NOW THAT the major schools GAA competitions are over, it is time to pay tribute to a group of people who run these matches with outstanding efficiency, economy and effort.
This is the Ulster GAA Colleges committee, a small band of volunteers who produce a set of fixtures to rival any county board, with no headquarters, no full time staff and very little finance.
Schools are not clubs, they don't need to worry about who is going to do the bar on Friday night, or how much the lotto took in, or if enough money came in this month to pay the loan. All they need to focus on is making their teams play good football.
Added to this is the discipline and respect for the referee that the teachers instil in their pupils and much that we want to see from our games ends up on show at these matches. I'd say the game between the Abbey and Maghera was probably the best game of football played this year.
Ulster Colleges GAA is not elitist. They welcome teams from other sectors. Our school, St Paul's Bessbrook, has been residing in this territory now for four years and will be in the MacRory next year and if Holy Trinity Cookstown decide they want to step up too, they will be met with open arms. However, while the committee themselves are inclusive, the system out of which they operate is anything but, and this is where the GAA needs to step in.
It is hard to avoid the fact that a turf war is going on at present between the grammar schools on one side with the government and Catholic Church on the other, based round the 'What We Have We Hold' principle. And what they have is quite plush indeed. At age 11, they cream off the best primary sevens for themselves and shove the rest into the 'Vocational' sector.
These great Catholic schools, apparently committed to the 'education of the whole person', residing in sumptuous diocesan grounds with beautiful facades and fantastic facilities, wouldn't let a child without a certain intellectual ability past their beautiful wrought iron gates for love nor money (well maybe money, though since boarding stopped, the rich and thick have to find another way of buying their places).
Of course, when they have filled all their places with As, they go down the alphabet until they come to the Ds and if a primary seven has done the test and failed and there is a place, they will take him too. Not so much every child a number, as every child a letter.
When the government decided that this was unjust and proposed change, they refused to budge. And when the Catholic Church, who actually own the properties and the ethos to which these schools apparently belong, stepped in and said, 'Look lads, the party is over', they told them to get stuffed too.
This shows the utter arrogance of this sector; that they believe their anti-Catholic method of selection is more important than the future of education itself. The line, 'Suffer little Children to come onto me,' for these schools continues...
'As long as you have an A in the ridiculously inaccurate unregulated tests for primary seven children for which we have enlisted private companies to run for us on property owned by the Catholic Church who don't even agree with our policy of selection.'
The Church itself has to share some of the blame because it has been weak in standing up to these schools. Many of them have bishops as chair of governors, some of whom secretly enjoy the dripping tradition of these results factories and would recoil at the thought of 'ordinary' children passing through their hallowed doors.
They claim that this tradition is part of the fabric of these schools, but this sounds too much like the Augusta Golf Club using the same argument for not letting women or even black people up until the late 90s, become members.
And they're great at perpetuating this two tier system themselves. Ten years ago when two new Catholic schools sprung up to cope with the burgeoning Catholic population in south Belfast, instead of embracing equality and making the schools comprehensive, they created a grammar and a secondary and called one Aquinas after the noble scholar and the other St Joseph's after the humble carpenter. A lovely set of labels to give the new first year pupils.
All of this for fear that the new middle class Catholics might send their children to Methody or Inst. if they had no grammar school to go to. A really inspirational rationale.
The injustice is stark. On my very first day as a new pupil in St Colman's Newry, 1st September 1979 aged 11, I saw it with my own two eyes when we, the lucky clever boys got rewarded with a beautiful college at the end of a sweeping avenue, while over the hill, in full view from our fantastic Art room, was the rundown, gloomy building of St Joseph's Secondary School for those boys who had committed the sin of not passing their 11 plus.
In between were the pristine College football fields and, I kid you not, the College farm. I knew something was wrong in education then, aged 1. It is still wrong.
So what has this got to do with the GAA?
Quite a lot actually, for as long as we have a Colleges sector and a Vocational sector, we are bedfellows in this charade. And the GAA is now being used as a tool by these schools to get one over the other one.
Vast sums of money, resources and time are being invested to win the MacRory which wouldn't be out of place in the Leinster Schools Rugby scene and some of the tactics used to recruit players border on the laughable if it wasn't so serious.
Schools who revel in their 'academic ethos', suddenly going all pastoral and allowing boys from local secondaries with two GCSEs in to do A Levels. (as long as they can play football, who cares if they end up with three U grades) Meanwhile, ordinary lads are told their five GCSE's aren't good enough for a place in Upper Sixth.
So in these colleges, there is an elite within an elite and inevitably, this breeds resentment among the other lads, the good club players who can't make the team, the boys who are unfortunate enough not to be good at football, and those who love the arts, the orchestra and the choir, who feel like second class citizens.
I see within the recently launched GAA Post Primary Strategy, there are plans for a 'root and branch' review of all schools football in 2014. This date sounds very much like the 'we're going to sort all this out in two years time' line we're hearing from the Catholic Church and the government here.
For example, in their strategic plan, the Northern Ireland Council for Catholic Education has ambitious proposals to make every school answerable to its geographical catchment area as opposed to the attainment of children aged 11. It is a sound, sensible document.
However, Newry is seen as such a powerhouse of grammar school tradition, that they have decided to do absolutely nothing there for two years. And in two years time they will do the same because they're all afraid of these schools when the answer is beautifully simple.
Tell them if they want to continue with their ridiculous nonsense of selection, tradition and elitism that they can do so, but without any funding from the Department of Education, nor on property belonging to the Catholic Church.
But the GAA can and needs to take a lead on this. Establish a simple divisional league for MacRory, MacLarnon, Markey and other competitions and allow schools to decide themselves where they belong. Whether a school is a grammar or a secondary should be irrelevant.
And the grammar schools too need to catch themselves on. They are contributing most to burn out of talented players with their ridiculous training demands on lads from September to March, making players pawns in their mission to make their school more elite and with better traditions than the others.
Change is needed, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The grammars will continue to 'walk their traditional route' as long as they are allowed to.
Good article. How many primary school friendships has this system destroyed. In my own case I lost good friends because they went to brothers and I went to the local secondary school.
He is conflating two points here. A general one about academic selection and whether this should form the basis of GAA competitions (it shouldn't).
So in St Pauls does a clumsy useless fellow get on the football team, or there a selective process?
Very good article indeed. Always remember an old man who looked after kids all his life saying teachers were a curse on the GAA. Makes you wonder.
Not sure on this article as he goes across so many different issues, school selection, church elitism, the class system, monied parents paying for education, burn out, lack of government investment in the comprehensive sector to name but a few.
Would be saying this if he had landed a job at Colmans or one of the other elite' schools?
Doesnt sit overly well with me despite agreeing with some of his points.
Slightly off topic, but I was thinking about the reaction to a school winning the MacRory yesterday compared to a school winning a soccer competition. It came about as my old Primary School won the NI Primary Schools Cup yesterday and my Secondary school (straight across the road from the Primary school) won both the NI U-16 and U-18 schools cup yesterday also. While it would be great to win the MacRory, surely it is a greater achievement to win the soccer competition considering you have I'd imagine a far higher number of schools competing plus the schools involved would not be limited to one religion.
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 26, 2012, 11:44:50 AM
Slightly off topic, but I was thinking about the reaction to a school winning the MacRory yesterday compared to a school winning a soccer competition. It came about as my old Primary School won the NI Primary Schools Cup yesterday and my Secondary school (straight across the road from the Primary school) won both the NI U-16 and U-18 schools cup yesterday also. While it would be great to win the MacRory, surely it is a greater achievement to win the soccer competition considering you have I'd imagine a far higher number of schools competing plus the schools involved would not be limited to one religion.
It's an achievement to get to the top of whatever field you've chosen to compete in and i'd argue that one isn't "greater" than the other.
How do we get those super soccer players in Strabane to play gaelic as well?
Quote from: Rois on April 26, 2012, 01:07:34 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on April 26, 2012, 11:44:50 AM
Slightly off topic, but I was thinking about the reaction to a school winning the MacRory yesterday compared to a school winning a soccer competition. It came about as my old Primary School won the NI Primary Schools Cup yesterday and my Secondary school (straight across the road from the Primary school) won both the NI U-16 and U-18 schools cup yesterday also. While it would be great to win the MacRory, surely it is a greater achievement to win the soccer competition considering you have I'd imagine a far higher number of schools competing plus the schools involved would not be limited to one religion.
It's an achievement to get to the top of whatever field you've chosen to compete in and i'd argue that one isn't "greater" than the other.
How do we get those super soccer players in Strabane to play gaelic as well?
There's a million dollar question there Rois.
I was up yesterday for the finals. Poor games, but cracking atmosphere, and great to see the old schools do the business.
Rois- I've argued for years that the N Tyrone Club's need to work together on the 'schools' issue, and I know this was started last year, but appears to have ran out of steam. However I'd say there is a 'soccer' culture engrained in Strabane that is going to be very difficult to overcome.
Funnily enough my former school principal had an article along the same lines in a local newspaper. He was arguing that the Grammar schools were downgrading their entry levels just to fill their classrooms and hence keep their slice of the budget and teacher count irrespective if it was the right thing to do for the child. You might say that the parents of the children who wouldn't normally be considered academic would know whats best, but sometimes thats far from the case.
Now, the former 11+ didn't exactly excel here either as it took the top certain percentage based on the number of grammar schools seats available as well. No matter how smart young johnney was, if X percent were smarter he didn't get in. Some parent were spending a small fortune getting their child tutored for the 11+, but if they passed the 11+ and got into a grammar, that support was no longer there and the child suffered. I have a few friends school teachers in grammar schools and they used to say that they could spot the tutored children fairly quickly.
Now the grammar schools have loads of seats to fill and theres a drop in students, the colleges are feeling the pinch as they're bottom of the food chain.
Every parent wants the best education for their child and grammar schools are perceived be be that, I just don't think they suit every child and
Grammar school teachers don't believe they should have to differentiate their lessons to suit the different levels of ability in the class. and the thing is they are getting away with it by the inspectorate and parents accept that their child is finding it difficult to 'keep up'.
Primary school teachers are , on the other hand, expected to deal with the different abilities in the classroom and prepare their lessons accordingly. Not only for for the less able but those small number of children who are above average as well they have to be seen to be challenged. So in effect , within the primary sector there are 3 lessons going on within one lesson. Grammar schools ought to be challenged more about what thy are doing for the less able in their school instead of teaching of the one level all the time
Excellent article from Burns re the grammar schools and academic selection by the way!
QuoteHe was arguing that the Grammar schools were downgrading their entry levels just to fill their classrooms and hence keep their slice of the budget and teacher count irrespective if it was the right thing to do for the child.
Of course this is going on. This is probably not too bad in Newry which has a reasonably buoyant population, but it is very much the case with some Protestant grammars.
QuoteGrammar school teachers don't believe they should have to differentiate their lessons
That's the whole point of selection. People in the class have similar ability and so can proceed at maximum speed.
I must admit, looking back now on my old alma mater, St Patrick's Maghera, they were 30 / 40 years ahead of the game.
The academic structure there is that it is open to all students, regardless of performance of 11 plus.
In 1st year, kids are put into classes aligned with ability, so you finished up with a vocational school, with a grammar stream.
Each year after, the kids are continuously realigned according to ability, so someone who failed the 11 plus, but performed well in school, could move up, and vice versa.
However, when you come to GCSE's, your subject elective choices leads to a cross fertilization of sorts, where a class could have a mixture of students across the ability range
I believe that it was a fair solution, and it supported respect across the student body. No snobbery etc
And when it came to sports, the school wasn't compromising there academic philosophy by "sneaking players in for sports" who otherwise would meet there normal academic standards.
Quote from: Kickham csc on April 26, 2012, 04:24:36 PM
I must admit, looking back now on my old alma mater, St Patrick's Maghera, they were 30 / 40 years ahead of the game.
The academic structure there is that it is open to all students, regardless of performance of 11 plus.
In 1st year, kids are put into classes aligned with ability, so you finished up with a vocational school, with a grammar stream.
Each year after, the kids are continuously realigned according to ability, so someone who failed the 11 plus, but performed well in school, could move up, and vice versa.
However, when you come to GCSE's, your subject elective choices leads to a cross fertilization of sorts, where a class could have a mixture of students across the ability range
I believe that it was a fair solution, and it supported respect across the student body. No snobbery etc
And when it came to sports, the school wasn't compromising there academic philosophy by "sneaking players in for sports" who otherwise would meet there normal academic standards.
Sounds good surely, but is this not always the way it was done? I'm not sure, but i started a vocational school near 20 years ago, and was put in the top band due to having a good 11 plus. Having since taught in vocational and grammar schools i think they both have excellent standards. The armagh and newry area is going to be difficult to solve though, newry's 2 boys grammar and 2 girls grammer must easily be in the top 7 or 8 schools in the north for grades. They all have fairly fresh buildings, especially the lads schools, hard to see what kind of merging can be done.
Good of jarly to speak up though!
Quote from: johnneycool on April 26, 2012, 02:47:43 PM
Funnily enough my former school principal had an article along the same lines in a local newspaper. He was arguing that the Grammar schools were downgrading their entry levels just to fill their classrooms and hence keep their slice of the budget and teacher count irrespective if it was the right thing to do for the child. You might say that the parents of the children who wouldn't normally be considered academic would know whats best, but sometimes thats far from the case.
Hit the Nail on the head there. That's exactly what is being done.
If I was John O'Dowd i would call the grammar schools bluff.
Bring back the eleven plus but limit grammar schools intake to just A and B grades.
Watch the number of grammar schools who would become comprehensive overnight.
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
+1
Or pushing party policy.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
Very unlikely anyone in a grammar school would write that article, turkeys don't vote for xmas
Quote from: oakleafgael on April 26, 2012, 05:47:36 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
+1
Or pushing party policy.
Exactly, look who posted the article.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 26, 2012, 04:16:16 PM
QuoteHe was arguing that the Grammar schools were downgrading their entry levels just to fill their classrooms and hence keep their slice of the budget and teacher count irrespective if it was the right thing to do for the child.
Of course this is going on. This is probably not too bad in Newry which has a reasonably buoyant population, but it is very much the case with some Protestant grammars.
QuoteGrammar school teachers don't believe they should have to differentiate their lessons
That's the whole point of selection. People in the class have similar ability and so can proceed at maximum speed.
But they are not of similar ability. Grammar schools are prepared to accept Cs and Ds just to fill their places. Therefore pupils with below average ability are sitting in classes with pupils of A grade standard.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
I think this is where the jealousy is coming from. It's common knowledge that Jarlath Burns went for the principals job of St Colman's and didn't even get an interview and possibly even more than once. I'd say it would be a different story coming from him if he was sitting as headmaster of St Colman's in the
"beautiful college at the end of a sweeping avenue".
Quote from: Line Ball on April 26, 2012, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
I think this is where the jealousy is coming from. It's common knowledge that Jarlath Burns went for the principals job of St Colman's and didn't even get an interview and possibly even more than once. I'd say it would be a different story coming from him if he was sitting as headmaster of St Colman's in the "beautiful college at the end of a sweeping avenue".
What the actual f**k?!
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 26, 2012, 09:45:17 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on April 26, 2012, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
I think this is where the jealousy is coming from. It's common knowledge that Jarlath Burns went for the principals job of St Colman's and didn't even get an interview and possibly even more than once. I'd say it would be a different story coming from him if he was sitting as headmaster of St Colman's in the "beautiful college at the end of a sweeping avenue".
What the actual f**k?!
Did I touch a nerve there?
Quote from: Line Ball on April 26, 2012, 09:50:50 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 26, 2012, 09:45:17 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on April 26, 2012, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
I think this is where the jealousy is coming from. It's common knowledge that Jarlath Burns went for the principals job of St Colman's and didn't even get an interview and possibly even more than once. I'd say it would be a different story coming from him if he was sitting as headmaster of St Colman's in the "beautiful college at the end of a sweeping avenue".
What the actual f**k?!
Did I touch a nerve there?
:-\ I just think that's a bizarre comment, on so many different levels.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 26, 2012, 09:54:27 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on April 26, 2012, 09:50:50 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on April 26, 2012, 09:45:17 PM
Quote from: Line Ball on April 26, 2012, 09:30:56 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
I think this is where the jealousy is coming from. It's common knowledge that Jarlath Burns went for the principals job of St Colman's and didn't even get an interview and possibly even more than once. I'd say it would be a different story coming from him if he was sitting as headmaster of St Colman's in the "beautiful college at the end of a sweeping avenue".
What the actual f**k?!
Did I touch a nerve there?
:-\ I just think that's a bizarre comment, on so many different levels.
Don't know how you work that one out. On one hand the man slates academic selection and the
"utter arrogance of this sector" yet on the other hand he is a wannabe principal of a Grammar school, where if he had been good enough he would have got it. I doubt we would be having this discussion now if he had.
But maybe if he had got the job he would have moved to end selection for it.
QuoteBut maybe if he had got the job he would have moved to end selection for it.
He wouldn't have got the job with that manifesto. But he wouldn't be the first politician to do a U turn.
When you can't defeat the argument, attack the man (http://z5.ifrm.com/5902/57/0/e14482/e14482.gif)
The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.
So you can pick the best players for a football team but schools can't pick the best students for education?
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 26, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM
The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.
The best teachers teach in every school.
The most academically adept teachers teach in grammars. Secondary schools would take on anyone in that regard. Secondary schools have the best pastoral and discipline specialists. Sweeping but an opinion.
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 27, 2012, 12:06:44 AM
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 26, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM
The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.
The best teachers teach in every school.
The most academically adept teachers teach in grammars. Secondary schools would take on anyone in that regard. Secondary schools have the best pastoral and discipline specialists. Sweeping but an opinion.
And one you are entitled to have because you have made it clear that it is your opinion and not fact. That is the problem with the article which as roused such unnecessary attacks on its author. It is merely opinion and because it is contain factual errors and is built on perceptions it misses an opportunity.
BTW I would disagree with your opinion, I think that the best post primary teachers are those who have a sound educational basis for their specialist subject, have real concern for their students and who are able to relate to their students as valued individuals. They are found in all types of schools, they are not produced by training colleges or universities but a nurtured in schools which try to espouse the same values. Just like in teaching sometimes it happens and some times the required change does not occur for reasons outside the control of the school.
Looking back on my schooling, I learned more from those who were the opposite of your ideal teacher. I can picture one who was socially awkward, had little pastoral expertise, showed no awareness of individual development but if you simply wanted to learn he was gold dust. I'd imagine Lumen Christi would employ him 100 times over someone with limited subject knowledge but excellent pastoral skill.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 27, 2012, 12:32:28 AM
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 26, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM
The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.
The best teachers teach in every school.
The most academically adept teachers teach in grammars. Secondary schools would take on anyone in that regard. Secondary schools have the best pastoral and discipline specialists. Sweeping but an opinion.
The best teachers will be found in all schools, and can be well recognised. One of my science teachers (whom oddly enough now teaches at Omagh CBS) was well renowned for being able to get the best out of all her students, even those with little academic ability, with nearly all getting C's or above at GCSE. Similarly those in grammar schools should be able par course to get every student C or above in the primary subject they teach (and a sh*t load of A's and A*s) with the very odd exception. However poorer teachers will be more exposed in a non-grammar environment if there is a pattern in results which shows few students getting C's or above at GCSEs and all others generally getting D's, E's, F's etc. especially compared to other teachers who can get C's and above in their subjects with the same pupils. Such teachers in grammars can mask their problems more easily. Whereas with a more mediocre teacher the more able students in the main should still be able to get on with the work and pass because of their own abilities and interests, some other students will more easily have the finger pointed at them that they are simply not putting enough effort in or are just not up to it first rather than asking wherever the teacher needs to update or change his or her method of teaching their students. A good teacher should be able to communicate their passion in the subject taught to their students to make them interested and make the effort in the first place.
It's no surprise that private tutors hired by parents for their child's 11 plus (and the nowadays relevant tests) coaching tend to be more from secondary schools rather than grammars (or at least those who have taught solely in grammars), simply because the secondary school teacher is more likely to have experience in helping bring average and below average students to above average levels as opposed to those who have taught only in grammars; though of course there are a few exceptions.
Sorry - I can't make head nor tail of that, even the first sentence.
Quote from: Minder on April 26, 2012, 05:49:08 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on April 26, 2012, 05:47:36 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 26, 2012, 05:41:46 PM
If he was Head or Deputy Head in a grammar school he wouldnt have written that article. Big chip on his shoulder in my opinion.
+1
Or pushing party policy.
Exactly, look who posted the article.
Posted it because it was an article in Gaelic Life by a very prominent GAA man and also thought it would be of interest to those who have an opinion regarding academic selection in the North.No other reason.
That was my point on it Tony and didnt sit to well with me.
And on the Maghera thing is that still the case today? Welcoming lads for vocational courses because the can kick MacCrory ball?
The article is supposed to be about the role the GAA has to play. To open it out into a wider debate means it'll go nowhere only over same old ground. You can argue merits of any system, but for me, the idea that you would have a separate gaelic games competitions based on academic selection criteria is downright f**king mental and fairly repugnant.
I'm not fully briefed on the history of this and the steps that Ulster Colleges GAA have taken to break this down. Would welcome any insight anyone can give into this? Is it no longer the case and are the divisional competitions now fully integrated so to speak based on team standard? Or is it just now the case that because grammar schools tend to have a wider catchment area that they dominate the 'A' competitions.
The existence of a vocational schools sports sector throughout Ireland is puzzling to me.
Quote from: NAG1 on April 27, 2012, 09:34:38 AM
That was my point on it Tony and didnt sit to well with me.
And on the Maghera thing is that still the case today? Welcoming lads for vocational courses because the can kick MacCrory ball?
What relevance does that have to anything? This is exactly the attitude Burns is talking about.
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM
The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.
horseshit
Quote from: sheamy on April 27, 2012, 09:59:35 AM
Quote from: ONeill on April 26, 2012, 11:29:30 PM
The best teachers teach in Grammar schools.
horseshit
ONeill is 100% correct. Just look at the difference in GCSE and A Level results.
Halve the secondary school teachers can't even write right or speak right.
From my perspective the ROI education sector is failing pretty miserably tbh. Not in terms of the intelligence of its students but in terms of structure, ages and the prevalence of a "private" schooling system. If you were to look at the student profile of the high CAO point courses I'd say up to 50% of them would have done at least a years study at a fee paying school.
To me, if you were unable to pay for fee-paying schools or fell by the wayside at the wrong time it would severely affect your chances of getting into the higher demand CAO courses.
To me that is a more unfair system than 1 were you are rewarded for passing aptitude tests (although 11 is very young). The annoying thing about this thread is that Burns is now just another party hack pushing party line. He would drop this issue the minute it suited him and although he is opposed to academic selection it would seem that the other kinds of selection and social exclusion that occur are of no importance to him.
In short what I'm saying is that the current system is far from perfect but it needs to be replaced by a better model, not a different one that is equally as flawed.
Quote from: ONeill on April 27, 2012, 10:38:39 AM
Halve the secondary school teachers can't even write right or speak right.
What are you going to with them after that? Quarter them? :D
Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.
O'Neill you forgot Applied Ict and Business studies ;)
Quote from: ONeill on April 27, 2012, 11:59:26 AM
Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.
I think your previous post should have read
halve half of.
Quote from: ziggy90 on April 27, 2012, 12:11:46 PM
Quote from: ONeill on April 27, 2012, 11:59:26 AM
Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.
I think your previous post should have read halve half of.
Aye. It should of.
Good ladeen. ;)
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 27, 2012, 12:16:54 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 27, 2012, 12:04:29 AM
In my opinion, none of the main parties in the North are willing to fully address the problems there are in education as they are mostly in either one of two camps - either scrap all grammars and keep all students together until 16 regardless, or keep things as they are, based on ideology and individual interest rather than putting education in the bigger context of personal and community development, employer needs and economic structuring.
I think you have the right idea. Education is just another weapon of the politician.
We do need serious change in education but we shouldn't be following failed comprehensive systems like those in the UK and RoI. There is a serious argument for returning to the system of the 50s when the tripartite system was introduced to meet the needs of the economy, industry and students' skills and aptitudes. We can look to the German's who put greater value on the technical and the engineer, their technical colleges feed the economic requirements of the country. Here we put too much value on the traditional professions. We have too many still looking to law, accountancy, medicine, etc as being the pinnacle of career achievement. None of these professions will drag this country into the future. We need to begin with a clean sheet for education planning which everyone can agree to buy into. We need to plan a new system which will put priority on literacy and numeracy and then give children at 14 the option to take equally recognised routes which meet their skills and aptitudes.
Unfortunately, this will never happen, there are too many vested interests in a small place like N.Ireland to allow the best to be done for our children.
Ahem!
Quote from: ONeill on April 27, 2012, 11:59:26 AM
Maybe they should be. The least parents can ask for is that little Johnny's teacher has a good grasp of grammar and punctuation. The teachers produced now have serious deficiencies in that regard. In a secondary school that can be hidden as the students and teachers wouldn't notice. In grammar schools you'd be moved 'sideways' into something like Media Studies, PE or Home Economics.
Where have these teachers come from?
The current selection process allows for a thick child to be coached to get a C-D grade, which most grammars schools are happy to accept to boost their numbers.
These thick children struggle to keep up with the work being set by these super grammar school teachers (who are unable to develop any below average student) and the child will leave with pretty mediocre A Levels in some of the "less traditional" subjects. (Perhaps only progressing to A Levels because of their value to the MacCrory team)
These results will rule them out of progresing to study to join an "elite" profession as law or medicine but they will pursue a degree in some pointless subject just to say they're at university. (Some GAA ability will probably get them into their chosen college)
They'll graduate with a 3 or 2:2 but with no qualifications or skills that are of use to most potential employers.
What happens them now that they've reached the end of this education process started by the delusions of their parents?
Simple - They go to England to do a PGCE and return a year later to a teaching job. (GAA ability will probably mean this will be in the perceived elite profession of grammar school teacher)
All teachers, even those with a specialism in Sums or Computers, should be made to complete an essay before the interview. 'What I Did Last Summer' or something like that should be enough to gauge competence. It might end up with ICT being taught by a more literate yet less Windows-savvy teacher but what the hell.
Oh there are a few elite educational snobs on this thread :o
Quote'What I Did Last Summer' or something like that should be enough to gauge competence.
What if they spent the summer installing a triple boot of 64 bit Linux, WIndows server and Mac X Lion on a homemade quad processor system? Would they still be literate?
QuoteOh there are a few elite educational snobs on this thread
or
Oh, there are a few educational snobs in this thread.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 27, 2012, 01:20:05 PM
Quote'What I Did Last Summer' or something like that should be enough to gauge competence.
What if they spent the summer installing a triple boot of 64 bit Linux, WIndows server and Mac X Lion on a homemade quad processor system? Would they still be literate?
The whole effin summer?
Some of the worst teachers also teach in Grammar Schools and some of the most inept, incompetent teachers I have ever met worked/work in Grammar Schools. That's not even taking in the lazy, drunken and mentally unbalanced members of staff.
The elitist arrogance being shown on this tread epitomises all that is sad in our education system. Some posters have dropped in my estimation with silly generalisations and nasty comments.
I think a lot of posters do not have children at a Grammar School yet.
Quote from: Sandino on April 27, 2012, 02:22:55 PM
Some of the worst teachers also teach in Grammar Schools and some of the most inept, incompetent teachers I have ever met worked/work in Grammar Schools. That's not even taking in the lazy, drunken and mentally unbalanced members of staff.
The elitist arrogance being shown on this tread epitomises all that is sad in our education system. Some posters have dropped in my estimation with silly generalisations and nasty comments.
I think a lot of posters do not have children at a Grammar School yet.
Think you're being a bit hard on O'Neill there. His comments seem to be a piss take - it's just not as obvious when he's not being Olly.
Quote from: Larry Duff on April 27, 2012, 12:54:22 PM
Simple - They go to England to do a PGCE and return a year later to a teaching job. (GAA ability will probably mean this will be in the perceived elite profession of grammar school teacher)
Why do you use the word perceived? You have yet to produce any evidence to disprove ONeill's theory.
Quote from: Sandino on April 27, 2012, 02:22:55 PM
Some of the worst teachers also teach in Grammar Schools and some of the most inept, incompetent teachers I have ever met worked/work in Grammar Schools. That's not even taking in the lazy, drunken and mentally unbalanced members of staff.
The elitist arrogance being shown on this tread epitomises all that is sad in our education system. Some posters have dropped in my estimation with silly generalisations and nasty comments.
I think a lot of posters do not have children at a Grammar School yet.
I assume you failed your O Levels. Secondary schools are full of teachers who are unemployable in any other sector. The majority, as someone stated, have 2:2s or even worse. There's no way I'd send my son or daughter to a secondary school to be taught by someone who was probably a secondary school pupil a few years ago. I acknowledge there may be some relatively educated secondary school teachers who could cut the mustard in a grammar. They probably got a job there first and just didn't want to apply out.
In fact, I know a very well known secondary school where half the staff are ex-pupils. Talk about the blind leading the blind.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 27, 2012, 03:01:36 PM
Quote from: Larry Duff on April 27, 2012, 12:54:22 PM
Simple - They go to England to do a PGCE and return a year later to a teaching job. (GAA ability will probably mean this will be in the perceived elite profession of grammar school teacher)
Why do you use the word perceived? You have yet to produce any evidence to disprove ONeill's theory.
O'Neills theory was that grammar school teachers are best. That's definitely debatable but I think its obvious that it certainly isn't an elite profession.
Grammar school teachers are dealing with a more able and more motivated class of pupil and can get reasonable outcomes without any great pedagogy.
There is a broader problem in society that teaching is not especially valued and standards have declined in many cases.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 27, 2012, 03:40:38 PM
Grammar school teachers are dealing with a more able and more motivated class of pupil and can get reasonable outcomes without any great pedagogy.
There is a broader problem in society that teaching is not especially valued and standards have declined in many cases.
Agree with most of that with the exception that teaching is not valued by society, in fact I think the teaching profession is held in far too high a regard. If someone possess a high level of expertise in their chosen field then they will use this skill to create or manage a profitable enterprise which will in turn benefit others and help boost the economy. However if they only have a basic theoretic knowledge of the subject and lack the ability or drive to make something of this knowledge then they become a teacher.
O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.
O'Neill's theory, if it indeed deserves that title, is horseshit. Plain and simple.
There is little correlation between academic ability and the ability to teach. This 2.1 2.2 nonsense is not relevant.
Some of the brightest minds and most able people in society couldn't teach a dog to shit. The ability to understand a concept and take it further and expand it isn't the same ability as being able to convey a basic concept in a way children can understand.
Anything, I think it's a wind-up anyway as there's so many flaws in the 'theory'.
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 27, 2012, 05:05:16 PM
Do you not think that there has been a determined run down of the vocational football sector by active recruitment of schools to the colleges sector following the last review of the organisation of schools and college football?
Do you think there should be a distinct vocational football sector? If so, why?
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 27, 2012, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Sandino on April 27, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.
Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.
Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.
Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 27, 2012, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: sheamy on April 27, 2012, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 27, 2012, 05:05:16 PM
Do you not think that there has been a determined run down of the vocational football sector by active recruitment of schools to the colleges sector following the last review of the organisation of schools and college football?
Do you think there should be a distinct vocational football sector? If so, why?
I have no strong feelings either way but there has always been a frosty relationship between the sectors and there appears to have been a determination to undermine the vocational sector by attracting schools away from it to the colleges.
If there has been then it has to stop. I took that for Burns' article although it has been kinda lost with the silliness on here.
With hindsight, the grammars (and secondarys) in the North have at least allowed many - especially nationalists - to advance through the class system and better themselves - helped of course by free education etc. However, when you see how the class system in the 26 Counties has been allowed to thrive through the two-tied education system, there really is a case to be answered. Old school ties etc - just look at the make-up of the Irish rugby team (no comprehensive boys here!). The rich and poor gap which sees a virtual apartheid in the Republic is so evident in politics, sport and business. The old notion of the PIG-OWNING class of Irish Catholic society looking after its own thrives in education. It is as blantant as the state school sector in the North.. I think it was 1971 that Belfast Model (ie the Shankill Road pupils) won the rugby schools cup and the whole "establishment"gasped in horror. Fair play to Jarlath - loved the line about the "rich and the thick" always having a way into grammars through money!! - Such people always stood out a mile..
Quote from: Hurler on the Bitch on April 27, 2012, 10:09:38 PM
With hindsight, the grammars (and secondarys) in the North have at least allowed many - especially nationalists - to advance through the class system and better themselves - helped of course by free education etc. However, when you see how the class system in the 26 Counties has been allowed to thrive through the two-tied education system, there really is a case to be answered. Old school ties etc - just look at the make-up of the Irish rugby team (no comprehensive boys here!). The rich and poor gap which sees a virtual apartheid in the Republic is so evident in politics, sport and business. The old notion of the PIG-OWNING class of Irish Catholic society looking after its own thrives in education. It is as blantant as the state school sector in the North.. I think it was 1971 that Belfast Model (ie the Shankill Road pupils) won the rugby schools cup and the whole "establishment"gasped in horror. Fair play to Jarlath - loved the line about the "rich and the thick" always having a way into grammars through money!! - Such people always stood out a mile..
You're obsessed with owning pigs.
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 27, 2012, 10:04:42 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 27, 2012, 09:55:05 PM
Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.
Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.
Is egomania a prerequisite to becoming a principal or is it an added bonus or developed on the job or part of the PQH qualification?
You appear to have misunderstood. One who devotes his / her life to teaching in a grammar, yet moves to a secondary as principal is unlikely to have undergone a Damascus-like conversion to non-selective education. Such an individual is most likely to be motivated by financial and / or egotistical reasons.
Still, such an individual will be infinitely more capable than his / her underlings.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 27, 2012, 09:55:05 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 27, 2012, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Sandino on April 27, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.
Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.
Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.
Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.
What?? I'm only qualified a couple of years, and have worked in both grammar and secondary so i'm sure i have a better idea than most. Little difference in terms of teaching. Grammar schools have no way of picking up the so called best teachers. When most teachers graduate 22-24 out of college, it's only when they then go on to work in a school over the next 3-4 years that they become either the great teacher they are, or a brutal teacher. Have seen some serious dungbag teachers, people who are in for all the wrong reasons, and these people are in both sectors. But there is also a lot more brilliant teachers in both sectors.
Grammar teachers are lucky that they generally have less problems to deal with though
Quote from: Orchardman on April 27, 2012, 11:32:49 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 27, 2012, 09:55:05 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 27, 2012, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Sandino on April 27, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.
Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.
Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.
Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.
What?? I'm only qualified a couple of years, and have worked in both grammar and secondary so i'm sure i have a better idea than most. Little difference in terms of teaching. Grammar schools have no way of picking up the so called best teachers. When most teachers graduate 22-24 out of college, it's only when they then go on to work in a school over the next 3-4 years that they become either the great teacher they are, or a brutal teacher. Have seen some serious dungbag teachers, people who are in for all the wrong reasons, and these people are in both sectors. But there is also a lot more brilliant teachers in both sectors.
Grammar teachers are lucky that they generally have less problems to deal with though
Two simple questions then expert.
You are offered two permanent jobs, one in a grammar school, one in a secondary.
Which do you choose?
Pourquoi?
QED
Quick question.
How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 28, 2012, 12:15:02 AM
Quote from: Orchardman on April 27, 2012, 11:32:49 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on April 27, 2012, 09:55:05 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on April 27, 2012, 04:33:37 PM
Quote from: Sandino on April 27, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
O'Neill I don't know why you have resorted to personal abuse, I simpily feel that the notion that just because a teacher is well qualified thats makes them a good teacher is incorrect.
Does a teacher who moves from teaching in a Grammar school to a secondary school suddenly become less good of a teacher, and conversely does a secondary school teacher taking up a post in a Grammar school suddenly become a better teacher? I know teachers who fit either account.
Only way a teacher will move from grammar to secondary is if the egomaniac is appointed principal.
Movement from secondary to grammar doesn't happen. Nor should it.
What?? I'm only qualified a couple of years, and have worked in both grammar and secondary so i'm sure i have a better idea than most. Little difference in terms of teaching. Grammar schools have no way of picking up the so called best teachers. When most teachers graduate 22-24 out of college, it's only when they then go on to work in a school over the next 3-4 years that they become either the great teacher they are, or a brutal teacher. Have seen some serious dungbag teachers, people who are in for all the wrong reasons, and these people are in both sectors. But there is also a lot more brilliant teachers in both sectors.
Grammar teachers are lucky that they generally have less problems to deal with though
Two simple questions then expert.
You are offered two permanent jobs, one in a grammar school, one in a secondary.
Which do you choose?
Pourquoi?
QED
Hand on heart, from the one's I have experienced, i'd choose the secondary. I'm sure if there was one of each from other schools throughout the country, i'd maybe choose grammar, but that proves the value of not making general sweeping statements, like some people claimed O'Neill did ( though i'm sure he was only on the wind up)
By the way, i'm no expert, for sure there are people here who seem to know alot more about their grammar schools and systems than I do. But having been in both within the last 2 years I can offer a current view from both. But again, every school if different
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2012, 12:31:02 AM
Quick question.
How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?
Good question, i don't have any kids yet. I know a lot of secondary teachers wilh their children at the same school, handy i suppose. But not ideal to be teaching them yourself. Also know plenty who have sent them to local grammar, 50/50 i guess
Christ lads, it was an article by Jarlath Burns. Bad enough taking it seriously when it is football related, but when its not??!!
Quote from: haranguerer on April 28, 2012, 07:27:50 AM
Christ lads, it was an article by Jarlath Burns. Bad enough taking it seriously when it is football related, but when its not??!!
I know lad, but since the 2nd page it seems to have moved mostly on to a grammar/ secondary debate and standard of teaching. Maybe we should get back to the gaa. As someone said, the vocational schools was never that strong in armagh, and since bessbrook and cross moved to the colleges around 5 years ago, it's really weak now. Eventually the best thing probably is to combine them all, there already is A,B,and C divisions in the colleges
Quote from: Take Your Points on April 28, 2012, 10:30:49 AM
Quote from: Orchardman on April 28, 2012, 12:39:26 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2012, 12:31:02 AM
Quick question.
How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?
Good question, i don't have any kids yet. I know a lot of secondary teachers wilh their children at the same school, handy i suppose. But not ideal to be teaching them yourself. Also know plenty who have sent them to local grammar, 50/50 i guess
50/50? Surely not as many as that?
I'm probably wrong about that alright, it was just a figure of the top of my head from other teachers I know with kids.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2012, 12:31:02 AM
Quick question.
How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?
I'd imagine all, as long as the child was capable. Grammars = better subjects, better teachers, better etiquette. I can't imagine why anyone would want their child doing a Media Studies A Level and heading off to university thinking they can do well.
Probably better manners and social competence so favourite for the job at KFC.
I think I've run my course here.
The lads from St Joseph's cannot play for St Paul's as far as I know. I never mentioned anything about the education of these lads. The are entitled to study where they want but the are being used by St Paul's for footballling purposes when the likes of Burns knows full well that they are not eligible to play for them.
Yet them have played them in the past, named them in programmes etc. Very dangerous
Schools who revel in their 'academic ethos', suddenly going all pastoral and allowing boys from local secondaries with two GCSEs in to do A Levels. (as long as they can play football, who cares if they end up with three U grades) Meanwhile, ordinary lads are told their five GCSE's aren't good enough for a place in Upper Sixth.
If this happened - why don't the teachers/parents kick up a fuss?
Where did Mr. Burns send the wanes out of interest? I'd hazard a guess at the cream of Newry's grammar system.
Wrong again, all his kids either went to or are currently at secondary schools. I love the way you boys never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I love even more the way you are now trying to move the personal attacks onto his children
Quote from: ONeill on April 28, 2012, 08:24:12 PM
Schools who revel in their 'academic ethos', suddenly going all pastoral and allowing boys from local secondaries with two GCSEs in to do A Levels. (as long as they can play football, who cares if they end up with three U grades) Meanwhile, ordinary lads are told their five GCSE's aren't good enough for a place in Upper Sixth.
If this happened - why don't the teachers/parents kick up a fuss?
St Pats in Armagh was deadly for this in my era, think they pretty much take anybody for A Levels now anyway and have done for a while.
If my son was denied a place in a grammar because of GSCE results and I knew that someone with worse GCSE results got a place I'd campaign naked for 6 months.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 28, 2012, 08:56:04 PM
Wrong again, all his kids either went to or are currently at secondary schools. I love the way you boys never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I love even more the way you are now trying to move the personal attacks onto his children
Who is attacking his children ?
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 28, 2012, 08:48:48 PM
Where did Mr. Burns send the wanes out of interest? I'd hazard a guess at the cream of Newry's grammar system.
Quote from: Minder on April 28, 2012, 09:16:50 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 28, 2012, 08:56:04 PM
Wrong again, all his kids either went to or are currently at secondary schools. I love the way you boys never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I love even more the way you are now trying to move the personal attacks onto his children
Who is attacking his children ?
Aside from being a confused and boring piece, the fact is that as VP of a comprehensive school, it's not possible for Burns to be seen as a voice of reason here.
I like Jarlath. But this article is a paranoid mess.
There is nothing in a GAA school that lifts school spirit more than the MacRory team doing well. Of course any school is going to bend the rules for players who aren't as academically strong. It is actually for the greater good of the school and not some selfish plot. Of the same note, I've absolutely no doubt that elite sports players in every school - including St Paul's - get preferential treatment. They can miss classes, take days off without investigation. They find it harder to get suspended and/or expelled.
Personally I don't believe St Colmans or the Abbey have som mad recruitment drive in place for primary school stars. Getting giant kids in first year doesn't matter a damn come MacRory time.
I've no doubt that good ones are kept at all costs. And I've no doubt that a child having a "St Colman's lineage" is impressed upon them - but in all likelihood from their fathers and grandfathers before any football coaches ever get a chance.
Paranoid like a Shinner, unfortunately.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 28, 2012, 09:27:24 PM
Aside from being a confused and boring piece, the fact is that as VP of a comprehensive school, it's not possible for Burns to be seen as a voice of reason here.
I like Jarlath. But this article is a paranoid mess.
There is nothing in a GAA school that lifts school spirit more than the MacRory team doing well. Of course any school is going to bend the rules for players who aren't as academically strong. It is actually for the greater good of the school and not some selfish plot. Of the same note, I've absolutely no doubt that elite sports players in every school - including St Paul's - get preferential treatment. They can miss classes, take days off without investigation. They find it harder to get suspended and/or expelled.
Personally I don't believe St Colmans or the Abbey have som mad recruitment drive in place for primary school stars. Getting giant kids in first year doesn't matter a damn come MacRory time.
I've no doubt that good ones are kept at all costs. And I've no doubt that a child having a "St Colman's lineage" is impressed upon them - but in all likelihood from their fathers and grandfathers before any football coaches ever get a chance.
Paranoid like a Shinner, unfortunately.
Couldn't agree more
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on April 28, 2012, 12:31:02 AM
Quick question.
How many secondary school teachers on here, have kids that go to Grammar schools?
None that I am aware. But then I only know three. What point are you trying to make?
Ask the question again without the words "on here," in it. That might help your case.
Quote from: thewobbler on April 28, 2012, 09:27:24 PM
Aside from being a confused and boring piece, the fact is that as VP of a comprehensive school, it's not possible for Burns to be seen as a voice of reason here.
I like Jarlath. But this article is a paranoid mess.
There is nothing in a GAA school that lifts school spirit more than the MacRory team doing well. Of course any school is going to bend the rules for players who aren't as academically strong. It is actually for the greater good of the school and not some selfish plot. Of the same note, I've absolutely no doubt that elite sports players in every school - including St Paul's - get preferential treatment. They can miss classes, take days off without investigation. They find it harder to get suspended and/or expelled.
Personally I don't believe St Colmans or the Abbey have som mad recruitment drive in place for primary school stars. Getting giant kids in first year doesn't matter a damn come MacRory time.
I've no doubt that good ones are kept at all costs. And I've no doubt that a child having a "St Colman's lineage" is impressed upon them - but in all likelihood from their fathers and grandfathers before any football coaches ever get a chance.
Paranoid like a Shinner, unfortunately.
The cousins kids in the town go to St Ronan's and they get PE classes from the Abbey PE teachers, I know they are next door. Not sure about other schools in the town or what St Colman's do for schools close to them
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 28, 2012, 09:22:02 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 28, 2012, 08:48:48 PM
Where did Mr. Burns send the wanes out of interest? I'd hazard a guess at the cream of Newry's grammar system.
Quote from: Minder on April 28, 2012, 09:16:50 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 28, 2012, 08:56:04 PM
Wrong again, all his kids either went to or are currently at secondary schools. I love the way you boys never let the truth get in the way of a good story. I love even more the way you are now trying to move the personal attacks onto his children
Who is attacking his children ?
Is that not "attacking" Burns as opposed to his children? I would have thought he decides where he sends his children.
You have to admit that Burns is a hardy fellow. There he is in Croke Park in the suit when everyone else is wearing a woolly hat and anorak!
Mmm, a few familiar looking posts in this thread. Do I detect the return of 5ive Times to the Board
Quote from: Tony Baloney on April 28, 2012, 08:48:48 PM
Where did Mr. Burns send the wanes out of interest? I'd hazard a guess at the cream of Newry's grammar system.
Well his son was on the bessbrook team that won the all ireland last month, is that enough for u baloney
Quote from: Line Ball on April 28, 2012, 07:46:12 PM
The lads from St Joseph's cannot play for St Paul's as far as I know. I never mentioned anything about the education of these lads. The are entitled to study where they want but the are being used by St Paul's for footballling purposes when the likes of Burns knows full well that they are not eligible to play for them.
Yet them have played them in the past, named them in programmes etc. Very dangerous
What riddles are u on about, they don't play for the school team, how are they being used?
Quote from: thewobbler on April 28, 2012, 09:27:24 PM
Personally I don't believe St Colmans or the Abbey have som mad recruitment drive in place for primary school stars. Getting giant kids in first year doesn't matter a damn come MacRory time.
One of our boys went to an open night in the college a few years back, he was told in no uncertain terms by an ex Down manager that there was a place at the school for him regardless of his 11 plus result.
I find it hard to believe that a teacher would say such a thing and thereby compromise the school should there be an appeal
No need for any appeal, he passed the 11 plus and played for the college.
What would have happened if your son hadn't passed and was refused a place, you would have possibly felt you'd have grounds for an appeal after what the teacher said, therefore I find it strange that he would have said it. Likewise what would have happened had someone else got wind of what he had said and taken a case if their son had got a higher grade than your lad and had got refused
Your life seems to be full of what ifs.
Indeed, like what if Gary Boyd ever found out who you are and sued you for what you posted about him on another thread. Indeed if I recall you were even daft enough to follow it up with a photo of him
Who?
I'll leave you guessing on that one because I don't want to keep this thread going. PM me if you want to know
Quote from: Agent Orange on April 29, 2012, 08:41:54 PM
No need for any appeal, he passed the 11 plus and played for the college.
And did he win anything with them?
He won the Louis Boyd cup, but refused to accept the trophy.
Quote from: Agent Orange on April 30, 2012, 11:34:39 PM
He won the Louis Boyd cup, but refused to accept the trophy.
So will that allow Louis to post hateful things about him on an internet forum in the same way that you did with his son?
I didnt post anything hateful about anyone. Gary is overbearing and annoying, but thanks for trawling back through my posts over the last 6 months. You are very easily offended.
Nothing hateful?? You listed him as a contender on the Top 10 Twits of 2011 and followed it up with a photo. I didn't need to trawl back because I remembered being shocked about it at the time. How would you like if someone did that to your son?
I am sure he has been called worse. What concern is it of yours?
I have no objection to academic selection - in fact i think it is much better than the comprehensive system.
With the comprehensive system, selection is based on money (In an indirect way of course, but the reality of it is that the weathly can buy or rent the houses next to the good schools, whereas the cheaper house are available next to the lower performing schools) - in an ideal world the comprehensive system works, as all schools are equal, but this is not the reality.
There will always be some form of selection, so In my opinion academic selection is by far the fairest. It also makes it easier for everyone to learn at the right pace.
A child at 11, who is clever, but from a poor family, living in some huge Belfast estate with unemployed parents, grandparents etc, passes his/her 11-plus and goes off the grammar school, this opens a lot of options, options they maybe never even knew existed. Had they went to the local school with a group of friends, would they have noticed the options?
I disagree with tuturing, and I think people that get their children tutured for the 11-plus are mad, yes it may get your child into grammar school, but what happens when they get there, they can't keep up with the work fall behind etc. This child would be far better suited to the secondary school and in the class which is streamed to their ability.
Quote from: Agent Orange on May 01, 2012, 12:06:45 AM
I am sure he has been called worse. What concern is it of yours?
I would doubt whether a star footballer that the cream of the grammar schools in Newry was throwing open its doors for, would ever be called anything like that either privately or, more importantly, in a public internet forum with a photo thrown in for good measure.
The concern for me is that I hate bullying in any shape make or form and that's what your post about young Boyd amounted to.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on May 01, 2012, 07:13:29 PM
The concern for me is that I hate bullying in any shape make or form and that's what your post about young Boyd amounted to.
Bullying, you really need to get out more, do you really class what I said about an over bearing salesman in a clothes shop as bullying? And young Boyd as you so nicely put it is actually a few years older then me. But before you answer maybe you should have a read through your own posts.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 01, 2008, 01:03:44 PM
Conor toffee nose Bradford and Seamus insincere t**t McKee.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on March 08, 2008, 08:52:07 PM
As far as I'm concerned the woman deserves a medal for staying with the pretentious cnut for so long
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on July 27, 2009, 10:22:41 PM
No harm to the bride but she's no looker. Mind you neither were any of the bridesmaids
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on May 01, 2009, 10:59:05 AM
I see Jade has a new book out. Gives new meaning to the term Ghost Writer. It's called My Battle Against Cancer. Now I don't want to spoil the ending but...
I could trawl through the rest of your posts, but the above quotes are only from your first few pages, I am sure there are more.
It isn't my fault your son didn't get in to the college. He obviously takes after his dad when it comes to intelligence. ;)
You really outdo yourself. Firstly every post you copied is about someone in the public eye and therefore fair game. Boyd, young or old is not. He's just an ordinary guy trying to run a business. Secondly, where did you take it that my son didn't get to the College?
You couldn't have chosen a more appropriate username.
This coming from a man who has publicly stated that Pete McGrath told him that his son was getting into St Colman's regardless of his 11+ result.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on May 04, 2012, 09:28:25 PM
This coming from a man who has publicly stated that Pete McGrath told him that his son was getting into St Colman's regardless of his 11+ result.
And where is the problem with that. He was an outstanding footballer, but as already stated he passed his 11+. Is there a part of that you don't understand?
My original remark was in response to thewobbler's comment that Grammar schools don't have a recruitment drive in place for primary schools. McGraths knowledge of my sons ability proves that they do, but thewobbler has a point that it doesn't really mater come MacRory Cup time, any physical advantage at age 11 is usually gone by the age of 16.
Quote from: Agent Orange on May 05, 2012, 04:25:42 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on May 04, 2012, 09:28:25 PM
This coming from a man who has publicly stated that Pete McGrath told him that his son was getting into St Colman's regardless of his 11+ result.
And where is the problem with that. He was an outstanding footballer, but as already stated he passed his 11+. Is there a part of that you don't understand?
My original remark was in response to thewobbler's comment that Grammar schools don't have a recruitment drive in place for primary schools. McGraths knowledge of my sons ability proves that they do, but thewobbler has a point that it doesn't really mater come MacRory Cup time, any physical advantage at age 11 is usually gone by the age of 16.
You stated that Pete had told you he was getting in regardless of his 11+ grade. It's not something that I'd have stated publicly. Indeed I'd be pretty sure that when Pete said it to you he wouldn't have expected you to be so indiscreet as to blurt it out on an Internet forum.
And another thing, in an earlier post you suggested that my son did not go to the College. I asked you for evidence as to how you reached this conclusion but you were unable to provide this. For your information I have 3 children the oldest boy passed the 11+ went to St Colman's, his father's alma mater, and his choice. He is now at University. The second, my daughter, also passed the 11+ and is at the Sacred Heart, her mother's alma mater and again her choice. The youngest also passed the 11+ and chose to go to a secondary school.
I have no desire to continue to feud with you. There is more to life
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on April 29, 2012, 09:43:10 PM
Indeed, like what if Gary Boyd ever found out who you are and sued you for what you posted about him on another thread. Indeed if I recall you were even daft enough to follow it up with a photo of him
https://www.facebook.com/pages/i-walk-the-other-way-when-black-curly-hair-dude-approaches-me-in-louis-boyd/332397567828
Me and 9622 others.
Whatever you think yourself
Almost an hour to reply? You are usually on the ball Dougal.