According to Heaney in the Irish News, the sports council is going to administer the grants apparently, press releases expected today. Maybe someone could post the article.
Is this true? I haven't seen the Irish News. Anything in any other paper?
From today's Irish Times:
Farrell indicates sides close to deal
Gavin Cummiskey
It was hoped, by all parties, the issue of player grants would be sorted before the GAA roadshow departs for New York this morning. The Gaelic Players Association (GPA) chief executive Dessie Farrell confirmed last night no agreement had been reached but an announcement is expected later today.
The three negotiating groups - the GPA, the GAA and the Government - have met on several occasions this week without putting the issue to bed before today's unofficial deadline. The All Star trip returns next Wednesday morning.
"We are just trying to finalise certain stuff," said Farrell. "That's what we are working towards but it depends how quickly we can get it all finalised and finished."
While the threat of a player strike remains, Farrell's comments indicate a compromise agreement is forthcoming.
It became apparent in recent weeks the initial €5 million put aside by former Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism John O'Donoghue may no longer be available. His successor, Séamus Brennan, confirmed recently the money was not included in the 2008 Book of Estimates.
However, he said: "I can always move other projects around if I had to do that. I'm not saying I couldn't do it, but there's no specific line in the Budget for it just now. It doesn't mean we can't do something."
The dénouement of this mini-sage will be interesting in it's detail. How much money is actually available? Are all teams on the same pay scale?
As I said, I have no real problem with the GPA getting their players recognised as elite athletes, I think we all feel they are that, but my problem was with the GAA getting involved in the nuts and bolts. I hope they've avoided that, or at least got clear delineation between GAA money and 'Players' money.
Exactly what is likely to happen - officially or otherwise.
And I'll now unashamedly play what's known as the hospital card in other debates - how many hurleys can you buy for €5M?
Quotehow many hurleys can you buy for €5M?
Not enough to keep an Offaly Junior team equipped for a year. :D
On a serious note Hardy, you may well be right. The Government may withhold X million it was thinking of allocating to the GAA, and instead divert it to the players, however the key thing for me is that the funds are clearly marked and ringfenced according to their real purpose.
If a scenario such as GAA - €50million (was to be €55 million); Player Grants - €5 million is the end-game, and the funds are clearly identified as such, then at least the GAA have a solid foundation for rejecting any future GPA claims should the Grant disappear from the Government, or should the amount go down.
The GAA can still say, emphatically, 'Sorry lads, but the Government monies earmarked for ye have nothing to do with us, and we've never said we will pay them from our money'.
If however the scenario is GAA - €55 million, of which a certain amount is for players grants, it would be very hard to build the same case.
Sad day in my book.
In the fullness of time this will be remembered as one of the biggest mistakes in the GAA's history.
Quoten the fullness of time this will be remembered as one of the biggest mistakes in the GAA's history.
If it's not worded extrememly clearly, with loads of safeguards built in, then I agree with you believebelieve
No matter what way it is worded, what spin is put on it, this is players getting money for playing the GAA - over and above legitimate expenses. In ten years just imagine what the young inter county player who is in his first year this year will be looking for. Man being man he will want more and we will give it to him.
This all seems to have been sorted out rather easily! It seems strange to me that the GPA played their trump card so quickly in this situation - it is clear that they have been badly managed/advised! Strike action is always the last resort - had they reached the last resort???I believe this situation could have sorted out with much less fuss and certainly much better in terms of PR for the GPA!
Quote from: BennyHarp on November 29, 2007, 10:33:46 AM
This all seems to have been sorted out rather easily! It seems strange to me that the GPA played their trump card so quickly in this situation - it is clear that they have been badly managed/advised! Strike action is always the last resort - had they reached the last resort???I believe this situation could have sorted out with much less fuss and certainly much better in terms of PR for the GPA!
In fairness their has been a couple of years (correct me if I'm wrong) foot dragging on the entire life of the grant issue
Sad day for the GAA.
Professionalism is only around the corner now and it wont be long before they start calling the league the premiership.
Quote from: bennydorano on November 29, 2007, 09:17:59 AM
According to Heaney in the Irish News, the sports council is going to administer the grants apparently, press releases expected today. Maybe someone could post the article.
Here is the article in its entirety. I may have added a bit myself.
GPA strike over grant issue to be averted
Gaelic Games
By Paddy Heaney
A strike by all inter-county players should to be averted today when a statement from Croke Park confirms that the controversy surrounding the grants scheme has been resolved.
Sources from the GAA and the GPA have both indicated that they are in the process of finalising an agreement.
Earlier this month the GPA voted overwhelmingly in favour of a player walk-out from January 1 unless a solution was found to the grants scheme.
Although the GPA had secured the necessary funding from the Irish government, a stand-off developed with regard to how the grants should be distributed to almost 2,000 inter-county players.
The GPA's leadership grew increasingly frustrated with delays affecting the process. After consulting the membership and issuing ballot papers, they decided to strike.
That decision in favour of striking was announced on Friday November 9.
Since then, negotiations involving the GPA, the GAA, the Irish Government and the Irish Sports Council have taken place.
It's understood that the Irish Sports Council, a national body, will take responsibility for distributing the grants and this will ensure that players in Northern Ireland also receive grants.
Source in both the GPA and the GAA have expressed their satisfaction with the agreement that has been brokered. A source close to the GPA said "We only ever wanted our slice of the pie. We [the GPA] are the GAA. There would be no 80,000 crowds at Croke Park without us. This is merely a stepping stone man. I tell you, merely a stepping stone."
An official statement from the GAA is expected to be released today.
I'd welcome this providing it meets a few conditions:
- The money is coming from govt coffers, and not from funds already marked for GAA
- Distribution of the money will not be the responsibility of the GAA. It will come from an independent body such as the Sports Council
- Should the govt decide to discontinue the scheme or reduce the funding, it is understood by all parties that the GAA is under no obligation to step in and make up any shortfall.
- The GPA declares itself satisfied and have no further monetary 'demands'.
Just read the proposals and there is some strange stuff in them - i think it could cause uproar in the weaker counties.
Oh and despite all the talk that the GAa will not administer the funds it looks like they will. Sports coucil to gaa to county committee to players seems to be the route.
Agreement between the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Irish Sports Council, GAA and GPA to recognise the contribution of Senior Inter-County Players and additional costs associated with enhancing team performance.
Rationale
Our Senior Inter-County players provide the window through which our National Games are viewed nationally and internationally. It is recognised that the successful teams prepare and train to the highest international standards for team sports and that the current scheme of tax relief for professional sports people cannot be applied to Gaelic players because of their amateur status. The Minister therefore, via the Irish Sports Council, in consultation with the GAA and the GPA, intends to introduce schemes to recognise the outstanding contribution of Gaelic Inter-County players to our indigenous sport, to meet additional costs associated with elite team performance and to encourage aspiring teams and players to reach the highest levels of sporting endeavour. These schemes will be based specifically on Championship participation, the GAA's blue riband competitions, commencing at the end of the National Leagues, and will operate as follows:
Annual Team Performance Scheme
The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous Sports of Hurling and Gaelic football
The Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance-based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation and skill of the teams and individuals not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme. The GAA, the GPA and the Irish Sports Council will agree a set of standards and performance based criteria for counties and their senior team squads eliminated in the first two rounds of the All-Ireland Football Qualifiers, and those participating in the Tommy Murphy Cup, the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups. Recognising that the achievement of excellence necessitates increased sacrifice and effort by counties and individuals, this scheme will assist them in achieving/maintaining the required standards. Support will not be made available to individuals or squads that fail to meet minimum standards.
Funding
An amount of €3.5m will be provided in 2008 to fund these schemes.
Criteria for participation in these Schemes
County committees, team management and players representatives in participating counties will develop improvement plans with measurable goals and objectives, agreed with the ISC, and consistent with national GAA coaching and games development policy. The supports will be based on the following criteria:
County Committee Responsibilities
• Establish and agree key performance indicators with team management. This will involve identifying squad targets and objectives, formulating an appropriate training regime/plan, establishing a code of conduct to which all parties give agreement and the provision of comprehensive information and advice on the anti-doping code. These indicators, objectives and requirements will be incorporated in the proposed Charter for inter county teams and County Committees.
• Provision, as appropriate, of qualified personnel to enhance player/team development. This to include advice and support in all aspects of team and individual fitness, nutrition, health and well-being associated with playing the games.
• A system to take account of players joining or departing from the county squad will be agreed.
• Ensure the presence of certified medical personnel at all inter-county games.
Player Responsibilities
• Attend at least 80% of all training sessions/matches. This commitment will also apply to injured/rehab personnel except where excused.
• Demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing.
• Keep updated training log/diary.
• Strict adherence to anti-doping code.
• Players who violate the code will not receive awards
• Injured players will be expected to meet a set of agreed minimum requirements to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in the rehabilitation process in order to receive an award.
• Players will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis. In co-operation with the Local Sports Partnerships players will visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in their sports.
• Players will involve themselves in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports as a healthy activity for all ages.
• Any Inter County Squad or Player may decline the amount.
Conditions
1. Funding for the above schemes will be provided annually through the Irish Sports Council to the GAA and the criteria and arrangements for their disbursement will be agreed by the GAA, the GPA and the ISC.
2. These schemes will be additional to, and will not negatively impact on, existing funding or any future funding, provided by the Government to the GAA through the ISC.
3. All parties recognise the amateur status of the GAA and nothing in this agreement will undermine that amateur status.
4. The schemes will be administered by a National Committee with player/administrative representatives of the GAA and GPA. Committees to administer the schemes at county level will also be established.
5. Dispute resolution will be carried out by the National Committee whose decisions will be final.
6. This agreement applies to senior inter-county football and hurling panels only. Funding will be based on panels to a maximum of 30 players.
7. Any tax liability that might arise from these schemes is the responsibility of the individual player.
8. Player welfare is a separate issue for which the GAA takes full responsibility.
9. The schemes will be subject to a tri-annual independent review to be carried out under the aegis of the ISC.
Quote from: bennydorano on November 29, 2007, 12:40:45 PM7. Any tax liability that might arise from these schemes is the responsibility of the individual player.
Interesting, very interesting, how will the UK revenue treat this little 'reimbursement of unvouched expenses'? I reckon they'll pull a deal with the southern revenue to just ignore it for a while, I don't think Ivan McGimpsey (or substitute other Ulster Scotch name as appropriate) in the Belfast revenue office will be able to turn such a blind eye.
Rois, Joe, other accountants up there, any thoughts?
One of the greatestr climbdowns of all time ! ;D ;D ;D
ANyone else disappointed? I certainly am. I thought it was our big chance to sink the bastards. Just a postponement until the next issue which is round the corner - TV money. Meanwhile, Cork Taliban are refusing to play still. Good.
QuoteANyone else disappointed
I certainly am. I cannot believe that the GAA have allowed themselves to get involved in the actual payment of the grants and at the same time have explicitly recognised the GPA. This has thrown Dessie, Donal Og and the gang a lifeline and an opportunity to continue to bully and threaten.
As for the Cork footballers - I think you will find Fran Murphy, Bob Honohan are made of sterner stuff and will not roll over. A lot of GAA people in Cork would not mind if the footballers went on a permanent strike - would solve a lot of problems over club fixtures!!!
Quote from: bennydorano on November 29, 2007, 12:40:45 PM
The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
A very bad day for the GAA. What happens now to the other 22 football teams who put the same amount of effort/preparaton for the championship this agreement stinks of elitism.
This is the start of the slide into professionalism. IMO it would not have happened under Peter Quinns reign.
QuoteAnnual Team Performance Scheme
The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
So much for helping the smaller teams. The Rich get richer .
Quote from: Seany on November 29, 2007, 01:04:57 PM
ANyone else disappointed? I certainly am. I thought it was our big chance to sink the bastards. Just a postponement until the next issue which is round the corner - TV money. Meanwhile, Cork Taliban are refusing to play still. Good.
Yeah but that strike started on the 3rd Sunday in September.No one cared then and no cares now
Quote from: Bensars on November 29, 2007, 01:36:54 PM
This is the start of the slide into professionalism. IMO it would not have happened under Peter Quinns reign.
QuoteAnnual Team Performance Scheme
The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
So much for helping the smaller teams. The Rich get richer .
I think they get a fixed fee while the teams that give up more time by being the championship longer get more.
i think when you cut through the bullshit it's the end of the association as we know it.
-the GPA have now been offically recognised
-elitism is now official
-cut of TV revenue is the next debate.
i think i'll stick to the club scene. at least then i don't have to listen to the likes of donal og-mc geeney and farrell prattle on about professional demands when a lot of them get - sponsored cars-free holidays- free meals-expenses-all the gear they need-fully paid scholarships etc. Jesus it's a hard life.
the amateur ethos of the gaa is officially dead following todays announcement.take a bow dessie and his cohorts,your names will be etched in gaa history forever
Very disappointed in some aspects as well. Seems like a very rushed job to me. A lot of ambiguities. ??? ???
It seems like it only applies to teams who reach 3rd rd qualifiers, and increases from there. I think this is a disgrace and is pure elitism :'(
QuoteThe Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
But then it says the weaker counties will get 'support' to raise their performance. What form will this support take?
QuoteAnnual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous Sports of Hurling and Gaelic football
The Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance-based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation and skill of the teams and individuals not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme. The GAA, the GPA and the Irish Sports Council will agree a set of standards and performance based criteria for counties and their senior team squads eliminated in the first two rounds of the All-Ireland Football Qualifiers, and those participating in the Tommy Murphy Cup, the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups. Recognising that the achievement of excellence necessitates increased sacrifice and effort by counties and individuals, this scheme will assist them in achieving/maintaining the required standards. Support will not be made available to individuals or squads that fail to meet minimum standards.
QuoteA system to take account of players joining or departing from the county squad will be agreed.
Should this system not have been agreed before all this was announed??
QuoteInjured players will be expected to meet a set of agreed minimum requirements to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in the rehabilitation process in order to receive an award.
. Good. At least an injured player can still receive the grant.
QuotePlayers will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis. In co-operation with the Local Sports Partnerships players will visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in their sports.
This is actually a very good idea if enforced. Nothing will popularise it among the kids more than seeing their heroes in the flesh.
QuoteThese schemes will be additional to, and will not negatively impact on, existing funding or any future funding, provided by the Government to the GAA through the ISC.
Very important point. Though how would you prove this is/isn't occuring is another story...
QuoteAll parties recognise the amateur status of the GAA and nothing in this agreement will undermine that amateur status.
Well, the statement is there but going by my first point, I can't see how they can stand over it...
QuoteThe schemes will be subject to a tri-annual independent review to be carried out under the aegis of the ISC.
Here for a minimum of 3 years. Hopefully they'll review my first point sooner than that though.
This document is a disaster!
I thought one of the aims of the GAA was to lessen the committment, both in terms of time and physically, of the inter county player. Yet this document sees the county player having to do more to get the grant - there is no element of choice there anymore - player works 40plus hours a week, trains possible 8 hours a week and now has to coach as well. Im not saying that players should not give back to the clubs but it should be a personal choice - not a bribe.
I bet there are a hell of a lot of players wishing they were from Cork - seeded in the Munster football championship and a clear ride into the last 12. And another thing what about the poor so and so who trains from October to Feb then gets dropped - he gets nothing.
And as I said from day one the GAA wil be signing the cheques - and to think there were people who considered this issue not important enough to open up to the grassroots for their opinion.
Next we will have pay per view tv and then we will have wholesale transfers of players to other counties to increase their income or more worryingly brown envelopes to those players in order to stop them transferring.
End of the GAA as we know it!!!!!
Quote from: Gnevin on November 29, 2007, 01:44:57 PM
I think they get a fixed fee while the teams that give up more time by being the championship longer get more.
[/quote]
And how do you know that - has dessie told you. There is no concrete infomation concerning this yet so don't try and muddy the waters - and by the way those who reach the tommy murphy cup final give up as much and in some cases more time than the counties who get to the last 12, quarters or semis.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 29, 2007, 01:47:34 PM
i think when you cut through the bullshit it's the end of the association as we know it.
-the GPA have now been offically recognised
-elitism is now official
-cut of TV revenue is the next debate.
i think i'll stick to the club scene. at least then i don't have to listen to the likes of donal og-mc geeney and farrell prattle on about professional demands when a lot of them get - sponsored cars-free holidays- free meals-expenses-all the gear they need-fully paid scholarships etc. Jesus it's a hard life.
Indiana, agree with every word you said
Quote from: Bensars on November 29, 2007, 01:51:30 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 29, 2007, 01:47:34 PM
i think when you cut through the bullshit it's the end of the association as we know it.
-the GPA have now been offically recognised
-elitism is now official
-cut of TV revenue is the next debate.
i think i'll stick to the club scene. at least then i don't have to listen to the likes of donal og-mc geeney and farrell prattle on about professional demands when a lot of them get - sponsored cars-free holidays- free meals-expenses-all the gear they need-fully paid scholarships etc. Jesus it's a hard life.
Indiana, agree with every word you said
Indiana can I have your hill ticket since you wont be needing it?
Gnevin, Can i ask you why you think teams below the top 12 get a fixed fee and the rest get more because of their time in the competition? did u just make this up?
Quote from: believebelive on November 29, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
Gnevin, Can i ask you why you think teams below the top 12 get a fixed fee and the rest get more because of their time in the competition? did u just make this up?
That was the original proposal was it not?
If you were an outsider you would be forgiven for thinking the prposed strike was the main issue.
This is Bullshit of the highest order.
If the numbers of those who disagree with this are willing to put their money were their mouth is then A BOYCOTT WOULD WORK.
We would see how the Government the GAA and the GPA respnd when there isn't 100s of thousands of people traveling the length and breadth of the country to watch inter-county sports.
This could really be the year of the club.
Quote from: Gnevin on November 29, 2007, 02:04:41 PM
Quote from: believebelive on November 29, 2007, 02:03:46 PM
Gnevin, Can i ask you why you think teams below the top 12 get a fixed fee and the rest get more because of their time in the competition? did u just make this up?
That was the original proposal was it not?
No - that was never the original proposal - the original proposal was a four tiered system ranging from 1650 to 2800 depending on how far you got - it was elitist too.
We don't know how elitist this new one will be yet as the figures are not out yet but I have a feeling that it will be a hell of a lot worse than even the first one.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 29, 2007, 01:47:34 PM
-cut of TV revenue is the next debate.
If the GAA ever agree to pay-per-view I will be 100% behind the players getting their share of the money. Pay-per-view is a step to far.
As believebelieve has alluded to, I can't imagine too many of the players in the GPA (apart from the elite) will be too happy.
1) The money is €3.5 million.
2) Only the top 12 teams in each code are guaranteed it.
3) 'Performance Criteria' for the other 'Improvement Grants' are to be set by County Committees and team management.
4) Players have to attend 80% of sessions and games, accede to fitness tests, which they must show improvement in and commit to training teams in their 'spare time'. Sounds like the GAA have just got themselve a thousand unpaid coaches.
The GAA seem to be saddled with dispersal of the monies, albeit they seem to be ringfenced as totally seperate funding. The GAA also have to supply trained dieticians, physios, fitness gurus etc, which most county teams already have. They also have to have medical personnel at all IC games, which is more or less the norm anyway.
On first glance, it appears that the only part I have a real problem with is the GAA being responsible for moving the money around, but at least it is quite clear that it is independant of any other money the Gov or ISC pays to the GAA.
I think, all things being equal, the GAA did as well as they could hope out of this, given that they didn't seem to have the appetite to take the GPA on and stare down their threat of strike. Which is a pity in many ways.
No matter what spin Dessie puts on it though, I can't see any mad celebrations in at least 40 county panels.
I just want to add my voice as one of the sorely disappointed. This has been a craven rollover by the GAA and pay for play is now established. From this moment on, the only debate is about how much.
Within a week, the GAA has not only let the GPA off the ropes, when the knockout punch could have been delivered by a failed strike, but consolidated their position, endorsed their money-grabbing mé-féinism and changed the character of tha GAA forever. Thanks a million Nicky.
Quote from: believebelive on November 29, 2007, 01:50:29 PM
... this document sees the county player having to do more to get the grant - there is no element of choice there anymore
There is still one element of choice open (from the Agreement): "Any Inter County Squad or Player may decline the amount. "
Quote from: bennydorano on November 29, 2007, 12:40:45 PM
Annual Team Performance Scheme
The Annual Team Performance Scheme will be based on the performance of teams during the championships and will apply to the 12 Gaelic football teams qualifying for the third round of the All-Ireland Qualifier series or reaching a Provincial Final, and the 12 hurling teams participating in the McCarthy Cup. The level of award available to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships.
Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous Sports of Hurling and Gaelic football
The Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance-based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation and skill of the teams and individuals not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme. The GAA, the GPA and the Irish Sports Council will agree a set of standards and performance based criteria for counties and their senior team squads eliminated in the first two rounds of the All-Ireland Football Qualifiers, and those participating in the Tommy Murphy Cup, the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups. Recognising that the achievement of excellence necessitates increased sacrifice and effort by counties and individuals, this scheme will assist them in achieving/maintaining the required standards. Support will not be made available to individuals or squads that fail to meet minimum standards.
Funding
An amount of €3.5m will be provided in 2008 to fund these schemes.
Criteria for participation in these Schemes
County committees, team management and players representatives in participating counties will develop improvement plans with measurable goals and objectives, agreed with the ISC, and consistent with national GAA coaching and games development policy. The supports will be based on the following criteria:
County Committee Responsibilities
• Establish and agree key performance indicators with team management. This will involve identifying squad targets and objectives, formulating an appropriate training regime/plan, establishing a code of conduct to which all parties give agreement and the provision of comprehensive information and advice on the anti-doping code. These indicators, objectives and requirements will be incorporated in the proposed Charter for inter county teams and County Committees.
• Provision, as appropriate, of qualified personnel to enhance player/team development. This to include advice and support in all aspects of team and individual fitness, nutrition, health and well-being associated with playing the games.
• A system to take account of players joining or departing from the county squad will be agreed.
• Ensure the presence of certified medical personnel at all inter-county games.
Player Responsibilities
• Attend at least 80% of all training sessions/matches. This commitment will also apply to injured/rehab personnel except where excused.
• Demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing.
• Keep updated training log/diary.
• Strict adherence to anti-doping code.
• Players who violate the code will not receive awards
• Injured players will be expected to meet a set of agreed minimum requirements to demonstrate that they are participating satisfactorily in the rehabilitation process in order to receive an award.
• Players will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis. In co-operation with the Local Sports Partnerships players will visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in their sports.
• Players will involve themselves in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports as a healthy activity for all ages. • Any Inter County Squad or Player may decline the amount.
Conditions
1. Funding for the above schemes will be provided annually through the Irish Sports Council to the GAA and the criteria and arrangements for their disbursement will be agreed by the GAA, the GPA and the ISC.
2. These schemes will be additional to, and will not negatively impact on, existing funding or any future funding, provided by the Government to the GAA through the ISC.
3. All parties recognise the amateur status of the GAA and nothing in this agreement will undermine that amateur status.
4. The schemes will be administered by a National Committee with player/administrative representatives of the GAA and GPA. Committees to administer the schemes at county level will also be established.
5. Dispute resolution will be carried out by the National Committee whose decisions will be final.
6. This agreement applies to senior inter-county football and hurling panels only. Funding will be based on panels to a maximum of 30 players.
7. Any tax liability that might arise from these schemes is the responsibility of the individual player.
8. Player welfare is a separate issue for which the GAA takes full responsibility.
9. The schemes will be subject to a tri-annual independent review to be carried out under the aegis of the ISC.
First point means that players who are in teams that get further in the championship etc and therefore have incurred higher costs are targetted seperately to the other counties.
Second point shows that all other counties etc will also get funding.
The 3.5m Euro is to cover both schemes....REPEAT BOTH SCHEMES....
Third point highlighted to me says that no-longer will counties be able to get away with treating one sport as a second class citizen anymore and have to do far more to promote hurling in particular...
Point 4 highlighted I hope/assume that this will incorporate some form of mechanism with regards to appealing exessively against suspensions etc that players/counties have to agree to..
It ensures that proper medical facilities are available, that players don't take drugs and suffer if they do, gets players more invovled in promoting the sport especially for children..
The funding is not paid by the GAA, it is ringfenced as sperate from other GAA income and THERE IS IN WRITING THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE AMATEUR STATUS....
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on November 29, 2007, 03:16:07 PM
THERE IS IN WRITING THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE AMATEUR STATUS....
if you get paid mor than just expenses how can yo call yourself an amateur ???
nickey brennan/dessie farrell et al are all getting stick on her and rightly so. what about the f**king players who voted for a strike and how do the players from the shit teams in certain codes feel now
sham on you all for selling the association down the river for a few euro
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on November 29, 2007, 03:16:07 PM
First point means that players who are in teams that get further in the championship etc and therefore have incurred higher costs are targetted seperately to the other counties.
But that sort of shite sickens my hole! this aid only comes into play after the league - it does not take into consdieration the efforts from october to may -
The Tommy Murphy Cup ended on the 4th of august last year - the fist 1/4 finals took place a week before - galway were out at the last 12 in the middle of July - so how in the name of blue jesus can this be for teams who get further in the championship and incurred higher costs - or are u saying that cos the tommy murphy cup is not important u just dont count that
It'll be interesting to see how much of this grant is 'pissed up against a wall', spent on a nice wee holiday with the lads, or buys the new alloys for the car.
We're all equal - problem is some are more equal than others.
Quote from: altovito on November 29, 2007, 03:26:03 PM
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on November 29, 2007, 03:16:07 PM
THERE IS IN WRITING THE ACCEPTANCE OF THE AMATEUR STATUS....
if you get paid mor than just expenses how can yo call yourself an amateur ???
nickey brennan/dessie farrell et al are all getting stick on her and rightly so. what about the f**king players who voted for a strike and how do the players from the shit teams in certain codes feel now
sham on you all for selling the association down the river for a few euro
Altovito - are you saying that for every penny the player spends he gets reimburesment??? Are you telling me that a payment of 50cents per mile covers the costs of mileage??? Are you telling me that all medicines, supplements, food etc required are paid for??? Are you telling me that babysitting charges etc are paid for??? or not being able to go on family holidays etc or changing weddings etc......
Believebelieve - Why don't you actually wait till you see the detail rather than just complaining about it.....The GPA/GAA put forward a proposal last year as to how the money would be distributed - and here is a summary - I will find the detailed listing when I can......
The GPA-GAA document provides €2,800 for each squad player in the All-Ireland senior football and hurling finals, right down to €1,650 for Tommy Murphy Cup first round losers. Said a GPA-GAA statement: "It has been indicated that Government funding would be made available in the event that the GPA and GAA could agree terms on the utilisation and distribution of any funding provided. The proposal is under consideration."
The document reveals that the proposed scheme will be administered by a national committee which will consist of the Player Welfare Manager and the players' representative at Central Council, ie Farrell.
According to the GPA-GAA proposal, funding would be distributed in a number of ways:
75% to cover players out-of-pocket expenses arising from their participation on intercounty senior football and hurling panels.
A dual player will only be eligible for expenses in respect of his participation with either the senior hurling of senior football panel. 25% for the National Player Welfare programmes which will cover player insurance, scholarship, education/tuition/ distance-learning and such other programmes as may be considered appropriate. The document contained a detailed breakdown of out-of-pocket expenses highlighting the special dietary needs of players, their training gear, motor expenses, communications and gym equipment.
The agreement would apply only for so long as government funding is made available for player welfare and will cease when and if government funding ceases. In this event there will be no responsibility on the GAA to continue funding and no such request will be made to it by the GPA. The initial proposal contained only a small difference in payments from All-Ireland winners to Tommy Murphy first round losers....
25% didn't even go to the players but rather for a welfare programme...
AND THE MONEY WOULDN'T BE COMING FROM THE GAA IF HTE GOVT FUNDING CEASED...
This could do more harm than good to the GPA. If there are 24 county panels eligible for the 'big' grant, and 40 not eligible, then almost 2/3rd of their membership have been sold down the river.
Also the terms of the deal seem to be onerous for the players, when the GPA is supposed to be in favour of lessening the burden on them.
If the Mayo hurlers, to use your example, are to be measured in fitness terms, have to do coaching voluntarily and attend all these sessions all for a tiny amount of taxable (possibly) money, what good is it to them?
Of course in 5 years when the grant goes up to €15,000, it'll be a bit more for them.
So the membership vote for a strike on the behest of the GPA leadership yet they dont have a vote to agree the deal laid down. ???
It seem that the GPA membership are happy to be treated like the pawns that they are for the sake of a few bob. They should all be ashamed of themselves. baaaaaaaaaaa
Dubsforum- some of us would point to the rather obvious points you miss:
- free scholarships
- sponsored cars
- free gear
-free holidays
- free meals
-paid accomodation in some cases
- paid medical expenses
-paid expenses
as regards family events. My club are in the leinster club final in a few weeks -the players on that panel have given up a variety of family events to be at training -matches etc over the year. the point being it was a choice. They ain't getting any grants. All of the above apply to the top ranked counties including your own where 99% of everything they need to play at inter county level is paid for. It really amazes me how inter county players claim they get nothing. Surely its the weaker counties where they get screwed over.
Rather than try to redress the balance for the weaker counties- this deal appears to screw them out of it even more that's what i can't get over.
I haven't read all the comments on the thread but I agree with those saying it's a sad day for the GAA.
For me, it's the final nail in the coffin as far as the intercounty scene is concerned.
I think I'll just stick to club football from now on.
Sad day alright - have the GAA issued a statement yet ? That will be interesting alright !!!!! Weasel words ( more weasel words rather ! ) !! >:( ??? :'(
The G.A.A. has welcomed the Government's confirmation that they will make annual awards available for senior intercounty players in recognition of the role of Gaelic Games in the social, economic and cultural life of the nation and on the basis that because of their amateur status they cannot avail of tax relief applicable to professional sports people.
· The new schemes will be open to players participating in the Senior Hurling and Football Intercounty Championships, including the Tommy Murphy Cup and the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard competitions. €3.5 million is being made available in 2008 and the level of award to teams will be calculated on a sliding scale increasing with continuing involvement in the Championships. This is consistent with the G.A.A. and G.P.A. joint submission made with the approval of Central Council earlier this year.
· Payment of these awards is contingent on the G.A.A. and the G.P.A. agreeing standards and criteria with the Irish Sports Council. It will also be subject to County Committees, team management and players representatives developing plans and measurable goals and objectives which are agreed by the Irish Sports Council and consistent with GAA policy.
· The funding for the proposed awards will be made available by the Irish Sports Council through Croke Park to County Boards on a squad basis of 30.
· The revised proposal is acceptable to the G.A.A. in principle on the basis that players award funding is being paid through the Irish Sports Council and that the funding will be additional to any current or future funding, including capital and games development funding, provided by the Government to the G.A.A.
· The Irish Sports Council has also accepted responsibility for monitoring of the schemes and will oversee a tri-annual review in that context.
· Mr. Nickey Brennan, President of the G.A.A., stated that "I am pleased that the issue of recognition for G.A.A. players has been addressed". He said that from a G.A.A. perspective "the Association's core concerns had been addressed - the protection of the Amateur Status, the payment of funds from the exchequer clearly defined as sports awards and the commitment that G.A.A funding generally would not be negatively
impacted on in any way". He said that "the proposal will however require the ratification and approval of Central Council and it will be placed on the agenda for its December meeting".
· Mr. Brennan paid tribute to the Minister for Arts, Sports & Tourism, Mr. Séamus Brennan, and his officials, to the Irish Sports Council and to all involved in the recent discussions
Just a few comments on the conditions
Quote• Demonstrate improvement through regular fitness testing
How exactly is this going to work? You have to run the 100m faster everytime your tested? Will we end up with a association of Asafa Powells?
Quote6. This agreement applies to senior inter-county football and hurling panels only. Funding will be based on panels to a maximum of 30 players
What about counties who operate with panels of more than 30 players throughout a year? Where does this square with the scheme to be worked out for players leaving and joining panels?
Quote• Players will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis.
Having to do the coaching to get money sort of makes a sham of the phase "voluntary".
I'd agree with most of the comments above. Quite a depressing document. The wording used screams of professionalism and elitism.
QuoteAnnual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence in the Indigenous Sports of Hurling and Gaelic football
The Annual Support Scheme for the Development of Excellence will be based on the achievement of standards and performance-based criteria designed to raise/maintain the levels of preparation and skill of the teams and individuals not qualifying for the Team Performance Scheme. The GAA, the GPA and the Irish Sports Council will agree a set of standards and performance based criteria for counties and their senior team squads eliminated in the first two rounds of the All-Ireland Football Qualifiers, and those participating in the Tommy Murphy Cup, the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard Cups. Recognising that the achievement of excellence necessitates increased sacrifice and effort by counties and individuals, this scheme will assist them in achieving/maintaining the required standards. Support will not be made available to individuals or squads that fail to meet minimum standards.
So you could end up winning the league with your county but then mess up in the chamionship and you get knocked out. Later you are chosen as the 'token' All-Star for being outstanding in the league ...... but you could end up with no grant
What odds that the next public utterings from Larry, Moe and Curly (woops, sorry - McGeeney, the weasel from Cork and Farrell) will include the word "inflation" ?
Also, on 6 1 news this evening Luke Dempsey was interviewed and gave his opinions on it (grinning cheek to cheek with "its a great day for the GAA" line) and then answered the question "what next for the GPA" with the answer - " i am sure the next step for them will be to look for a representative on the central council" ........... some so called expert. I wonder do RTE have some performance based criteria for there so called experts ? If so then you can wave your expenses good bye for this year Luke. More worryingly is the effect of gombeens like this being given airtime will have on the opinion of the uninformed Joe Soaps watching on.
Jayses Boys this thread is certainly in first place for the "Negativity/Gloom/Doom /The GAA is finished" Award of the year.
The GAA survived the abolition of Rule 27; Rule 21 and the amending of Rule 42 but it seems it is now finished never to rise again.
Ah well it was nice while it lasted -all 123 years of the poor little fragile organisation.
F F S lads - wise up a little.
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2007, 08:01:25 PM
Jayses Boys this thread is certainly in first place for the "Negativity/Gloom/Doom /The GAA is finished" Award of the year.
The GAA survived the abolition of Rule 27; Rule 21 and the amending of Rule 42 but it seems it is now finished never to rise again.
Ah well it was nice while it lasted -all 123 years of the poor little fragile organisation.
F F S lads - wise up a little.
There'll certainly be some craic when it comes to the handing out of the expenses - imagine Derry, Eoin Bradley doesn't qualify as he wasn barely in the panel all year, out walks Paddy too, and so on, replicated country wide.
More importantly, Rossfan what's the story with the 'double All Ireland champions'? I could go and check, but really can't be bothered.
If you go back to the gaaboard home page very quickly and look at the last post in the GAA Discussion section you may well see:
Strike Averted by saffron sam2.
Only if you're very, very quick though.
Quote from: Bogball XV on November 29, 2007, 08:25:07 PM
[.
More importantly, Rossfan what's the story with the 'double All Ireland champions'?
All Ireland U21 Hurling ( "B") - bet Kerry in the Final -as we have a habit of doing in both codes this century ;)
And of course the All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship (Tier 3 Rackard Cup :-[)
The Manning is a U16 Football League in these parts while the Hastings is a U21 Football League also in these parts.
I hope the top table at the County Board's annual do doesnt collapse under all that silver. :)
It's gone ;)
That was for SS2, but I was really slow I see!!
Quote from: Rossfan on November 29, 2007, 08:33:28 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on November 29, 2007, 08:25:07 PM
[.
More importantly, Rossfan what's the story with the 'double All Ireland champions'?
All Ireland U21 Hurling ( "B") - bet Kerry in the Final -as we have a habit of doing in both codes this century ;)
And of course the All Ireland Senior Hurling Championship (Tier 3 Rackard Cup :-[)
The Manning is a U16 Football League in these parts while the Hastings is a U21 Football League also in these parts.
I hope the top table at the County Board's annual do doesnt collapse under all that silver. :)
No, but the players tables might, they'll have 30 pieces of silver each :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 29, 2007, 09:54:48 AM
The dénouement of this mini-sage will be interesting in it's detail. How much money is actually available? Are all teams on the same pay scale?
As I said, I have no real problem with the GPA getting their players recognised as elite athletes, I think we all feel they are that, but my problem was with the GAA getting involved in the nuts and bolts. I hope they've avoided that, or at least got clear delineation between GAA money and 'Players' money.
Haven't time this morning to read through 5 pages, will do so later, but for now - what he said :)
Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on November 29, 2007, 05:33:30 PM
Believebelieve - Why don't you actually wait till you see the detail rather than just complaining about it.....The GPA/GAA put forward a proposal last year as to how the money would be distributed - and here is a summary - I will find the detailed listing when I can......
The GPA-GAA document provides €2,800 for each squad player in the All-Ireland senior football and hurling finals, right down to €1,650 for Tommy Murphy Cup first round losers.
Said a GPA-GAA statement: "It has been indicated that Government funding would be made available in the event that the GPA and GAA could agree terms on the utilisation and distribution of any funding provided. The proposal is under consideration."
The document reveals that the proposed scheme will be administered by a national committee which will consist of the Player Welfare Manager and the players' representative at Central Council, ie Farrell.
According to the GPA-GAA proposal, funding would be distributed in a number of ways:
75% to cover players out-of-pocket expenses arising from their participation on intercounty senior football and hurling panels.
A dual player will only be eligible for expenses in respect of his participation with either the senior hurling of senior football panel.
25% for the National Player Welfare programmes which will cover player insurance, scholarship, education/tuition/ distance-learning and such other programmes as may be considered appropriate.
The document contained a detailed breakdown of out-of-pocket expenses highlighting the special dietary needs of players, their training gear, motor expenses, communications and gym equipment.
The agreement would apply only for so long as government funding is made available for player welfare and will cease when and if government funding ceases. In this event there will be no responsibility on the GAA to continue funding and no such request will be made to it by the GPA.
The initial proposal contained only a small difference in payments from All-Ireland winners to Tommy Murphy first round losers....
25% didn't even go to the players but rather for a welfare programme...
AND THE MONEY WOULDN'T BE COMING FROM THE GAA IF HTE GOVT FUNDING CEASED...
you see there you go again - talking when you don't actually know the detail. I have said that we do not know the detail of this latest deal but that in my opinion i think it will be even more elitist than the last proposal in april of this year.
on your point relating to the initial proposal - you said there was only a small difference between the All Ireland winners and first round losers. Sorry but I am afraid I am going to have to pull you up on that. The difference between All Ireland winners and those who lose in the second round of the qualifiers and before is roughly 20 euro a week. To spell it out for you that means that when both were still involved in the championship the eventual All ireland winner was entitled to 20 euro more per week. or 80 euro per month while they were both involved. I don't class 20 euro a week to be a small difference.
If you want the details on this I will email you the joint document.
Can I ask you one simple question. Supposing I agreed with all these grants; would it not be fairer to provide each inter county footballer and hurler with the same grant aid per week and then simply stop the aid once your knocked out - wud this not be fairer? Or is it a case that the harder to train the further you get. Try telling Bryan Cullen that James Masters trained harder than him in 07.
From today's Irish Times :
GAA to introduce charter for players
Seán Moran GAA Correspondent
The GAA will introduce a charter for players and counties to expedite the agreement with the Gaelic Players Association and Irish Sports Council for the payment of player awards.
Yesterday's announcement of the deal that has averted the possibility of intercounty players withdrawing from panels at the start of next season will create obligations for players and counties.
"We're about to propose a charter on performance and standards that will apply to both counties and players," said Con Hogan, one of the GAA's negotiators. "Counties will have the responsibility for making sure they agree key performance criteria and training schedules to the required standards."
Among the county board responsibilities under the agreement are the establishing of performance targets with team managements and a code of conduct, including advice on the anti-doping code and the provision of qualified personnel to assist in and enhance player development.
The agreement had been negotiated to a successful conclusion earlier in the week by representatives of the Government, the Irish Sports Council, the GAA and GPA. Minister for Sport Séamus Brennan signed off on the deal after getting it green-lighted by the Taoiseach and Minister for Finance.
Both the GAA and GPA welcomed the preservation of the association's amateur status. President Nickey Brennan expressed happiness that "the association's core concerns had been addressed - the protection of the amateur status, the payment of funds from the Exchequer clearly defined as sports awards and the commitment that GAA funding generally would not be negatively impacted on in any way".
GPA secretary Kieran McGeeney said at a media conference the agreement would "keep amateur status in place". The conditions of the agreement state: "These schemes will be additional to, and will not negatively impact on existing funding or any future funding, provided by the Government to the GAA through the ISC. All parties recognise the amateur status of the GAA . . ."
The financial awards will largely conform to the schedule of payments agreed between the GAA and GPA last April. That schedule (see panel) was divided into four categories whereas the agreement between the Government, GAA, GPA and ISC will be based on two payment types, the Annual Team Performance Scheme and the Annual Support Scheme. In the case of the first group the players eligible will be footballers and hurlers with the top 12 counties: football's provincial finalists and the counties qualifying for the final qualifier round and in hurling the counties contesting the MacCarthy Cup.
The precise reconciliation of the figures will be worked out in the months ahead and the schemes will take effect from the end of 2008.
It is believed the sums available to players will range between €1,500 and €2,500. The money will be provided by the Irish Sports Council but distributed by the GAA through county boards. Payments and disputes will be monitored by a committee of Páraic Duffy, the GAA's player welfare manager, and Dessie Farrell, the GPA chief executive.
The GAA were at pains to emphasise the payment mechanism does not represent a climb-down. The association has said publicly since the agreement concluded with the GPA last April it would be prepared to distribute the money if made available by the Government. There had, however, been vehement objections to the proposal by the previous Minister for Sport, John O'Donoghue, that the funding be made available through additional infrastructural payments.
Players' responsibilities include attendance at 80 per cent of all training sessions/matches, demonstration of improvement through regular fitness testing, maintenance of an updated training log/diary, strict adherence to anti-doping code. Players who violate the code will not receive awards.
Players will commit to participate in an agreed level of coaching and games development work in their county on a voluntary basis. In co-operation with the Local Sports Partnerships players will visit schools and youth facilities as part of an overall policy to promote increased participation in their sports and involve themselves in initiatives at county and national level to promote their sports.
It is also specified "any inter-county squad or player may decline the amount".
The proposed payments to players isn't substantially affected by the reduction in the originally floated €5 million, as the schedule agreed by the GPA and GAA last April included a payment of €1,25 million into a player welfare fund, which will not now be available - it is stated in the agreement's conditions that player welfare is to be the responsibility of the GAA.
"If it had come we would have taken it," said Hogan of the amount, "but we acknowledge our own responsibility for player welfare. The involvement of the Sports Council removes this from the realms of pay-for-play. The rationale behind these awards is players aren't paid and so don't qualify for tax concessions."
Whereas there is no official guarantee the funding will be on an annual basis the sense of the agreement indicates payments will be ongoing and it is stated the schemes will be subject to triennial review, by the ISC. The agreement will require the endorsement of the GPA's executive and the GAA's Central Council.
© 2007 The Irish Times
More from the Times :
Farrell looks to 'recognition talks'
Seán Moran
The announcement of the resolution of the Government, GAA and GPA talks has been welcomed by all concerned. The launching of the players' award schemes is the culmination of a long campaign for material recognition on the part of the players' representative body.
With the threat of a players' strike now lifted - the GPA executive is expected to formalise that at its next meeting - the GAA is also happy. Association negotiator Con Hogan, who together with director general-designate Páraic Duffy represented Croke Park in the talks, expressed his satisfaction with the outcome.
"We were happy in the key area, that it's not in any way pay-for-play. No GAA money will be spent and it will be ring-fenced against any other funding for the GAA from the Irish Sports Council."
Commenting on the fact the final sum was lower than the amount originally mentioned by the last Minister for Sport, John O'Donoghue, Hogan said: "The €5 million was always notional but €3.5 million is as much as the Government were prepared to give."
GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell said the successful outcome to the talks was a significant advance for the players' organisation. "It's an important day for the GPA and we're very pleased. This was never just about money but a matter of recognition for players. It clears the air so that we can get the recognition talks with Croke Park sorted out. This has been such a high-profile issue that it's given the impression that we're all about money so now we have the opportunity to talk about other important matters.
"We can't be going from one confrontation to another. It's not the way to build a healthy relationship with Croke Park. Other sports don't have that friction between the players' organisations and the governing body."
The Minister for Sport, Séamus Brennan, welcomed the resolution in an interview on RTÉ Radio One's News at One, saying he believed the deal was "fairly affordable". "These are young people who give enormous amounts of time to sport and they do so on a voluntary basis. It's not for nothing because one deal I wanted out of this - and I was delighted I got it - was the commitment of the players that they would work with local sports partnerships through the community and visit schools."
Questioned about the status of women players, who are members of different organisations, the Minister said that that would be a matter for the camogie and women's football associations.
"We are establishing a forum on women's participation in sport and we're commencing that project. This is a particular scheme negotiated over a number of weeks and aimed at a particular group of players. If other players want to make a case to the Sports Council then they can go along and do that."
Geraldine Giles, president of Cumann Peil na mBan, said her organisation would be reserving their position for the time being before commenting on the Minister's proposed forum.
"I think we'll monitor the situation," she said. "I didn't hear the Minister's interview but we'd like to see what details there are of his proposals. In the meantime we're currently rolling out our strategic plan and that's where our focus will be over the coming weeks."
Tyrone manager Mickey Harte, who had said that he would have continued to field teams in the event of a players' strike, welcomed news of the resolution. "I think we should all learn from this, that we should keep the lines of communication open, we should try to understand each other's position, and not act in isolation within any part of the association," he said.
"To me, even the threat of a strike was not a good idea, so I'm delighted now that it's not going to be an issue, and that people have sorted out what needs to be sorted out just now."
"It would have been a distraction for players preparing for the new season.
"Everybody who is waiting for the new season to start wants players who are really ready for the new season. They don't want them to be in two minds - whether there is going to be a game or not going to be a game, are we really preparing for a competition or are we preparing to stand outside it."
© 2007 The Irish Times
I'll be interested to see a lot of the details teased out properly in the coming days, but for the moment I'll just say this - I get the feeling we've just paid an overdue ESB bill with a credit card on the basis that the bill for that won't come for another while yet.
All that has definitely happened is that the real battles have been postponed, while the lie of the land will look a little more daunting once reality has to be faced.
Drom the Indo
Quote
Farrell expertly batted away some of the more difficult questions. Asked "who will sign the cheques", he said "that's a matter for the GAA as far as we are concerned."
But the official statement says
Quote
Funding for the above schemes will be provided annually through the Irish Sports Council to the GAA and the criteria and arrangements for their disbursement will be agreed by the GAA, the GPA and the ISC.
Which is it? It's these sort of details I'd be nervous about
And here we have it ::)
THE principle may be agreed, a figure of €3.5m has even been allocated, but it quickly emerged yesterday that working out an agreed mechanism to distribute these new player grants will be far from simple and could take some time.
The Irish Sports Council (ISC) immediately clarified that they will not be directly involved in administering the GAA player grants.
They will sit down to set out agreed targets and evaluation procedures with the GAA, but ultimately it will be Croke Park and county boards who will have to distribute the money.
And given the size of the GAA's bureaucracy and the vested interests from team managers and county boards, agreeing those targets and measuring them will clearly be more problematic than other grant schemes that the ISC are already involved in.
"There is a piece of work to be done yet between ourselves and the GAA as to how this system is administered," a Sports Council spokesman admitted.
The ISC were at pains to stress that working through the governing body is exactly how they operate their other grant scheme for elite athletes, so this is not unusual.
But Sports Council officials conceded that the size, scale and complexity of the GAA agreement means this will be a very different scenario than the agreements they already have in place with Olympic sports.
There is already one clear difference that ensures some complicated negotiations lie ahead. In most Olympic sports, each governing body has a 'high performance manager,' who is charged with supervising and setting targets for its elite stars.
It is with these high performance managers, most of them paid officials, that the Sports Council works most closely in evaluating whether top athletes have reached their annual targets and rewarding them with further grant-aid.
The GAA has absolutely no equivalent 'high performance' staff, and to further complicate things the scheme is not designed to evaluate just a couple of athletes or one team but over 2000 athletes in 64 teams (hurling and football in 32 countries).
The GPA indicated yesterday that a national committee will be set up to administer the scheme and that sub-committees will also exist at county level to help run it
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 30, 2007, 04:49:02 AM
I get the feeling we've just paid an overdue ESB bill with a credit card on the basis that the bill for that won't come for another while yet.
Very well put Lone Shark
From today's IT
GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell said the successful outcome to the talks was a significant advance for the players' organisation. "It's an important day for the GPA and we're very pleased. This was never just about money but a matter of recognition for players. It clears the air so that we can get the recognition talks with Croke Park sorted out.
From Examiner:
Farrell to focus on GPA's greatest challenge
By Brendan O'Brien
WITH one mountain conquered, Dessie Farrell is now ready to turn his attention to the GPA's Everest.
The grants issue may have grabbed the headlines in recent times, particularly since the players body gave notice of strike action earlier this month, but official recognition from the GAA is the prize that Farrell and his lieutenants covet most of all.
Both the GPA and GAA have admitted that the grants issue has stalled other talks and Farrell is eager to kick start discussions on official recognition now that such a contentious matter has been all but put to bed.
Said the GPA chief executive: "This has been a major issue for everyone concerned and a lot of the other issues have been put on the back burner. Now that this has been put to bed we can look forward to pursuing our other objectives.
"I think the GAA are equally glad to see this resolved so we can concentrate on formalising official recognition for the players body and all that comes with that."
So we know what the next strike will be about unless the GAA roll over again.
Quote from: Tatler Jack on November 30, 2007, 08:58:26 AM
From today's IT
GPA chief executive Dessie Farrell said the successful outcome to the talks was a significant advance for the players' organisation. "It's an important day for the GPA and we're very pleased. This was never just about money but a matter of recognition for players. It clears the air so that we can get the recognition talks with Croke Park sorted out.
So we know what the next strike will be about unless the GAA roll over again.
Pity the GAA has already agreed to this one too .If the GAA won't want it then don't agree to it in the first place.
I am still in a state of shock. I never thought Nickey and the boys would cave in like this. Its the end of the GAA as we have known it. I was quite a vociferous opponent of removing Rule 42 as many here know but that issue was miniscule in terms of importance compared to this. You could sell Croke Park rather than let this happen. I'm sick in the bottom of my stomach. I just don't know any more. Its heartbreaking. I always thought that when the push came the GAA would resist it and win the day. Its not the organisation I thought it was maybe. Our enemies have won, without even breaking sweat.
If that seems ott and melodramatic then tough. Its just the way I feel.
This is an article I've submitted to the Offaly Indo, might run in the Westmeath independent as well. It ain't exactly the Star, but it's a step in the right direction anyway. Quite partisan, but it's not like Dessie and his lads like to put across a balanced viewpoint, and they seem to get a lot more air time than us. :D
"Peace for our Time!"
The historically aware among your will recognise these words as the way Neville Chamberlain described the Munich Agreement on his arrival back on British soil in 1938. Of course hindsight is always 20-20, and essentially what he returned with was not peace, but war deferred and an enemy emboldened.
While acknowledging that it is more than a trifle dramatic to compare the preamble to a savage global conflict with the agreement reached this week between the Government, GAA and the GPA, it remains apt as what has been negotiatied is utterly unsustainable in the long run and has succeeded in only in strengthening the GPA's hand for future disputes down the road. Countless key principles have been sacrificed, loopholes have been created so large that even a psychiatric nurse posing as a negotiator can and will waltz through them, and above all the core notion that the GAA is an open democracy with parity of esteem among members has been jettisoned.
To stretch the comparison a little further, last week your writer was among those rounded upon by Dessie Farrell in a national daily newspaper and the language used was anything but diplomatic. In a broad swipe at "the website chatroom mentality", Dessie put forth his belief that internet discussion boards were populated by "jealous f***ers" who don't want to engage in "a proper forum". It seemed to escape his attention that a GAA follower or member can't exactly jump into his television to put forth a counter argument when Dessie is being interviewed, any more than he has access to column inches in the National dailies. Website chatrooms on the other hand allow anyone to take part – even chief executives of players associations.
This rant, accompanied by the eve more shrill threat of a strike, echoed the increasingly erratic behaviour of Adolf Hitler as he grew wary in 1938 that Allied forces were about to call his bluff at a time when he was as yet unprepared for war. Perhaps the carpets in Dessie's house have that chewed look about them too – who can say?
The source of his concern was easy to understand – if the GAA and the GPA faced each other down, there was only ever going to be one winner. GAA supporters all across Ireland have followed their clubs and counties for generations with no conditions attached as to the standard of the players that fill the shirts. If the 2008 All Ireland was of a slightly poorer standard because the "elite" saw fit to be on strike, would that matter in the slightest to the county that won it? The GAA had all the cards, and yet they chose to concede many principles, and your writer is not alone in being hugely concerned for what grounds the next battle will be fought on.
Before we examine these issues, let's draw the distinction between wanting to aggressively crush the GPA pay-for-play agenda and wanting to fight against improved player welfare. Intercounty players do make tremendous sacrifices and it is only right that they receive the best of medical cover, both in terms of personnel and insurance. Their mileage rates should be comfortably adequate to cover for all eventualities, boots and other gear should be supplied promptly and regularly, and these are just some of the areas where the GAA would have been utterly correct in doing all they could to give players what they want. However the line in the sand had to be drawn at compensating players for "lost earnings". Every player who takes part in a hobby could spend that time working instead, and would be better off if they did so, financially at least. That does not put an onus on the hobby to reward the player for his time commensurately – it merely is one of life's choices – do I work, or do I play?
Nobody in Ireland or beyond is forced to play intercounty GAA, and that's as it should be. If a tradesman or a doctor chooses to pass up extra lucrative call outs to go training of a spring evening, that is his prerogative. Countless players down the years have stayed out of county panels in order to get their career moving or to pursue a more intense line of work. Does that thereby put an onus on their employer to provide them with an adoring crowd of thousands to watch them play sport in their free time, since they had to pass up inter county GAA – of course not.
This particular deal looks set to cause huge difficulty in several key areas however. The main concerns are:
(1) The GAA has still secured no guarantees from the GPA that in the event of this grant being withdrawn – and all government subsidies are pulled eventually in hard times – that the GPA will not then turn around and ask the GAA to foot the bill. This is the obvious next step, yet there appears to be no safeguard in place for that eventuality. This would be the final step to full professionalism.
(2) The GPA does not have any female members. GAA clubs on the other hand have thousands, with almost every club in the country having at least one and usually more women on their committee who invariably work tirelessly for the betterment of their club and community. Ladies football and camogie clubs in villages and towns also provide great social outlets for young women and add a great social aspect to the club as a whole. The GAA cannot afford to alienate this segment of their community, as they now risk having signed up to a blatantly sexist and discriminatory agreement. The GPA has a plan for the whole €3.5 million on the table, and Ladies football or Camogie is nowhere to be seen in this plan – this is not acceptable.
(3) The greater grant for greater progression means that GAA transfer rules could be over-ridden at any time. Only the top 12 teams in each code get the full grant – so if Niall McNamee chose to transfer to Dublin, or Darren McCormack chose to move south to Offaly – both acquisitions that the counties would be thrilled to make – the GAA couldn't block it. The player could easily take a "restraint of trade" case, and there isn't a court in the land who would even bat an eyelid before ruling in his favour. Dangerously, this also makes it easier for players to use this as a cover for changing counties for more lucrative "private incentives".
These are just some of the issues that now loom large on the horizon for the GPA. It falls now to the club members across Ireland to make their feelings known and to push them along the GAA's democratic channels in time for the upcoming Central Council meetings in December. Before the GAA should proceed with this, there needs to be a clear plan to deal with each of the above issues, not to mention a few straight answers sought of the GPA's ultimate agenda – for example why, if players are so stretched, are they eager to sign a deal which makes additional coaching and community demands of players? Why do they never seek to address the real sources of overwork on players, such as excessively long seasons and managers looking to justify under the table payments with inordinate numbers of sessions? What can they do to make their voting procedures more rigorous and thus give them the legitimacy to be brought under the auspices of the GAA as an official representative body?
It's still our GAA – for now. Before Dessie and his boys rip the heart out, take it back to your community, where it belongs. We will fight them on the pitches, we will never surrender....
good man lone shark, excellently written. maybe you could refer to dessie as arthur scargill.
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 30, 2007, 02:36:54 PM
This is an article I've submitted to the Offaly Indo, might run in the Westmeath independent as well. It ain't exactly the Star, but it's a step in the right direction anyway. Quite partisan, but it's not like Dessie and his lads like to put across a balanced viewpoint, and they seem to get a lot more air time than us. :D
"Peace for our Time!"
The historically aware among your will recognise these words as the way Neville Chamberlain described the Munich Agreement on his arrival back on British soil in 1938. Of course hindsight is always 20-20, and essentially what he returned with was not peace, but war deferred and an enemy emboldened.
While acknowledging that it is more than a trifle dramatic to compare the preamble to a savage global conflict with the agreement reached this week between the Government, GAA and the GPA, it remains apt as what has been negotiatied is utterly unsustainable in the long run and has succeeded in only in strengthening the GPA's hand for future disputes down the road. Countless key principles have been sacrificed, loopholes have been created so large that even a psychiatric nurse posing as a negotiator can and will waltz through them, and above all the core notion that the GAA is an open democracy with parity of esteem among members has been jettisoned.
To stretch the comparison a little further, last week your writer was among those rounded upon by Dessie Farrell in a national daily newspaper and the language used was anything but diplomatic. In a broad swipe at "the website chatroom mentality", Dessie put forth his belief that internet discussion boards were populated by "jealous f***ers" who don't want to engage in "a proper forum". It seemed to escape his attention that a GAA follower or member can't exactly jump into his television to put forth a counter argument when Dessie is being interviewed, any more than he has access to column inches in the National dailies. Website chatrooms on the other hand allow anyone to take part – even chief executives of players associations.
This rant, accompanied by the eve more shrill threat of a strike, echoed the increasingly erratic behaviour of Adolf Hitler as he grew wary in 1938 that Allied forces were about to call his bluff at a time when he was as yet unprepared for war. Perhaps the carpets in Dessie's house have that chewed look about them too – who can say?
The references to Hitler mean you've automatically lost the argument, ever heard of Godwin's law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Unfortunately, I agree with benny LS. I think the hyperbole has been overdone in this article. Your passion ran away with you here.
It's very well written, and I know where you're coming from, but it will be too easy for the pro-GPA or fence sitters to be scared away by the language.
Dunno whether anybody else heard it, but Matt Cooper interviewed Peter Canavan on the proposed deal last night on The last Word and Peter said that it was "a good deal for a start", and he said it on a few occasions in the interview.
Quote from: bennydorano on November 30, 2007, 03:09:14 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on November 30, 2007, 02:36:54 PM
This is an article I've submitted to the Offaly Indo, might run in the Westmeath independent as well. It ain't exactly the Star, but it's a step in the right direction anyway. Quite partisan, but it's not like Dessie and his lads like to put across a balanced viewpoint, and they seem to get a lot more air time than us. :D
"Peace for our Time!"
The historically aware among your will recognise these words as the way Neville Chamberlain described the Munich Agreement on his arrival back on British soil in 1938. Of course hindsight is always 20-20, and essentially what he returned with was not peace, but war deferred and an enemy emboldened.
While acknowledging that it is more than a trifle dramatic to compare the preamble to a savage global conflict with the agreement reached this week between the Government, GAA and the GPA, it remains apt as what has been negotiatied is utterly unsustainable in the long run and has succeeded in only in strengthening the GPA's hand for future disputes down the road. Countless key principles have been sacrificed, loopholes have been created so large that even a psychiatric nurse posing as a negotiator can and will waltz through them, and above all the core notion that the GAA is an open democracy with parity of esteem among members has been jettisoned.
To stretch the comparison a little further, last week your writer was among those rounded upon by Dessie Farrell in a national daily newspaper and the language used was anything but diplomatic. In a broad swipe at "the website chatroom mentality", Dessie put forth his belief that internet discussion boards were populated by "jealous f***ers" who don't want to engage in "a proper forum". It seemed to escape his attention that a GAA follower or member can't exactly jump into his television to put forth a counter argument when Dessie is being interviewed, any more than he has access to column inches in the National dailies. Website chatrooms on the other hand allow anyone to take part – even chief executives of players associations.
This rant, accompanied by the eve more shrill threat of a strike, echoed the increasingly erratic behaviour of Adolf Hitler as he grew wary in 1938 that Allied forces were about to call his bluff at a time when he was as yet unprepared for war. Perhaps the carpets in Dessie's house have that chewed look about them too – who can say?
The references to Hitler mean you've automatically lost the argument, ever heard of Godwin's law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
I wonder what Dessie's lawyers would make of the Hitler slur?
Just looking at the people who will be eligtible for the grants i.e. members of top ten football teams and top 12 hurling teams.
Smacks of elitism.
How have the GPA squared this? Are there any members of the GPA from Wicklow? Doesn't every county not deserve an equal share? If you had to include all county panels, what would the grant drop to?
Denn, I am far from happy with this, but just to clarify: *Everyone* who meets the criteria laid down is eligible for some sort of grant. The Kerrys, Dublins, Kilkennys etc of this world will be eligible for the Performance Related grant, while the other 40 county panels will be eligible for the 'Improvement Incentive' grant.
There will be more money per player for the 1st type of grant, and even within that, more for the winners than the quarter finalists, but there is money there for everyone.
I don't think we need to worry about players going to court to force transfers, that they aren't entitled to under current rules.
A sporting organisation will be allowed its eligibility rules as it sees fit. The GAA's rules on county transfers are fairly clear.
If someone successfully sued to allow them play county hurling/football for a county that aren't eligible to play for, by the same token:
- A man could take the GAA to court for sexual discrimination for not allowing him play in the ladies football championship.
- A 25 year old could claim age discrimination for not being allowed play for his club or county's minor team.
No more than a Brazilian international soccer player could take FIFA to court and be allowed play for Ireland, despite having no Irish passport, ancestors or whatever else might qualify him.
Or an Irish player go to court half way through a World Cup and want to transfer to Brazil or Italy, when Ireland get knocked out.
He could cite loss of earnings and everything else. Do people really think that courts would grant him the transfer?
Before anyone mentions it, the Bosman ruling wouldn't apply in a GAA scenario.
I wasn't going out to compare him in terms of personality, merely in terms of the issue and how it was handled. I did point out that it was more than a touch over dramatic, but it's hard to ignore the parallels between what was then and is now a complete appeasement deal. That is where I see the comparison. This fight could have been won if we took on the GPA here on this issue, whereas instead they will be a lot harder beaten the next time around. I appreciate that the language may have been interpreted as harsh, but does anyone think it was any less harsh than what Dessie used in the Star?
As for the transfers - the key difference here is that people can transfer across counties, and as we all know, the worse you are a footballer/hurler the easier you'll be let go. If a player can establish that he has been blocked from transferring for moderately legitimate reasons and that he has been denied the chance to earn money fom doing so, it leaves us in a very dangerous situation. If I was the lawyer for the a player in such a situation, I would make the following points:
(1) My client has moved residence as such is now resident in his new county
(2) Ladies and Underage games are designed to allow a forum for the young and female to play in an environment where they will be protected from the greater physical power of adult men - this does not apply here.
(3) The GAA's rules are arbitrary in their own way, and no doubt there are countless precedents for whatever you wanted to prove.
Perhaps I was being a little facetious when I said no judge would bat an eyelid, but you can't tell me it would be thrown out.
As for the soccer comparison, the money throws the argument off completely. A player cannot (nominally anyway) make extra money from switching nations - international soccer is unpaid. Plus it would be across jurisdictions, and finally the passport rule is fairly solid - it's only on our own island and a few other places like that where it gets a bit messy. GAA has no such fallback.
International soccer players do get money, albeit token by comparison to their club earnings, but certainly a lot more than the GAA grants/payments. It is common for them to get bonuses for reaching the latter stages of major tournaments. England were on £300,000 a man if they won the '06 World Cup. Even beyond that a player could cite lost endorsement earnings because he plays for a soccer association that doesn't qualify for major tournaments. There is plenty of basis to pursue a case.
Should Alex Bruce (lets pretend he's a great player), a British passport holder, born and reared in England, not be entitled to re-declare himself for England if he was worth his place and for a chance of bagging £300,000 in 4 year time? Are FIFA's restrictive laws not equally open to challenge?
The example may be far fetched, but so would a GAA "transfer to random county, without satisfying any criteria" case pursued on a lost earnings basis.
I don't see how the passport rule in soccer is more solid than the residence, birth, parent rules for playing/transferring to GAA counties. Players can transfer counties, once they fulfill certain criteria. The rules as they stand have plenty of scope to be flaunted, without recourse to the courts to get them ripped up, as Thomas Walsh recently proved.
I've bought it up on the other thread and was wondering if any of the legal eagles here could clarify something for me.
Regardless of the GAA and the GPA agreeing to a tiered payment system, is there any potential for legal action along these lines.
For example, Conor Mortimer could quite easily prove that he has put in as much training as Colm Cooper for the duration of last season (I don't know whether he did or not, it's just an example Dessie)
Could he claim in court that he should also receive the same amount as players who played in the All Ireland final?
We've had fellows already running to the courts cos they would take their medicine, or felf unfairly treated by the disciplinary system if you like. Can you imagine hos a few bob might incentivise the attraction of the four courts?
Liam Horan has a great piece in today's Examiner that sums up very well the views that many here hold over this whole deal. Unfortunately it does not seem to be available on the online edition. Finishes up by saying "the fat lady and the fat cats have sung". How true.
im aginst all this >:(
Quote from: stephenite on December 01, 2007, 02:34:29 AM
I've bought it up on the other thread and was wondering if any of the legal eagles here could clarify something for me.
Regardless of the GAA and the GPA agreeing to a tiered payment system, is there any potential for legal action along these lines.
For example, Conor Mortimer could quite easily prove that he has put in as much training as Colm Cooper for the duration of last season (I don't know whether he did or not, it's just an example Dessie)
Could he claim in court that he should also receive the same amount as players who played in the All Ireland final?
He could take up the matter with the Sports Council who administer the grants. He would have as much a case as any boxer, runner or rower who feels they aren't getting a fair crack of the whip with the allocation of grants. This wouldn't have anything to do with the GAA though.
Having been lurking around the board for the past month, I've finally gotten a chance to post again. I think it's a really sad day that players who should be honoured to put on the county jersey have to get a grant to put the jersey on. There are people like me who couldn't play for my club due to health problems. Perhaps if I was playing I might have some gripes, but I would remember that it IS SUPPOSED to be voluntary afterall and if I didn't want to do it, I wouldn't have to etc. I have heard of numerous players who had to quit panels due to work commitments. Basically what I'm trying to say is that the GPA deal is a total cave in by the GAA and that I'm in agreement with stephenite, Loneshark and nearly every other member of the board in what they say about the deal. Oh and dessie, I'm not a jealous f**ker either, just a normal person that cannot understand how members of your organisation need to be paid to put on the county jersey, because no matter what anyone says getting grants means getting money and that means being paid, right dessie? (I've left out the capital 'd' in your name dessie to show my disgust) >:(
QuoteSome friends of mine, who are against the GPA, have failed to see the hypocrisy and the double standards of it all.
All along they and other members of the GAA have been talking about the GPA being elitist but it's something the GAA has been practising for over three decades. Remember this trip is the All Stars. Not too many club players have made it on to that plane.
Jaysus, thats fairly confused mumbo jumbo .... talking through his arse a bit there
What would Adrian Logan know about the GAA?
Exactly right POG.
A couple of thoughts that i can't really square off so to speak.....
Prior to the agreement to give grants to GAA players, grants from the Irish Sports council to elite athletes throughout the country were made to cover the costs incurred in training, to allow the atheletes take time off work for spells of altitude training or whatever, to be able to receive treatment from world leading sports therapists, to re-locate to a more suitable location for training (e.g.: David Gillick to Loughborough) ..... the list i am sure would be lengthy if you were to find what everyone who receives a grant actually does with it.
One thing i am sure of is that everything in the list that would be applicable to an inter county player currently is paid for by the county boards. The stated purpose of the grants according to the press release is:
Quoteto meet additional costs associated with elite team performance and to encourage aspiring teams and players to reach the highest levels of sporting endeavour
All current costs associated with the above will continue to be paid for by county boards. If a team manager in consultation with the players decide to have an even more professional approach by wanting 3 physios at every training session rather than 1 and want 2 week long training camps in Portugal or wherever then what happens if the county board say 'no' we can't afford it - will all 30 panellists agree to pool their expenses for another training camp and to pay for the physios ?????? Not on your life.
So what exactly is the purpose of the grants ? GAA players that will receive grants from the sports council will be unique above all other sports people who also receive them in that their expenses will not be necessary to in order to play in an elite team or in order to achieve the required level of sprting endeavour
QuotePrior to the agreement to give grants to GAA players, grants from the Irish Sports council to elite athletes throughout the country were made to cover the costs incurred in training, to allow the atheletes take time off work for spells of altitude training or whatever, to be able to receive treatment from world leading sports therapists, to re-locate to a more suitable location for training (e.g.: David Gillick to Loughborough) ..... the list i am sure would be lengthy if you were to find what everyone who receives a grant actually does with it.
One thing i am sure of is that everything in the list that would be applicable to an inter county player currently is paid for by the county boards. The stated purpose of the grants according to the press release is:
I'm amazed at the concern many grassroots GAA people are recently developing for the minority sport athletes in this country. They all deserve more than what they are getting from the government but why should GAA players not get what they can from the government? like I've already said they help earn enough for the government
Quote from: darbyo on December 01, 2007, 11:59:07 PM
QuotePrior to the agreement to give grants to GAA players, grants from the Irish Sports council to elite athletes throughout the country were made to cover the costs incurred in training, to allow the atheletes take time off work for spells of altitude training or whatever, to be able to receive treatment from world leading sports therapists, to re-locate to a more suitable location for training (e.g.: David Gillick to Loughborough) ..... the list i am sure would be lengthy if you were to find what everyone who receives a grant actually does with it.
One thing i am sure of is that everything in the list that would be applicable to an inter county player currently is paid for by the county boards. The stated purpose of the grants according to the press release is:
I'm amazed at the concern many grassroots GAA people are recently developing for the minority sport athletes in this country. They all deserve more than what they are getting from the government but why should GAA players not get what they can from the government? like I've already said they help earn enough for the government
I think it's in response to the crying and whinging from the county players that they are hard done by.
Btw they earn nothing for the government, the GAA does.
Quote[Btw they earn nothing for the government, the GAA does./quote]
Lads please read my posts before critiquing them, I said.......
Quotethey help earn enough for the government
and if they weren't helping to earn money for the government another couple of thousand could take their place.
First off can we agree to continue this debate on one of the threads not both. But of these thousands you speak of how long would it be before these lads would like to take the money that the government is willing to give them. Let's say you and I are some of the lads that take the place of the current IC players. Two years of inter county training down the line and the government offer 3k is still on the table are you saying that you'd say no thanks I'm just doing it for the love of my county? Money could never buy the feeling of winning an AI with my county, the fact that players play with their county of birth (in general) is something that helps make the GAA special. But that is not changing here it's just that the government are willing to acknowledge that the elite GAA player should be treated like the elite rugby/soccer player by the state, i.e. some form of state rebate. I'm asking again what is wrong with that?
It's an amateur sport - we do it for the love of it - not for the money and the players are alrady well looked after - that's what's wrong with it - and £3k is hardly going to change your life is it ?
QuoteIt's an amateur sport - we do it for the love of it - not for the money and the players are alrady well looked after - that's what's wrong with it - and £3k is hardly going to change your life is it ?
Some players get looked after very well and can make a living off their profile in their county by opening a business etc. For many others the reality is different, this money is a small bonus for them. And like you say it's not going to change their lives, so why all the fuss? This is not pay for play it is the Irish government acknowledging the that the IC player is on a similar footing to pro soccer/rugby players.
So is it time Darbyo that we split panels into those who have plenty and those who are disadvantaged ??
Is it time to introduce a "means test" into the equtation ?
So that those who have a largesse ( that word is for DM who reckons I'm not articulate enough to join the debate - so I've had to brush up and introduce bigger words ) get nothing and those who are "suffering" get more ???
Should we do that instead ?
The GPA work on behalf of all inter county players, if they only represented the weaker county panels you can be sure no-one would care about them. I have no doubt that the GPA will continue to agitate for a better deal for IC players, and I'm sure that the day will come when they'll be looking for an improvement on this deal i.e. more money. But professionalism isn't on the cards because everyone accepts that it is unsustainable, where the line in the sand is, I'm not sure but I don't accept this doomsday scenario and no-one here has articulated how this is going to come to pass.
Darbyo - if you are SO sure that the GPA will NEVER EVER press for profesionalism, then why don't they come out and make this CRYSTAL CLEAR ?
If they were to come out and state this publicly and unambigusoly ( am I pleasing you now DM ? ) , then I think that this would go a long way to allay the grave concerns held by the grass roots - this would end the suspicon and acrimoney that now exists - ad maybe then, the grassroots could even lend their support to the players.
Quote from: darbyo on December 01, 2007, 11:59:07 PM
QuotePrior to the agreement to give grants to GAA players, grants from the Irish Sports council to elite athletes throughout the country were made to cover the costs incurred in training, to allow the atheletes take time off work for spells of altitude training or whatever, to be able to receive treatment from world leading sports therapists, to re-locate to a more suitable location for training (e.g.: David Gillick to Loughborough) ..... the list i am sure would be lengthy if you were to find what everyone who receives a grant actually does with it.
One thing i am sure of is that everything in the list that would be applicable to an inter county player currently is paid for by the county boards. The stated purpose of the grants according to the press release is:
I'm amazed at the concern many grassroots GAA people are recently developing for the minority sport athletes in this country. They all deserve more than what they are getting from the government but why should GAA players not get what they can from the government? like I've already said they help earn enough for the government
I take it that you are highlighting that some of the non-GAA receivers of grants use the money to take time off work. I think you'll see accross the board, whether they be rowers, athletes, cyclists or whatever, that the taking time off work is more like a complete sabbitical for a few months if not longer where the person puts their life completely on hold with the ambition of qualifying for the Olympics or whatever. They tend to live off a shoe-string and invariably end up after a few years of striving for their dream greatly in debt. They don't have an overall association for their sport that takes care of all expenses associated with their training like the GAA does with all county teams. The myth of GAA payers losing out on income by taking time of work is a myth in all cases bar those that are self emplyed and even those guys more often than not gain indirectly anyway from their profile. Every where else you have 20-60 days leave and you fit in your training schedule and all other associated activities around these holidays. If i were one of the non-GAA receviers of the grants today, i would be well pissed off that GAA players, who already have all their expenses covered, are now effectively getting paid by the sports council.
Saying the grants are to put the GAA players in a more equitable position compared with professional rugby players and the tiny group of other sports people in this country who make money from their sport is just simply not comparing like with like. And in addition, are all sports professionals in the north allowed large chunks of tax rebates when they are finished their careers ? i doubt it.
The bottom line is that the vast majority of GAA players do not need the grant to be as good as they possibly could be. Pretty much all of the other receivers do and thus the payment to GAA players should not be attempted to be disguised as anything other than pay for play.
QuoteIf they were to come out and state this publicly and unambigusoly ( am I pleasing you now DM
You would have pleased and impressed him more if you spelt it correctly - thats one of the problems with big words ;)
QuoteSaying the grants are to put the GAA players in a more equitable position compared with professional rugby players and the tiny group of other sports people in this country who make money from their sport is just simply not comparing like with like. And in addition, are all sports professionals in the north allowed large chunks of tax rebates when they are finished their careers ? i doubt it.
The bottom line is that the vast majority of GAA players do not need the grant to be as good as they possibly could be. Pretty much all of the other receivers do and thus the payment to GAA players should not be attempted to be disguised as anything other than pay for play.
The justification for this grant is based on the tax breaks that rugby players (amongst others) get. If they weren't getting that then the government giving GAA players grants would be harder to justify. So it is a fair comparison, but I agree that this grant won't allow GAA players to attain greater levels of excellence. The reasons that the minister of sport, the Irish sports council, the GAA or the GPA give for this grant is entirely irrelevant to me. As long as the fundamental structures of the GAA remain intact i.e. the club and county system as they are now then I'm not bothered if the government pays us all for what we do.
I don't want to see the GAA going professional because I have any great affection for amateurism but because the whole fabric of the GAA would have to change and in any professional set up many clubs and quite a few counties would be wiped out. I don't accept that this grant is pay-for-play but if it is then that is fine by me. I don't know Sean Cavanagh or Henry Shefflin but I'm confident that when they pulled on their counties jersey their motivation was 'pure', now the government is willing to give them a cash 'bonus' as well. Their motivation hasn't changed they are not now playing for the money they are still playing for their community.
Maybe the day will arrive when the GPA push for a professional game, if that day arrives I'll be standing beside you guys against the GPA. Not because I don't want them getting more money, not because I think that they think they are more important to the GAA than me (IMO they are), but because professionalism is not sustainable or good for the GAA.
I agree with most of what you say but we differ in that i am convinced there is an enevitability in terms of where this is going to go and that will start with demands for an increase in the grant in 12 months time (inflation being the buzz word) followed by (if not before) demands for a share in TV money (which will have Mick O'Dwyer and Joe Duffy and co screaming in favour of the players), etc. etc. (it may even start next Thursday if Brian Cowens budget, revised based on reduced tax take, does not include a budgetary forecast for the GPA grant for next year). What else are we left to think when there is no clear roadmap for where the GPA want to be in 3 to 5 years time. You are giving them the benefit of the doubt - most other people on here are not.
This will also change the mindset of young lads growing up with the realisation that playing for the bigger counties means more money which will have mindset and culture changes
QuoteThe justification for this grant is based on the tax breaks that rugby players (amongst others) get. If they weren't getting that then the government giving GAA players grants would be harder to justify.
This is one thing i don't agree with either. If we are going to start giving grants to all intercountry GAA players because of the cultural and sporting significance the GAA continues to play in Ireland as a whole and the level of effort the players put into it then surely say the non-professional players that play with Merry Monk basketball club in Ballina are entitled to a grant given the importance of the club for the people of that region. Same principle could be applied to many many sports and associated catchments in the country.
Hopefully it'll be the GPA that has to defend this frankly ridiculous notion that playing male inter county senior Gaelic games has some kind of cultural value over playing, I don't know, junior soccer. Bet ya it'll be the GAA taking the flak for it though.
QuoteHopefully it'll be the GPA that has to defend this frankly ridiculous notion that playing male inter county senior Gaelic games has some kind of cultural value over playing, I don't know, junior soccer.
I don't see that comparison you make as being ridiculous at all. If you said professional rugby or top level basketball or even Eircom bloody league then i'd say fair enough ... but junior soccer ::)
For hundreds and hundreds of rural villages in Ireland, they are defined by their church, their national school and their GAA club. I can only think of tops 2 parishes / villages in Mayo where the soccer club in anyway contributes in defining the area, and in one of the 2 cases its more because of the ridiculous name of the soccer club
Quote from: blast05 on December 02, 2007, 05:02:33 PM
I don't see that comparison you make as being ridiculous at all. If you said professional rugby or top level basketball or even Eircom bloody league then i'd say fair enough ... but junior soccer ::)
For hundreds and hundreds of rural villages in Ireland, they are defined by their church, their national school and their GAA club. I can only think of tops 2 parishes / villages in Mayo where the soccer club in anyway contributes in defining the area, and in one of the 2 cases its more because of the ridiculous name of the soccer club
I can't speak for all aprts of Ireland, but I can certainly speak about my own patch. I see the vibrant junior soccer leagues in Waterford. Several of my work colleagues are heavily involved, entirely without monetary reward. They would be entitled to take a dim view of those who believe that their efforts are less culturally worthwhile than the GAA boys. All of them like Gaelic games to a greater or lesser degree and certainly have no hangups. I wouldn't blame them though if they started muttering among themselves that Dessie and co are playing the Irishness card to the detriment of other spoirts.
Its roots in the time wher we let our guard down in Celtic Tiger Ireland,,, pay for play as defined by Bertie moves another step forward... Thank the Lord we averted strike action