all the evidence suggests they fear no one, twice coming out on the right side of one point games in the All-Ireland final against our betters in Kilkenny and Tipperary respectively.
And yet, it is important to celebrate it for what it is now: a Waterford team of any stripe winning a senior hurling All-Ireland. Even if none of this team graduate to the inter-county senior ranks, they have done us all proud and should be able to enjoy the plaudits without being pressurised into being the next Great White Hope of Waterford hurling.
Source : http://deiseach.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/de-la-salle-waterford-all-ireland-champions-2008/
don't think so zulu there was 5 kilkenny starters including michael grace is was arguably their best player , i've seen pretty much all de la salle has to offer and bar a few notable exceptions i didn't see much , either that or dublin are simply miles better than them and considering we were a good bit behind kilkenny this year, doesn't bode well for them.
As for Reillers post on Mc Carthy, i agree completely.
Posted by: ReillersQuoteMcCarthy probably would have got them to the final, and while they mightn't have beaten KK they certainly would have put up a better fight, and wouldn't have gotten humiliated like they did.
I cant agree there Reillers. The whole thing had gone stale under McCarthy. The performance against Clare was the worst ive seen from this Waterford team - they didnt even try.
A lot of players that played under Davy at LIT and Waterford have great things to say about his preparation. Conor O Mahony put his personal success down to his time at LIT with Davy.
I agree that Waterford's performances were better last year than this year but then Big Dan was heroic last year scoring about 1-5 per game. This year he was like a traffic cone and Seamus Prendergast was on a par. Davy got as much from them as he could.
Then again, McCarthy is a corkman, so I suppose that would automatically make him the better manager Reillers. ;D
Agree with Reillers previous post. As has already been stated on this forum, ad nauseum, Waterford beat nobody to get to the AIF apart from a young Tipp team who were caught on the hop on the day. The Deise players let themselves down on the day, big Dan might as well have been flipping burgers under the Hogan stand.
They blamed Justin, but in the cold light of day, they would have been better looking at themselves. Their time is come and past and unforunately they won't come within peeing distance of an AI for the forseeable future.
Davy's on his bike, cause he can see the writings on the wall.
Quote from: Asal Mor on September 18, 2008, 10:34:17 AM
Posted by: Reillers
QuoteMcCarthy probably would have got them to the final, and while they mightn't have beaten KK they certainly would have put up a better fight, and wouldn't have gotten humiliated like they did.
I cant agree there Reillers. The whole thing had gone stale under McCarthy. The performance against Clare was the worst ive seen from this Waterford team - they didnt even try.
A lot of players that played under Davy at LIT and Waterford have great things to say about his preparation. Conor O Mahony put his personal success down to his time at LIT with Davy.
I agree that Waterford's performances were better last year than this year but then Big Dan was heroic last year scoring about 1-5 per game. This year he was like a traffic cone and Seamus Prendergast was on a par. Davy got as much from them as he could.
Then again, McCarthy is a corkman, so I suppose that would automatically make him the better manager Reillers. ;D
Justin was stabbed in the back by the players he made great, a manager that has done so much for hurling and made Waterford who they are, he changed everything the attitude, the perception of Waterford hurling, he found and helped developed the team that played some of the greatest games of the decade. It's got nothing to do with him being from Cork. Things might have gone a small bit stale but under Justin they had fight in the belly, they had real fire, passion, they were ready and willing to fight. Against Kilkenny I've never seen a team so naive. Davy should have prepared them. There were a lot of things he should have looked at in the Cork games that could have helped them, but it was like Davy didn't bother at all. Justin would have sat down at went threw every second of it, and he would have had them prepared. The only preperation that was done by Davy was "shinning the plate and handing it to Cody." They were awful, so unprepared, they were led in blind and KK were gone out the gate home and dry before half time, they were so bad that the KK players were able to play to almost perfection. Justin, stale or not, would have not had the team that unprepared.
Davy got on with the players more, they said that, he said that it was the best year they'd had in a long time, and that might be so, but having the craic and a pint or so with the lads, being one of the lads, doesn't bring much to the team.
Davy can't and will never be able to be mentioned in the same breath as Justin, he's brought more to hurling then Davy ever has or will if we look at how his management career is going, Justin is a great, great hurling man, he brought the team to an inch of the final on numerous occasions and did not deserved to be treated the way he was, it's got nothing to do with him being from Cork.
So Justin's from Cork. We get your drift.
justin might be going somewhere else soon ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Interesting...
Reillers out of interest what could Waterford have done? What was so naive? They were just out of their depth. You seem to not be giving Kilkenny credit again here and are very derogatory against Davy Fitz. McCarthy was and is a great hurling man but it wasn't Davy Fitz who ousted him.
You may also note that in AIF players with big names who any Waterford man would have expected big games of did not perform - notably Ken McGrath, Eoin Murphy and prrobaly to a lesser extent Eoin Kelly. Were these boys poor under McCarthy Waterford would have been beat out the gate.
No amount of tactics could have got that 15 close to KK that day. Davy has done well with university and looked to do decent at Waterford. You state about what he will do the rest of his career - how would you know what he will do??
You seem to have an awful chip on that shoulder there.
In fairness Reillers I agree with you about the great job Justin did in charge of Waterford. They have been the most exciting team of the past decade and my own favourite team these past few years. It was obvious though, that the spark had completely gone this year and I believe the players did what they had to do in getting rid of him. It could have been handled a lot better by the players and Big Dan was wrong to do what he did in the Clare game, but I understand that Justin never really developed much of a personal relationship with the players, so he can't have expected them to get too sentimental over his departure.
I don't know what you've got against Davy though Reillers. For them to beat a Tipp team that had been hugely impressive all year in the All Ireland semi was unimaginable in the aftermath of that Clare game a few months earlier. Davy put the spark back and Waterford maximised their potential to get to the final. Unfortunately they couldnt get near Kilkenny - physically, skill - wise or in terms of handling the pressure. The manager may deserve some flak for that but what exactly could he have done? Please explain what you would have done as Waterford m anager, because I've watched that match twice and I still have no answers. Yes, Waterford players panicked, and even Ken McGrath seemed to lose his nerve, but when you are engulfed by a tsunami that tends to happen.
Also Reillers, that remark that Waterford were so bad that they allowed Kilkenny to play to perfection, sounds like a cheap shot at an amazing Kilkenny performance. Almost sounds like your jealous of a county thats just won its 31st All Ireland. ;)
Quote from: Asal Mor on September 18, 2008, 11:23:39 PM
In fairness Reillers I agree with you about the great job Justin did in charge of Waterford. They have been the most exciting team of the past decade and my own favourite team these past few years. It was obvious though, that the spark had completely gone this year and I believe the players did what they had to do in getting rid of him. It could have been handled a lot better by the players and Big Dan was wrong to do what he did in the Clare game, but I understand that Justin never really developed much of a personal relationship with the players, so he can't have expected them to get too sentimental over his departure.
I don't know what you've got against Davy though Reillers. For them to beat a Tipp team that had been hugely impressive all year in the All Ireland semi was unimaginable in the aftermath of that Clare game a few months earlier. Davy put the spark back and Waterford maximised their potential to get to the final. Unfortunately they couldnt get near Kilkenny - physically, skill - wise or in terms of handling the pressure. The manager may deserve some flak for that but what exactly could he have done? Please explain what you would have done as Waterford m anager, because I've watched that match twice and I still have no answers. Yes, Waterford players panicked, and even Ken McGrath seemed to lose his nerve, but when you are engulfed by a tsunami that tends to happen.
Also Reillers, that remark that Waterford were so bad that they allowed Kilkenny to play to perfection, sounds like a cheap shot at an amazing Kilkenny performance. Almost sounds like your jealous of a county thats just won its 31st All Ireland. ;)
Davy Fitz, what annoys me about him. He's not a good manager, everything about him is complete hype. I don't like the way he manages, I don't like what he's bringing to the game in the way in which he manages..has the man ever heard of burn out.
I hate the fact that McCarthy built this team, he made this team and the brats of players stab him in the back after all he tried to do was develop the team. He took of the likes of Big Dan in the Clare match because he was having a shocking game, he threw a hissy fit, fastforward a small while and McCarthy's gone and in comes Davy Fitz. Now Justin built this team, he made it what it is today. Yes beating Tipp was great, but infairness to Tipp they're not and I don't think they'll be ready for another season or two, but Tipp didn't have the experience on the big day that they needed and Waterford took advantage of that and had a good day out, which is something youi'd expect from this Waterford team that gave us so many brilliant days out over the past 5 years or so.
Justin built this team, he changed everything about them, the players, the way they played, the attitude they have..etc. and all he gets in return is a shove out the door when the players, like Big Dan fail to preform which was more to do with form, as we saw in all his games this season, then the manager. Davy Fitz came in, he was handed a good team, with an easy route to the final and he couldn't have made a bigger hash of it.
Davy Fitz may have gotten on better with the players, but it's not a popularity contest, it's not who were better friends. Justin did his job as a manager. He built his team and prepared it. Now Davy Fitz I'm sure had great nights out with the lads, bestest best friends and all, but at the end of the day, he didn't prepare his team. He didn't do anything. They went in blind and that's know ones fault but his own. Davy Fitz, as a manager, is nothing more then a myth and a fairytale all wrapped into one. Justin gave everything to the Waterford cause, which being a Cork man most have taken a lot, he poured his own blood, sweat and tears into this team, they stab him in the back and Davy Fitz comes in, takes the reigns and drives them smack straight into a wall in a dark alley.
I've said it God knows how many times by now that Kilkenny were amazing against Waterford, every single time I've brought this topic up I've said it. I don't know how many more ways I've to spell it out, and at the moment I don't care about the bloody role of honour, at the moment KK are the best team in the country, I would care if it was unjust and if we deserved it but we didn't. I care more about rebuilding this team which will take a season, I care more about the fact that there are players in Cork that should be playing on the team but aren't, I care more about all of that crap about my team then I do about some bloody table. And I'm sick to death of every comment I make being brought back to the fact that I'm from Cork. Like with Justin, who at this stage I see more as a Waterford manager then a Cork man, but I can't comment on that without it being mentioned that of course I'd say it because he's from Cork. It's really beggining to wreck my head.
think you've over-stepped the mark a bit there reillers, he has won the fitzgibbon cup and other county titles at different grades as a manager. He mighn't be Brian Cody but he's not as bad as you say he is. I agree on some aspects of your post, as 23 points was a humiliation but even playing well they wouldn't have got to a single figure defeat. Not even brian cody training waterford would have won that game.
Ultimately only Justin could have won an all-ireland with this waterford team, he got them playing hurling no-one else could, made shanahan hurler of the year when he could barely get his game other years. The problem is this was last year or the year before. The 2008 waterford model with or without Justin wouldn;t have beaten the cats or got close, the dream ended when they lost to limerick last year. I thought the players were wrong to get rid of him, but as said above, none of them were friends and i doubt either party is that bothered about it anymore, because i'm pretty sure a man as astute as Mc Carthyknew damn well after the clare game, waterford weren't going to win any all-ireland this year. His legacy is more intact because he wasn't present a couple of weeks ago.
Quote from: INDIANA on September 19, 2008, 12:49:16 AM
think you've over-stepped the mark a bit there reillers, he has won the fitzgibbon cup and other county titles at different grades as a manager. He mighn't be Brian Cody but he's not as bad as you say he is. I agree on some aspects of your post, as 23 points was a humiliation but even playing well they wouldn't have got to a single figure defeat. Not even brian cody training waterford would have won that game.
Ultimately only Justin could have won an all-ireland with this waterford team, he got them playing hurling no-one else could, made shanahan hurler of the year when he could barely get his game other years. The problem is this was last year or the year before. The 2008 waterford model with or without Justin wouldn;t have beaten the cats or got close, the dream ended when they lost to limerick last year. I thought the players were wrong to get rid of him, but as said above, none of them were friends and i doubt either party is that bothered about it anymore, because i'm pretty sure a man as astute as Mc Carthyknew damn well after the clare game, waterford weren't going to win any all-ireland this year. His legacy is more intact because he wasn't present a couple of weeks ago.
Like you Indiana I have a certain degree of sympathy regarding what Reillers is saying but Fitzy isn't ALL hype - there's more to him than hype and if there is a bit of hype he has earned it - Waterford were NEVER going to win the AI this year, with or without Mc Carthy - with or without Fitzy - KK are just too far ahead of Waterford -
Yes, Mc Carthy was shafted by a pack of disloyal, almost spoilt players who didn't know a good manager when they had one - yes, Mc Carthy may have had his faults but who is perfect ?