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http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1101/harneym.html

A woman in her late 20s has been arrested after Minister for Health Mary Harney was sprayed with paint in Dublin.


(http://img.rasset.ie/0003dcb9-314.jpg)

That is nothing compared to what will be thrown in 6-12 months time

Probably in a minority of one here but I feel very sorry for Mary Harney. An awful thing to do imo to any person.... esp a woman.
Expect alot of bile on this thread shortly.

Quote from: Canalman on November 01, 2010, 12:26:01 PM
Probably in a minority of one here but I feel very sorry for Mary Harney. An awful thing to do imo to any person.... esp a woman.
Expect alot of bile on this thread shortly.

i'd agree, but she has her 20 yrs done and has full ministerial and td pensions, so she should have resigned, runour was she was holding out for a european job - but they'll not be transferring anyone at the minute, not when it would trigger a by-election. 

(http://img.rasset.ie/0003dcc2-440.jpg)

Quote from: Homer on November 01, 2010, 12:32:30 PM
(http://img.rasset.ie/0003dcc2-440.jpg)

Scariest halloween outfit I've seen

I've heard it was Eirigi Councillor Louise Minihan.

That was an awful thing to do.

I hope the culprit is given 2 years community service, starting with removal of graffitti in Dublin. And I hope her hands melt with the paint stripper liquid.

This was an absolutely disgraceful act of thuggery. The woman that threw the paint at Mary Harney should be prosecuted and face gaol. All I can say about the thug that threw the paint is that a leopard doesn't change its spots.

I thought it was great. Laughed my arse off when I heard it. I think it will back fire though and she was a little foolish. It would have been much better if it was an ordinary Ballyfermot woman rather than a city cllr.

This type of protest disgusts me, it is effectively assault and says more about the character of the protestor IMO.

Invited guest, former SF councillor, member of Eirigí.  Stupid really and makes no point of note.  She would have been better to have a dossier of health issues that are facing her constituents and made a big noise about handing those over rather then throwing paint.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 01, 2010, 01:17:41 PM
This type of protest disgusts me, it is effectively assault and says more about the character of the protestor IMO.

It was a bit of paint FFS. I'm sure it was animal tested before hand to make sure she'd come to no harm.

The moral outrage at this is scary when you think of what Harney has done to health in this COuntry.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 01, 2010, 01:18:00 PM
Invited guest, former SF councillor, member of Eirigí.  Stupid really and makes no point of note.  She would have been better to have a dossier of health issues that are facing her constituents and made a big noise about handing those over rather then throwing paint.

10 years of dossiers and Harney still doesn't listen.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 01, 2010, 01:18:00 PM
Invited guest, former SF councillor, member of Eirigí.  Stupid really and makes no point of note.  She would have been better to have a dossier of health issues that are facing her constituents and made a big noise about handing those over rather then throwing paint.

But throwing things is probably her electoral platform.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 01, 2010, 01:17:41 PM
This type of protest disgusts me, it is effectively assault and says more about the character of the protestor IMO.

It was a bit of paint FFS. I'm sure it was animal tested before hand to make sure she'd come to no harm.

The moral outrage at this is scary when you think of what Harney has done to health in this COuntry.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 01, 2010, 01:18:00 PM
Invited guest, former SF councillor, member of Eirigí.  Stupid really and makes no point of note.  She would have been better to have a dossier of health issues that are facing her constituents and made a big noise about handing those over rather then throwing paint.

10 years of dossiers and Harney still doesn't listen.

This is not about what Mary Harney did, its what that Oink did. This story is about an assault on a woman, nothing more.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 01, 2010, 01:18:00 PM
Invited guest, former SF councillor, member of Eirigí.  Stupid really and makes no point of note.  She would have been better to have a dossier of health issues that are facing her constituents and made a big noise about handing those over rather then throwing paint.

10 years of dossiers and Harney still doesn't listen.

And throwing a pot of gloss will make her listen?  She is voted in and that is the choice of the people.  The only way to make a difference is to get a credible candidate against her or a credible electorate to make a better choice.  I give my 3 year old a slap if he throws paint on his sister ::)(or shoudl I say I send him to the naughty step :P)

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 01, 2010, 01:17:41 PM
This type of protest disgusts me, it is effectively assault and says more about the character of the protestor IMO.

It was a bit of paint FFS. I'm sure it was animal tested before hand to make sure she'd come to no harm.

The moral outrage at this is scary when you think of what Harney has done to health in this COuntry.

If you disagree with someone are you saying it is ok to attack them with paint or anything else you see fit?
I certainly do not agree with all the Government has done for the HSE but do you really think this advances any protest or cause?  I am 100% certain more sympathy will rest with Harney than the protestor.

anyone else think harney has lost a lot of weight?

Quote from: Banana Man on November 01, 2010, 01:34:06 PM
anyone else think harney has lost a lot of weight?

The paint ruins the photos. Only for that she would have been moved into the lovely ladies thread before laoislad could say debbie magee.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 01, 2010, 01:26:37 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 01:20:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on November 01, 2010, 01:17:41 PM
This type of protest disgusts me, it is effectively assault and says more about the character of the protestor IMO.

It was a bit of paint FFS. I'm sure it was animal tested before hand to make sure she'd come to no harm.

The moral outrage at this is scary when you think of what Harney has done to health in this COuntry.

If you disagree with someone are you saying it is ok to attack them with paint or anything else you see fit?
I certainly do not agree with all the Government has done for the HSE but do you really think this advances any protest or cause?  I am 100% certain more sympathy will rest with Harney than the protestor.

This act only means people like me who thinks Mary Harney has been complicit in the downfall of Ireland has sympathy for her.

Its out of line but Harney is a prime example of the complete failure of our system od democracy. A person with little or no mandate basically running down the public health system and introducing private hospitals (a policy which would have little support if it were ever discussed). She is basically an independent TD with control of on of if not the largest budgets in the State. It is lunacy and she should have been removed or had the decency to resign long ago.

I guess in the face of "democracy" such as this some people get angry and go ott. She's lucky she's not in France.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 01, 2010, 01:25:44 PM
And throwing a pot of gloss will make her listen?  She is voted in and that is the choice of the people.  The only way to make a difference is to get a credible candidate against her or a credible electorate to make a better choice.  I give my 3 year old a slap if he throws paint on his sister ::)(or shoudl I say I send him to the naughty step :P)

It was a protest and it was harmless. Maybe she should be more like Greece and protest through riots which end up with people dead. It was a bit of paint and it was harmless the big picture is what the protest was about.

We can't get a credible candidate against her as she is part of a Government denying an election by not holding the by elections. She is part of a Government who are spending tax payers money on a court case to deny us an election.

If his sister was being a wee bitch I'd caution her too :o

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 01, 2010, 01:50:49 PM

This act only means people like me who thinks Mary Harney has been complicit in the downfall of Ireland has sympathy for her.

You are seriously messed up. How could you sympathise for someone complicit in the down fall of Ireland because someone through paint over her. That's mad. Go and spend a few days on a trolley in A&E and think about Harney jet setting across the world at your expense and then picture yourself throwing paint over her.

Being "debated" on Whingline at the moment - Lord Jaysus how do people listen to such shite - How much is the bould Joe taking home in salary I wonder??

Quote from: Declan on November 01, 2010, 02:20:09 PM
Being "debated" on Whingline at the moment - Lord Jaysus how do people listen to such shite - How much is the bould Joe taking home in salary I wonder??

I was listening to it and had to turn it off.  There has been 5 Mary O'Rouke variations on already.

Had to laugh at Joe being outraged at this action. I would love to know what Joe thinks James Connelly would have done in the same situation. It would have been a lot more dangerous than a drop of paint that's for sure.

people should have been firing paint en masse many months ago.

a lick of paint is completely justified for the state the country will be in. Folks think things are bad now, they'll only get a lot worse

Jaysus you'd think she was shot. Some lads on this site either feel the need to have an opinion on absolutely everything or else genuinely are very easily outraged!

Quote from: Nally Stand on November 01, 2010, 02:25:55 PM
Jaysus you'd think she was shot. Some lads on this site either feel the need to have an opinion on absolutely everything or else genuinely are very easily outraged!

Some people on here feel they need to defend physical violence at every turn.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 02:13:24 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 01, 2010, 01:25:44 PM
And throwing a pot of gloss will make her listen?  She is voted in and that is the choice of the people.  The only way to make a difference is to get a credible candidate against her or a credible electorate to make a better choice.  I give my 3 year old a slap if he throws paint on his sister ::)(or shoudl I say I send him to the naughty step :P)

It was a protest and it was harmless. Maybe she should be more like Greece and protest through riots which end up with people dead. It was a bit of paint and it was harmless the big picture is what the protest was about.

We can't get a credible candidate against her as she is part of a Government denying an election by not holding the by elections. She is part of a Government who are spending tax payers money on a court case to deny us an election.

If his sister was being a wee bitch I'd caution her too :o

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 01, 2010, 01:50:49 PM

This act only means people like me who thinks Mary Harney has been complicit in the downfall of Ireland has sympathy for her.

You are seriously messed up. How could you sympathise for someone complicit in the down fall of Ireland because someone through paint over her. That's mad. Go and spend a few days on a trolley in A&E and think about Harney jet setting across the world at your expense and then picture yourself throwing paint over her.

This has nothing to do with the Health Service, this is a report on an assault.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 01, 2010, 02:31:58 PM

This has nothing to do with the Health Service, this is a report on an assault.

And I suppose throwing a shoe at Bush had nothing to do with Iraq?
Seriouly, have you nothing real to say?

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 02:35:52 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 01, 2010, 02:31:58 PM

This has nothing to do with the Health Service, this is a report on an assault.

And I suppose throwing a shoe at Bush had nothing to do with Iraq?
Seriouly, have you nothing real to say?

Listen Zapatista, all those other people protesting where trying to draw attention to problems in the Health Service, one Muppet hijacks the protest by an act of thuggery and now the story is the assault not the health service, if you cannot see this I'm very sorry.

QuoteHow much is the bould Joe taking home in salary I wonder??

From what I can gather Joe Duffy earned €408,889 in 2008 - Now there's another reason to f**k paint over someone as well :o

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 01, 2010, 02:41:52 PM

Listen Zapatista, all those other people protesting where trying to draw attention to problems in the Health Service, one Muppet hijacks the protest by an act of thuggery and now the story is the assault not the health service, if you cannot see this I'm very sorry.

Which is a direct result of people like you and Joe Duffy who deliberately miss the point. I don't question that Minihan wanted to make a name for herself but rather than ignore her and address the issue of Health and Mary Harney you make it about Minihan being a thug and Joe Duffy makes it about her support for the IRA. Don't blame me for you choosing to avoid the real issue. I said earlier that it would have been much better if it was done by an everyday lady from Bally fermot. I didn't say this as I have anything against Minihan but because the fact that it was Minihan means you and Joe Duffy can deflect it easier.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 01, 2010, 02:28:57 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on November 01, 2010, 02:25:55 PM
Jaysus you'd think she was shot. Some lads on this site either feel the need to have an opinion on absolutely everything or else genuinely are very easily outraged!

Some people on here feel they need to defend physical violence at every turn.

Like who?
Personally, I only defend physical violence where ever I believe it's use is justified and where no alternative is viable. Your hero Michael Collins would have held the same opinion about himself.

QuoteQuote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on Today at 02:28:57 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on Today at 02:25:55 PM
Jaysus you'd think she was shot. Some lads on this site either feel the need to have an opinion on absolutely everything or else genuinely are very easily outraged!


Some people on here feel they need to defend physical violence at every turn.


Like who?
Personally, I only defend physical violence where ever I believe it's use is justified and where no alternative is viable. Your hero Michael Collins would have held the same opinion about himself.

Good point Nally, the FG lads are quick to forget their hero has blood on his hands as much as the next 'freedom fighter'.

As Zap says if you lay on a trolley for a few days with a broken bone or two you would start to think differently, i didn't hear the radio programme but based on what has been said regarding it, it's clear they are dragging up the woman's past and trying to deflect it onto the rogue rebels from the north.

It's time commentators and other political parties/persuaions in the south took stock and looked at what happened in an objective way an not from the basis of tribal 26 county civil war political groupings.

I don't know who did it but I think its about time someone did something. There is a hardly a worse example of whats wrong with politicians in this country than Harney. Her PD outlook has resulted in the light touch legislation that has fucked up the country and she is now presiding over the destruction of the health service. She is 20 stone and is minister for health - a real example to us all. She used state helicopters to fly to Leitrim to open a friends shop. She wined and dined and pampered herself on FAS junckets to the states. If she were in France there'd be a grenade thrown at her so she can count herself lucky. Maybe these politicians need to understand that their actions and their mismanagement has consequences and failing an election being available to express those consequences maybe a can of paint is the next best thing.

well said myles

Quote from: Disillusioned on November 01, 2010, 05:44:58 PM
I wonder how some of our posters would react if an enraged parent ran out and fired paint all over the Minister of Education in N.Ireland at one of her many visits to open yet another Irish Medium school and claim it was because of the mess she is making of the education system in OWC.  After all, her decisions are taken arbitrarily without reference to cabinet government and based purely on her own agenda. Much the same as Ms Harney or Sammy Wilson or Alex Attwood.

Lots of outrage and tears is my guess.  The minister in the north deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint for what she has done

I don't know, I don't like it but only because she's a woman. 

I must say I find the level of glee at a pathetic act of thuggery somewhat saddening.

Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 01, 2010, 08:01:09 PM
I don't know, I don't like it but only because she's a woman.

Pints - I don't know where you reside but if you saw what is going on in the health service down here it would shock you. I have had 2 recent examples and have heard a lot worse from others. My wifes uncle, a man in his 80's with a heart condition went to Sligo with pains in his chest. He spent 48 hours on a trolley in a corridor before getting the scan he needed.

When my wife had a baby in Castlebar hospital 8 months ago I had to go out to the car to get some bits and pieces. At night you exit through A&E where I found about 20 people on trolleys in a corridor, so many I could not get passed them at 4am without banging of the trolley and disturbing the people on them.

My uncle had a extremely serious operation for cancer a few years ago. He had a lung removed. There was also the start of a cancer in his liver but the doctors were afraid to operate on him as he was too weak. Finally the note comes through to go for the operation. You can imagine the worry for the family. The day before the operation he rings the hospital to see what he should bring with him and they tell him, at 12 hours notice, his operation was cancelled. He wouldn't have found out until he arrived at the hospital only he called. And why so? Because the girl who writes the cancellation letters was on holidays!

The health system here is a mess and an outrage and people like Harney are the cause. She spends her time organising reviews and setting up sub groups and teams as a buffer between her and the ground so she can distance herself from what is happening. She hasn't the balls to take on the unions and she hasn't the balls to offer leadership. She is allowed to preside over one of the biggest drains on the countries finances and her only answer is to farm out care to private companies.

As I said, she is lucky she only got a bit of paint on her.

I appreciate that she's a bollocks Myles and making a mess of things but there's better ways of dealing with that than throwing paint at her.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 01, 2010, 08:22:55 PM
I appreciate that she's a bollocks Myles and making a mess of things but there's better ways of dealing with that than throwing paint at her.

Like?

This country needs a revolution. There are too many idiots out there voting along family lines. In Cavan we have Brendan Smith TD and minister for agriculture. I can tell you the pigs in the county have more brains than him. A yes man and a FF man before an Irish man. He'll get 10,000 votes at the next election and romp home. In Ireland we don't get angry anymore. We go to a restaurant and get shit food and tell the waiter it was lovely. We need anger to get something done. This country is bankrupt and the same people that wrecked it are still in power and refuse to allow the people even speak. The same bankers run the same banks that have destroyed the country for me and you and our children. And people on here are going on about having class. f**k class. Mary Harney wants her fat hole kicked out of our dail and a load of others with her.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 01, 2010, 08:29:28 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 01, 2010, 08:22:55 PM
I appreciate that she's a bollocks Myles and making a mess of things but there's better ways of dealing with that than throwing paint at her.

Like?

This country needs a revolution. There are too many idiots out there voting along family lines. In Cavan we have Brendan Smith TD and minister for agriculture. I can tell you the pigs in the county have more brains than him. A yes man and a FF man before an Irish man. He'll get 10,000 votes at the next election and romp home. In Ireland we don't get angry anymore. We go to a restaurant and get shit food and tell the waiter it was lovely. We need anger to get something done. This country is bankrupt and the same people that wrecked it are still in power and refuse to allow the people even speak. The same bankers run the same banks that have destroyed the country for me and you and our children. And people on here are going on about having class. f**k class. Mary Harney wants her fat hole kicked out of our dail and a load of others with her.

Like not keep voting for the same numpties?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:16:28 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Given that you approve of her actions, just not her target, its a little hypocrtical to express your disgust too vehemently.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 01, 2010, 08:29:28 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 01, 2010, 08:22:55 PM
I appreciate that she's a bollocks Myles and making a mess of things but there's better ways of dealing with that than throwing paint at her.

Like?

This country needs a revolution. There are too many idiots out there voting along family lines. In Cavan we have Brendan Smith TD and minister for agriculture. I can tell you the pigs in the county have more brains than him. A yes man and a FF man before an Irish man. He'll get 10,000 votes at the next election and romp home. In Ireland we don't get angry anymore. We go to a restaurant and get shit food and tell the waiter it was lovely. We need anger to get something done. This country is bankrupt and the same people that wrecked it are still in power and refuse to allow the people even speak. The same bankers run the same banks that have destroyed the country for me and you and our children. And people on here are going on about having class. f**k class. Mary Harney wants her fat hole kicked out of our dail and a load of others with her.

I agree, it's a disgrace but stop voting for the dickheads, get out on the streets, look at France.
In the report on RTE it said that yer woman who threw the paint was part of a protest of 20 people, 20!!!! ffs

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 05:52:44 PM

Quote from: Disillusioned on November 01, 2010, 05:44:58 PM
I wonder how some of our posters would react if an enraged parent ran out and fired paint all over the Minister of Education in N.Ireland at one of her many visits to open yet another Irish Medium school and claim it was because of the mess she is making of the education system in OWC.  After all, her decisions are taken arbitrarily without reference to cabinet government and based purely on her own agenda. Much the same as Ms Harney or Sammy Wilson or Alex Attwood.

Lots of outrage and tears is my guess.  The minister in the north deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint for what she has done

Aren't you a pacifist and former potential priest?

The silly good for nothing bitch deserves alot worse than that and some of her Chroney friends in the Dail should get similar treatment for taking hard working peoples' money for sitting on their fat arses doing fcuk all

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:16:28 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Given that you approve of her actions, just not her target, its a little hypocrtical to express your disgust too vehemently.

I didn't say I approved of her actions, did I?

Disillusioned posed a question.  I answered it.  FWIW, I think her actions were typical of a coward, given her CV it doesn't surprise me one bit she did it.

Quote from: sammymaguire on November 01, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
The silly good for nothing bitch deserves alot worse than that and some of her Chroney friends in the Dail should get similar treatment for taking hard working peoples' money for sitting on their fat arses doing fcuk all

Do you honestly believe that, particularly the bit in bold?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:53:32 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:16:28 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Given that you approve of her actions, just not her target, its a little hypocrtical to express your disgust too vehemently.

I didn't say I approved of her actions, did I?

Disillusioned posed a question.  I answered it.  FWIW, I think her actions were typical of a coward, given her CV it doesn't surprise me one bit she did it.

So its cowardly to throw paint at one female Minister but acceptable to drown another in a vat of paint?

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:53:59 PM

Quote from: sammymaguire on November 01, 2010, 08:51:46 PM
The silly good for nothing bitch deserves alot worse than that and some of her Chroney friends in the Dail should get similar treatment for taking hard working peoples' money for sitting on their fat arses doing fcuk all

Do you honestly believe that, particularly the bit in bold?

There is no need for half the number of politicians & councillors that there are in Ireland. The vast majority of them serve very little purpose and would make little difference if they were not there. How many holidays do they get per year? Jokers, feathering their nests for their own personal interests

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:55:52 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:53:32 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:16:28 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Given that you approve of her actions, just not her target, its a little hypocrtical to express your disgust too vehemently.

I didn't say I approved of her actions, did I?

Disillusioned posed a question.  I answered it.  FWIW, I think her actions were typical of a coward, given her CV it doesn't surprise me one bit she did it.

So its cowardly to throw paint at one female Minister but acceptable to drown another in a vat of paint?

Where did I say such a thing?  I suggested that's what our minister deserves.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:02:48 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:55:52 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:53:32 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:16:28 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Given that you approve of her actions, just not her target, its a little hypocrtical to express your disgust too vehemently.

I didn't say I approved of her actions, did I?

Disillusioned posed a question.  I answered it.  FWIW, I think her actions were typical of a coward, given her CV it doesn't surprise me one bit she did it.

So its cowardly to throw paint at one female Minister but acceptable to drown another in a vat of paint?

Where did I say such a thing?  I suggested that's what our minister deserves.

A pathetic attempt to draw a distinction. So if somebody attacked Catriona Ruane it would be deserved but not acceptable?

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 09:06:12 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:02:48 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:55:52 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:53:32 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 08:39:11 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 08:16:28 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 01, 2010, 08:13:15 PM
Shows a lack of class in my opinion.

Yer woman's CV says it all

Given that you approve of her actions, just not her target, its a little hypocrtical to express your disgust too vehemently.

I didn't say I approved of her actions, did I?

Disillusioned posed a question.  I answered it.  FWIW, I think her actions were typical of a coward, given her CV it doesn't surprise me one bit she did it.

So its cowardly to throw paint at one female Minister but acceptable to drown another in a vat of paint?

Where did I say such a thing?  I suggested that's what our minister deserves.

A pathetic attempt to draw a distinction. So if somebody attacked Catriona Ruane it would be deserved but not acceptable?

Oh I get it, you are another provo on here getting touchy. 

Catch a grip of yourself like a good child

I'd love to see someone say that to a touchy Provo to their face... Not this millennium I reckon

A stupid pointless protest devoid of real politics. When we have a mass movement of angry people on the streets demanding real change, then change will happen. Until then the Country will continue will continue to be governed by self  interest, corruption and greed, while Irish children are sacrificed on the altar of neo-liberal economics. While Children are being condemned to live in poverty, their health and education needs denied, the so called media of this Country will devote hours of air-time and reams of print condemning this paint attack, but will not even acknowledge that government policy in this child abuse

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:07:38 PM

Oh I get it, you are another provo on here getting touchy. 

Catch a grip of yourself like a good child

You dislike having your hypocrisy highlighted so you resort to insults (erroneous insults as it happens). Wonderfully mature. Not everybody who refuses to have the temerity to agree with you is a Provo you know.

Not at all, I don't care what you or anyone else on here thinks of what I say.  I stand by what I said, our minister would deserve it. 

Do you have any idea what mess she has made of the education system?
Do you realise it was shinner policy which she foisted upon us all without even a hint of democracy about it?

I stand by what I said whether you think it's hypocritical or not.

I suspect you aren't telling the truth by the way, why else would you get all offended by what I said?   :o

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:23:31 PM
Not at all, I don't care what you or anyone else on here thinks of what I say.  I stand by what I said, our minister would deserve it. 

Do you have any idea what mess she has made of the education system?
Do you realise it was shinner policy which she foisted upon us all without even a hint of democracy about it?

I stand by what I said whether you think it's hypocritical or not.

I suspect you aren't telling the truth by the way, why else would you get all offended by what I said?   :o

Party stands for election espousing an end to academic selection.
Elected member of party becomes education Minister.
Minister implements policy platform on which she was elected.

As it happens I think Ruane has performed fairly poorly in her post, particularly in her failure to take decisive action. The manner in which the selection issue was allowed to drift until the last minute was far from acceptable. Academic selection is inherently wrong in my view and I applaud anyone who stands against such a system despite the fact that I benefited from it myself.

However I am not blinded by the hatred of SF that appears to consume you. I don't support SF and don't vote for them. I did once but no longer. And I'm not offended by anything you say just mildly irritated by your blatant hypocrisy.

It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:47:55 PM
It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Yes I think its the second time. I'm gald you're keeping count of the numerous occasions with which people disagree with you. Its nothing to me really, I haven't even defended them on this thread (or is refusing to condone physical attacks on Ms Ruane defence in your eyes?). In fact I've said that I think she has done a poor job but that I don't support academic selection. Hardly ground-breaking opinions. However your obsession with Republicans is somewhat irritating, particularly the manner in which you attempt to turn so many thread into anti-SF rants. In this case you've succeeded again so I'll allow the thread to return to its proper topic of discussion.

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 09:57:51 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:47:55 PM
It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Yes I think its the second time. I'm gald you're keeping count of the numerous occasions with which people disagree with you. Its nothing to me really, I haven't even defended them on this thread (or is refusing to condone physical attacks on Ms Ruane defence in your eyes?). In fact I've said that I think she has done a poor job but that I don't support academic selection. Hardly ground-breaking opinions. However your obsession with Republicans is somewhat irritating, particularly the manner in which you attempt to turn so many thread into anti-SF rants. In this case you've succeeded again so I'll allow the thread to return to its proper topic of discussion.

We really need a yawn smiley.  You don't have to read what I type if you don't like it.  Just because you don't like me spouting about shinners doesn't mean I have to stop.  Run along now

For anyone who's ever suffered the converer belt
that passes as the health service or had a relative suffer the indignity of it,
Harney has had this coming.

For those suffering from righteous indignation, 'tis only a drop of paint.
About time the Irish fought back against this shower. At least the French
have a bit of fight about them. Can only hope this is the start of something
against this rabble.

Quote from: Mack the finger on November 01, 2010, 10:05:33 PM
For anyone who's ever suffered the converer belt
that passes as the health service or had a relative suffer the indignity of it,
Harney has had this coming.

For those suffering from righteous indignation, 'tis only a drop of paint.
About time the Irish fought back against this shower. At least the French
have a bit of fight about them. Can only hope this is the start of something
against this rabble.

If you are right, then I fear for the way society is going. If there is something wrong in Government, then its okay go throw paint over someone?

That is very sad.

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:08:42 PM

Quote from: Mack the finger on November 01, 2010, 10:05:33 PM
For anyone who's ever suffered the converer belt
that passes as the health service or had a relative suffer the indignity of it,
Harney has had this coming.

For those suffering from righteous indignation, 'tis only a drop of paint.
About time the Irish fought back against this shower. At least the French
have a bit of fight about them. Can only hope this is the start of something
against this rabble.

If you are right, then I fear for the way society is going. If there is something wrong in Government, then its okay go throw paint over someone?

That is very sad.

She is not just "someone". She is a minister for health that has destroyed the health service and I hope for your sake u never have to rely on that service.

Is hardly the way to deal with it. If we did that to every politician who has messed things up there wouldnt be enough paint to go around and then bankers, Bishops who covered up child abuse, unionists or Republican politicians each side hates up here.... on and on. It ain't the way... 

Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 10:00:23 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 09:57:51 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:47:55 PM
It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Yes I think its the second time. I'm gald you're keeping count of the numerous occasions with which people disagree with you. Its nothing to me really, I haven't even defended them on this thread (or is refusing to condone physical attacks on Ms Ruane defence in your eyes?). In fact I've said that I think she has done a poor job but that I don't support academic selection. Hardly ground-breaking opinions. However your obsession with Republicans is somewhat irritating, particularly the manner in which you attempt to turn so many thread into anti-SF rants. In this case you've succeeded again so I'll allow the thread to return to its proper topic of discussion.

We really need a yawn smiley.  You don't have to read what I type if you don't like it.  Just because you don't like me spouting about shinners doesn't mean I have to stop.  Run along now

Just because you don't like your views being challengedd doesn't mean anybody should refrain from doing so.

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 10:35:40 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 10:00:23 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 09:57:51 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:47:55 PM
It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Yes I think its the second time. I'm gald you're keeping count of the numerous occasions with which people disagree with you. Its nothing to me really, I haven't even defended them on this thread (or is refusing to condone physical attacks on Ms Ruane defence in your eyes?). In fact I've said that I think she has done a poor job but that I don't support academic selection. Hardly ground-breaking opinions. However your obsession with Republicans is somewhat irritating, particularly the manner in which you attempt to turn so many thread into anti-SF rants. In this case you've succeeded again so I'll allow the thread to return to its proper topic of discussion.

We really need a yawn smiley.  You don't have to read what I type if you don't like it.  Just because you don't like me spouting about shinners doesn't mean I have to stop.  Run along now

Just because you don't like your views being challengedd doesn't mean anybody should refrain from doing so.

A yawn smiley is definitely needed.  You are boring me to tears, provo lover

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 10:38:01 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 10:35:40 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 10:00:23 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 09:57:51 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:47:55 PM
It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Yes I think its the second time. I'm gald you're keeping count of the numerous occasions with which people disagree with you. Its nothing to me really, I haven't even defended them on this thread (or is refusing to condone physical attacks on Ms Ruane defence in your eyes?). In fact I've said that I think she has done a poor job but that I don't support academic selection. Hardly ground-breaking opinions. However your obsession with Republicans is somewhat irritating, particularly the manner in which you attempt to turn so many thread into anti-SF rants. In this case you've succeeded again so I'll allow the thread to return to its proper topic of discussion.

We really need a yawn smiley.  You don't have to read what I type if you don't like it.  Just because you don't like me spouting about shinners doesn't mean I have to stop.  Run along now

Just because you don't like your views being challengedd doesn't mean anybody should refrain from doing so.

A yawn smiley is definitely needed.  You are boring me to tears, provo lover

I withdraw from this conversation citing the advice of a poster known as The Biff.

This is the second time you have said that, let's see if you can do it or if you will come back to have another go at me.  I can take it, provo lover

ATTENTION / ACHTUNG / ATTENZIONNE

I am currently being ignored by ardmhachaabu (again) for asking him tough questions that he couldn't answer (again) so could somebody maybe ask him a question for me in the hope that he might answer you? Then you could maybe pass on his answer to me??

Is someone a hypocrite if they proclaim themselves to be a pacifist and a former potential Priest but also say that someone "deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint"?

Thank You / Merci / Danke

SF = murderers, liars and thieves

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:50:04 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

You should really educate yourself on the subject you are going to comment on. She has farmed out health to private companies because her arrogant pd opinions mean that business comes 1st ahead of everything. She abused power when on foreign trips to pamper herself. Yes, she is in it totally for herself. She is guilty of gross mismanagement. She refuses to resign or admit any wrong doing even though the hse are the biggest joke in the country in everything they do. I could write you a list but just stick HSE + scandal into google and see what you get. I'm glad to see the principle of throwing paint on someone is permitted in your mind. Just wondering how many people a person should be allowed kill or be indirectly responsible for killing before paint can be thrown on them. Any idea how many people have died from mrsa when they just  went to hospital for a standard procedure?

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:50:04 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

http://www.mediabite.org/article_Harney-and-Husband_25017894.html (http://www.mediabite.org/article_Harney-and-Husband_25017894.html)

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:50:04 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

I think the more likely proposition is that she is doing her best. Now many may think that she has gone about this in an entirely ham-fisted manner and is utterly incompetent but I have no doubt that she is trying to improve those matters that are within her control.

I've never bought into this argument that politicians are in their choosen profession purely for their own gain. Most could have earned far more money had they pursued another career path.

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 10:59:32 PM

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:50:04 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

I think the more likely proposition is that she is doing her best. Now many may think that she has gone about this in an entirely ham-fisted manner and is utterly incompetent but I have no doubt that she is trying to improve those matters that are within her control.

I've never bought into this argument that politicians are in their choosen profession purely for their own gain. Most could have earned far more money had they pursued another career path.

Read Muppets link above and then re type that post if you can. Jesus, it just amazes me how naive some of ye are. And what the hell would Harney get paid for more if she had gone into private industry instead of polictics? She was a teacher with a degree in arts in 1976. Since then she has been the minister for trade and health getting a huge salary and expenses and probably even better holidays than the teachers.

Name 10 Irish politicans that are qualified to such an extent that they would make more money in the private sector (leaving aside any "popularity" they gained from being in politics)

Quote from: Nally Stand on November 01, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
ATTENTION / ACHTUNG / ATTENZIONNE

I am currently being ignored by ardmhachaabu (again) for asking him tough questions that he couldn't answer (again) so could somebody maybe ask him a question for me in the hope that he might answer you? Then you could maybe pass on his answer to me??

Is someone a hypocrite if they proclaim themselves to be a pacifist and a former potential Priest but also say that someone "deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint"?

Thank You / Merci / Danke

PLEASE!! Someone!!

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 01, 2010, 11:11:55 PM

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 01, 2010, 10:59:32 PM

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:50:04 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

I think the more likely proposition is that she is doing her best. Now many may think that she has gone about this in an entirely ham-fisted manner and is utterly incompetent but I have no doubt that she is trying to improve those matters that are within her control.

I've never bought into this argument that politicians are in their choosen profession purely for their own gain. Most could have earned far more money had they pursued another career path.

Read Muppets link above and then re type that post if you can. Jesus, it just amazes me how naive some of ye are. And what the hell would Harney get paid for more if she had gone into private industry instead of polictics? She was a teacher with a degree in arts in 1976. Since then she has been the minister for trade and health getting a huge salary and expenses and probably even better holidays than the teachers.

Name 10 Irish politicans that are qualified to such an extent that they would make more money in the private sector (leaving aside any "popularity" they gained from being in politics)

Fair enough Harney has likely profited quite a bit but I was speaking generally. Take a look at the professions of many backbenchers. My view is that politician's salaries need to be pitched at a level so that the best and the brightest are not unduely put off, albeit that €100,000 is probably sufficient (I admit I hadn't realised the salaries were that high and was comparing them with MLAs). As for holidays, do you really think that Ministers sit at home watching TV when the Dáil isn't in session?

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:57:46 PM

Quote from: Orior on November 01, 2010, 10:50:04 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 01, 2010, 10:33:41 PM
Whatever about the rights and wrongs of it being 'only paint' or it being 'violence against a woman', it demonstrates clearly that the Irish don't have it in them to fight for themselves.

The Financial Regulator was Harney's idea.
The current state of the Health System is her fault.
She and the rest are very lucky they are dealing with the Irish and not say the French.

Rightly or wrongly there will be no mass movement (unpleasentness) to get rid of useless/corrupt politicians/eilte and that is why they will continue to administer it to us rectally.

You would think to hear some people that she deliberately set out to destroy the health service simply to line her own pockets - how do you think she has benefited, or is she just evil?

You would think to hear some people that she came up with all the ideas herself - she has advisors that are also users of the health service and other government services.

In my opinion, there are only two people in recent history deserving of paint thrown at them (Hitler and Thatcher) and that would be after they had accusations put to them (in a mature and fair fashion) and they had a chance to explain themselves.

http://www.mediabite.org/article_Harney-and-Husband_25017894.html (http://www.mediabite.org/article_Harney-and-Husband_25017894.html)

The prosecution has spoken. And did she offer any defence?

Quote from: Zapatista on November 01, 2010, 11:27:32 PM
A random guy throws a shoe at a politician and become a hero.
A random guy drives a truck and parks at the gates of Leinster house blocking the entrance and becomes a hero (if even for a short while).
A two bit cllr pours paint over Mary Harney and she's a disgrace.
Hypocritic if you ask me.

The disgrace is that Irish people look for the angle that serves them and in this case it's to rally against Minihan as attacking republicans has always been a vote winner. How about a little bit of leadership and someone with a real idea of were we want to take this Country saying 'if Harney wasn't such a f**k up in a Government destroying the country and denying an election she'd have been all right'.

It's the fact that she's an elected politican (no matter what the representative body)

When ordinary people lose the head and fire eggs/paint or whatever it's because they're frustrated or have been driven to it because they feel nobody is listening, it's easy to empathise with that person.

But if I had voted for someone to give them a platform to speak for me and they stooped to this sort of shenanigan I'd make damn sure they were the next victim of having something thrown at them for wasting my vote. You'd expect more from someone that has been elected, but when you see that they are representatives of brain deads in Eirigi I suppose i shouldn't be surprised at all.

Zap - I would make the same comment regardless of the perpetrators political persuasion

The behavior of thrown paint at anyone is considered morally wrong. surely there's better ways of putting your point of dissatisfaction across?

While Mary Harney has done a terrible job as the head of health care i don't put all the blame at her door. Fianna Fáil knew what there were doing by giving a non-Fianna Fáil member this difficult job.

Time has come for both to step aside & fix this mess

Quote from: stephenite on November 02, 2010, 01:18:11 AM

It's the fact that she's an elected politican (no matter what the representative body)

When ordinary people lose the head and fire eggs/paint or whatever it's becuase they're frustrated or have been driven to it because they feel nobody is listening, it's easy to empathise with that person.

But if I had voted for someone to give them a platform to speak for me and they stooped to this sort of shenanigan I'd make damn sure they were the next victim of having something thrown at them for wasting my vote. You'd expect more from someone that has been elected, but when you see that they are representatives of brain deads in Eirigi I suppose i shouldn't be surprised at all.

Quote from: ross4life on November 02, 2010, 01:42:46 AM
The behavior of thrown paint at anyone is considered morally wrong. surely there's better ways of putting your point of dissatisfaction across?

While Mary Harney has done a terrible job as the head of health care i don't put all the blame at her door. Fianna Fáil knew what there were doing by giving a non-Fianna Fáil member this difficult job.

Time has come for both to step aside & fix this mess

Good call by the two Connacht lads.

Quote from: Nally Stand on November 01, 2010, 11:16:39 PM

Quote from: Nally Stand on November 01, 2010, 10:47:42 PM
ATTENTION / ACHTUNG / ATTENZIONNE

I am currently being ignored by ardmhachaabu (again) for asking him tough questions that he couldn't answer (again) so could somebody maybe ask him a question for me in the hope that he might answer you? Then you could maybe pass on his answer to me??

Is someone a hypocrite if they proclaim themselves to be a pacifist and a former potential Priest but also say that someone "deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint"?

Thank You / Merci / Danke

PLEASE!! Someone!!

::) in youth we learn, with age we understand
*Liberalism is indeed a mental disorder*

Ardmhachabu, Will you please answer Nallystand`s question? Paint must be cheap to waste it on Gov.minister. :)

You get the politicians you deserve ::)

It's f**kers like Sean Fitzpatrick and his ilk that need sorted >:(

Quote from: stephenite on November 02, 2010, 01:18:11 AM
You'd expect more from someone that has been elected, but when you see that they are representatives of brain deads in Eirigi I suppose i shouldn't be surprised at all.

She was SF when she got voted in, then left to join Eirigi. Minehan is a sc**bag, pure and simple.

As for Harney, she's a turd, and has done a lot wrong as has been outlined above. But to say she's "destroyed the health service" as seems to be the common theme from most posters is absolute nonsense. Our health service has been poor for at least 30 years. From the cutbacks under Haughey, to all the money thrown at it since then, its been a complete basket case. Harney is Minister for Health because nobody else wanted it. She's getting very little out of it now personally - I'm sure she has sufficient service at this stage to get one of the top pensions, and could happily while away her time in the back benches. But for some reason she wants to continue to bang her head against the brick wall of health and try to come up with something.

She has acheived next-to-nothing, like all her recent predecessors, but there's no doubt she tried. Unlike the others she's at least coming up with ideas, some of them are radical, but they feckin have to be. But its near impossible to get substantive change because of the union powers. They've protested every initiative she's come up with.

And then the media outrage on the private hospital idea, was disgraceful in my view.  There is a lot to be said for the idea, but the media and oppostion just went straight "its a two tier system, therefore its bad", playing on the emotive issues, without any proper debate. So lets keep everyone on the one shítty tier we have now.

Private hospitals in this country provide excellent care, and do so efficiently and profitably (partly because the unions have less power than they do in the public hospitals). Public hospitals in this country, in the main, also provide excellent care - but only when you eventually get seen. By when it could be too late. Harney's idea could well have solved it. It wasn't perfect, and ironically one of the inadequacies was she was charging too high a price to the private operators, but media/oppostion/unions (not to mention all the sheep) refused to get into any reasonable debate to improve the idea. In my view it would have all but eliminated waiting lists and everyone would have gotten better care than ever before. But feck it, lets all just roar and shout about two tier, and leave things as they are...

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 01, 2010, 09:47:55 PM
It's not the first time you have challenged me when I have said something about the shinners.  Why are you so defensive of them if you don't support them?

So what if I hate them?  What's it to you?

Away and run back to Cyprus St you clown and get another lesson on revisionism from you stickie comrades.You and your Uncle the I Ran Aways.

QuoteI've never bought into this argument that politicians are in their choosen profession purely for their own gain. Most could have earned far more money had they pursued another career path.

Do you really believe that after what has happened in this country over the last 30 years?

Okay, so Harney is not without sin. Then again, there are very few politicians who have not lined their nest (the likes of John Hume being the exception). I wont deny that Harney has maximised her position (as well as her figure).

I still think that throwing paint at someone constitutes assault.

Quote from: Orior on November 02, 2010, 11:23:17 AM
Okay, so Harney is not without sin. Then again, there are very few politicians who have not lined their nest (the likes of John Hume being the exception). I wont deny that Harney has maximised her position (as well as her figure).

I still think that throwing paint at someone constitutes assault.

There's no "think" about it. This behaviour most certainly is an assault.

Quote from: Hound on November 02, 2010, 08:32:45 AM

Quote from: stephenite on November 02, 2010, 01:18:11 AM
You'd expect more from someone that has been elected, but when you see that they are representatives of brain deads in Eirigi I suppose i shouldn't be surprised at all.

She was SF when she got voted in, then left to join Eirigi. Minehan is a sc**bag, pure and simple.

As for Harney, she's a turd, and has done a lot wrong as has been outlined above. But to say she's "destroyed the health service" as seems to be the common theme from most posters is absolute nonsense. Our health service has been poor for at least 30 years. From the cutbacks under Haughey, to all the money thrown at it since then, its been a complete basket case. Harney is Minister for Health because nobody else wanted it. She's getting very little out of it now personally - I'm sure she has sufficient service at this stage to get one of the top pensions, and could happily while away her time in the back benches. But for some reason she wants to continue to bang her head against the brick wall of health and try to come up with something.

She has acheived next-to-nothing, like all her recent predecessors, but there's no doubt she tried. Unlike the others she's at least coming up with ideas, some of them are radical, but they feckin have to be. But its near impossible to get substantive change because of the union powers. They've protested every initiative she's come up with.

And then the media outrage on the private hospital idea, was disgraceful in my view.  There is a lot to be said for the idea, but the media and oppostion just went straight "its a two tier system, therefore its bad", playing on the emotive issues, without any proper debate. So lets keep everyone on the one shítty tier we have now.

Private hospitals in this country provide excellent care, and do so efficiently and profitably (partly because the unions have less power than they do in the public hospitals). Public hospitals in this country, in the main, also provide excellent care - but only when you eventually get seen. By when it could be too late. Harney's idea could well have solved it. It wasn't perfect, and ironically one of the inadequacies was she was charging too high a price to the private operators, but media/oppostion/unions (not to mention all the sheep) refused to get into any reasonable debate to improve the idea. In my view it would have all but eliminated waiting lists and everyone would have gotten better care than ever before. But feck it, lets all just roar and shout about two tier, and leave things as they are...

Finally a bit of sense. Does anyone here really know what it is like to make changes in our health system? The trade unions are not for moving, everyone in bedded in to a culture of can't do. The people who really need to get paint bombed are the mandarins in the civil service who are tied into all public sector reform and will not vote for change as it will effect them as well. I listened to a debate this morning, about the proposed severance packages in the HSE, average 120 K package some up to 300 K, retire at 50, full index linked pension for the rest of their days, and the unions are still not happy, GTFO.
If the woman who threw the paint is so confident of her mandate, then resign and  then stand as a eirigi canditate and see what way the chips fall. Also this "working class" bullshit is really begining to grate on me, can somone define working class, as opposed to the "other" classes in society, should  people who work hard to get on in life and try to make something better for their family be ashamed of themselves becuase they dont live in a council estate. Im my opinion anyone who gets up in the morning to do a days work or study to provide for  their family or try to better themselves is now deemed middle class and are stamping all over the "working classes" of this country. Open capitalisim has been shown not to work but, a socialist state and a tearing up of the Good Friday agreement would be a step forward in the right direction (as our Eirigi friends would like) ? ::) One of our finest politicans over the past 20 years, stood in the last election in a "working class" area on a socialist platform and couldn't get elected (Joe Higgins), but went on to become an MEP. All politics/ politicians are about power and status. End of.

Quote from: Orior on November 02, 2010, 11:23:17 AM
Okay, so Harney is not without sin. Then again, there are very few politicians who have not lined their nest (the likes of John Hume being the exception). I wont deny that Harney has maximised her position (as well as her figure).

I still think that throwing paint at someone constitutes assault.

I agree

Bertie Ahern was the main driver of that social partnership bus-his only contributions to any budget Champagne Charlie prepared was to ensure there was money put aside for this as well as the more laudable social welfare increases which were overdue when they were first announced. Cabinet rarely got a look in at the time to the extent that they might only find out the night before what McCreevy had planned.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 02, 2010, 12:10:29 PM

Quote from: Orior on November 02, 2010, 11:23:17 AM
Okay, so Harney is not without sin. Then again, there are very few politicians who have not lined their nest (the likes of John Hume being the exception). I wont deny that Harney has maximised her position (as well as her figure).

I still think that throwing paint at someone constitutes assault.

I agree

So ardmhacha, you are a self proclaimed pacifist and a former potential priest who feels that throwing paint constitutes assault.....is it not hypocritical to say someone else "deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint"??? Sorry to keep harping on about this but I'd just like you to clarify it for me??

Thanks

Quote from: Nally Stand on November 02, 2010, 12:37:17 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 02, 2010, 12:10:29 PM

Quote from: Orior on November 02, 2010, 11:23:17 AM
Okay, so Harney is not without sin. Then again, there are very few politicians who have not lined their nest (the likes of John Hume being the exception). I wont deny that Harney has maximised her position (as well as her figure).

I still think that throwing paint at someone constitutes assault.

I agree

He has to check with his comrades in the lower falls before he can answer.
So ardmhacha, you are a self proclaimed pacifist and a former potential priest who feels that throwing paint constitutes assault.....is it not hypocritical to say someone else "deserves to be drowned in a vat of paint"??? Sorry to keep harping on about this but I'd just like you to clarify it for me??

Thanks

I'm only after getting a look at the blade that threw the paint in the paper there, I have one conlusion - she would definitley get it

Quote from: Banana Man on November 02, 2010, 01:33:19 PM
I'm only after getting a look at the blade that threw the paint in the paper there, I have one conlusion - she would definitley get it

Is she not a fat f**ker like Harney?

papers gone from canteen now but i thought she looked A1....

Quote from: Zapatista on November 02, 2010, 09:24:13 AM
The two tier system did not get attacked because it was bad but because it is wrong.

I know that's your firmly held opinion and of course your well entitled to it. But I completely disagree. There would be absolutely nothing "wrong" with it.

It would be absolutely fair. In fact the only people who could argue it is unfair would be those who pay a mountain of tax, and then pay a big health insurance policy on  top of that to get their healthcare.

The colocated hospitals would ensure that those who choose to pay for private health insurance get treated in private hospitals, which would mean that those who don't pay the insurance get treated in public hospitals without the delay and suffering that goes on now and thus everyone gets improved healthcare. Its absolute common sense - which most of the best ideas are.

I find it absolutely amazing how so many people are anti-it (apart from obviously those on the far left would obviously be against it), and it can only be people don't think it through

This is Miss Minihan: http://www.indymedia.ie/attachments/jun2008/women_vote_no_to_lisbon_11.jpg

Best of luck Bananaman. You might want to be careful she wouldn't bite it off though. Loopers are like that.

jeysus wept, either my eyesight has gone or she has lost a lot of weight

a shallow hal moment

Quote from: Hound on November 02, 2010, 03:42:33 PM
I know that's your firmly held opinion and of course your well entitled to it. But I completely disagree. There would be absolutely nothing "wrong" with it.

It would be absolutely fair. In fact the only people who could argue it is unfair would be those who pay a mountain of tax, and then pay a big health insurance policy on  top of that to get their healthcare.

The co located hospitals would ensure that those who choose to pay for private health insurance get treated in private hospitals, which would mean that those who don't pay the insurance get treated in public hospitals without the delay and suffering that goes on now and thus everyone gets improved healthcare. Its absolute common sense - which most of the best ideas are.

I find it absolutely amazing how so many people are anti-it (apart from obviously those on the far left would obviously be against it), and it can only be people don't think it through

And you too are entitled to your opinion. I don't think we can agree on this.

The fact that those who pay a mountain of tax and then pay health insurance is no different than those who pay any tax, it's still double taxation. If the problem is in the taxation system then that's a separate problem unrelated to public/private health care. I can equally argue that there are many top earners paying little or no tax who can afford to avail of private health care but then again that is a tax issue relating to all aspects of public spending.

The co located hospitals do not define those who choose to pay and those who choose not to pay. It defines those able to pay and those unable to pay. This does not mean everyone gets the same health care. If they all got the same health care then there would be no debate. Why would anyone pay health insurance if they can get the same health care through the public system?

In order to create a demand for private health care you must hold back the public system. This has been ongoing. Now that the economy has crashed and we have mass unemployment less and less people are renewing their health insurance and there are fewer first time buyers of health insurance. These people are now reliant on a public system that has been held back to create the demand for the private sector putting an increased burden on the public sector. If health had have remained public no projections would have been made on the amount of people taking up private health insurance and the public system could have been built solely on the need of the population. The demand for a public systems increases by the day and the public system is under more pressure every day while the private system is losing clients by the day. The system has failed.

I am anti-it and I am not far left (although i'm used to being slurred with that at this stage). Not only have I thought it through but I am living it.

Cant believe 60% of yee voted out of line, this country is a fcking joke.

The quicker time that social unrest starts and people protest in huge nrs the better. But problem we dont give a fck unless it affects us, who gives a fck if the neighbour is being shafted by our health system, who gives a fck the neighbours hse is being repossessod while fitzpatrick lives off his wifes 3 million.

Reading the clowns on here saying throwing paint on you is assault, one of my friends got a pint thrown in his face in front of cops and they did nothing.

Oh and another thing the HSE as such shower of fcking idiots that they nearly killed my Dad, thankfully he survived but no thanks to lazyiness shower of c***ts, im lucky, but imagine someone close to you has cancer or has to wait months on end for diagnosis and gets the piss taken out of them by the system, imagine the anger, im sure this woman had her reasons that drove her to this. But sure again 60% of yee dont give a fiddlers. Ya sure let harney keep fcking up and let more people die or suffer unecessarliy.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on November 03, 2010, 12:30:13 AM

The quicker time that social unrest starts and people protest in huge nrs the better.

Bollix

Second worst thing that could happen to this country after having a Government with Fianna Fail.

Civil Unrest is for wackos in Greece and France, the muppets.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 03, 2010, 12:35:59 AM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on November 03, 2010, 12:30:13 AM

The quicker time that social unrest starts and people protest in huge nrs the better.

Bollix

Second worst thing that could happen to this country after having a Government with Fianna Fail.

Civil Unrest is for wackos in Greece and France, the muppets.

At least there polititions are held accountable, all ours have done is done there best to save themselves and the rich. What should be done to force accountability, and responsibility, 2 things missing from this recession..? All i see is corruption and self serving poltitions trying to minimise the damage to themselves.

What is Minihan's record ? What has she done, as a councillor, for her constituents ? How has she voted on issues that affect her community?

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on November 03, 2010, 12:30:13 AM
Cant believe 60% of yee voted out of line, this country is a fcking joke.

I don't know where you've been this last 2 years as that's better than than I imagined.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 03, 2010, 12:35:59 AM
Bollix

Second worst thing that could happen to this country after having a Government with Fianna Fail.

Civil Unrest is for wackos in Greece and France, the muppets.

We are the ones who sit back and take it everytime FF want to screw us. We are like the battered wife. Greece and France have the right attitude and now the world knows they won't sit quietly in the corner and do what their masters tell them. Ireland is a laughing stock.

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on November 03, 2010, 12:34:42 AM
im sure this woman had her reasons that drove her to this. But sure again 60% of yee dont give a fiddlers.

Yes, publicity. And there's a big difference between thinking this was the wrong approach and not giving a fiddlers.

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 03, 2010, 08:03:10 AM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on November 03, 2010, 12:34:42 AM
im sure this woman had her reasons that drove her to this. But sure again 60% of yee dont give a fiddlers.

Yes, publicity. And there's a big difference between thinking this was the wrong approach and not giving a fiddlers.

Harney was there for the publicity herself. She got more than she bargained for ;)

Quote from: Zapatista on November 03, 2010, 08:06:07 AM

Quote from: Maguire01 on November 03, 2010, 08:03:10 AM

Quote from: SLIGONIAN on November 03, 2010, 12:34:42 AM
im sure this woman had her reasons that drove her to this. But sure again 60% of yee dont give a fiddlers.

Yes, publicity. And there's a big difference between thinking this was the wrong approach and not giving a fiddlers.

Harney was there for the publicity herself. She got more than she bargained for ;)

Yes - she presides over a shambles of a department yet has a few hours spare to pop down to a building site with her entourage in her government Merc and organise the media to be there to photograph her lifting the 1st sod so that she can promote herself. Of course, she is not the only politician that does be at this cringworthy behaviour. I remember Brendan Smith refusing to allow the kids of a creche in Bawnboy cut the ribbon on the new creche and insisted, as local TD, that he do it. What I'd have done for a can of paint that day.

QuoteA stupid pointless protest devoid of real politics. When we have a mass movement of angry people on the streets demanding real change, then change will happen. Until then the Country will continue will continue to be governed by self  interest, corruption and greed, while Irish children are sacrificed on the altar of neo-liberal economics. While Children are being condemned to live in poverty, their health and education needs denied, the so called media of this Country will devote hours of air-time and reams of print condemning this paint attack, but will not even acknowledge that government policy in this child abuse

Agreed

Quote from: Zapatista on November 02, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The co located hospitals do not define those who choose to pay and those who choose not to pay. It defines those able to pay and those unable to pay. This does not mean everyone gets the same health care. If they all got the same health care then there would be no debate. Why would anyone pay health insurance if they can get the same health care through the public system?

I never said everyone would get the same healthcare under Harney's plan. But everyone would get better healthcare.

There are 2 or 3 really crap public hospitals, but the vast majority are very good and staffed by excellent doctors and nurses. If they had no overcrowding problems they would give very good healthcare. Those who want to pay more for private hospitals would get more comfort and more privacy.

Quote from: Hound on November 03, 2010, 04:08:01 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 02, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The co located hospitals do not define those who choose to pay and those who choose not to pay. It defines those able to pay and those unable to pay. This does not mean everyone gets the same health care. If they all got the same health care then there would be no debate. Why would anyone pay health insurance if they can get the same health care through the public system?

I never said everyone would get the same healthcare under Harney's plan. But everyone would get better healthcare.

There are 2 or 3 really crap public hospitals, but the vast majority are very good and staffed by excellent doctors and nurses. If they had no overcrowding problems they would give very good healthcare. Those who want to pay more for private hospitals would get more comfort and more privacy.

Do you understand that the overcrowding is set to get worse due to this policy. Less and less people can afford private health care yet the drive towards providing private health care continues, while the drive towards providing public health care diminishes. The private system has grown beyond it's need while the public system is to be further cut by 600 million next month. How can this possibly provide improved health care and shorter waiting list for the public patient?


Those who want to pay is spin for those able to pay.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 03, 2010, 11:17:37 PM

Quote from: Hound on November 03, 2010, 04:08:01 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 02, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The co located hospitals do not define those who choose to pay and those who choose not to pay. It defines those able to pay and those unable to pay. This does not mean everyone gets the same health care. If they all got the same health care then there would be no debate. Why would anyone pay health insurance if they can get the same health care through the public system?

I never said everyone would get the same healthcare under Harney's plan. But everyone would get better healthcare.

There are 2 or 3 really crap public hospitals, but the vast majority are very good and staffed by excellent doctors and nurses. If they had no overcrowding problems they would give very good healthcare. Those who want to pay more for private hospitals would get more comfort and more privacy.

Do you understand that the overcrowding is set to get worse due to this policy. Less and less people can afford private health care yet the drive towards providing private health care continues, while the drive towards providing public health care diminishes. The private system has grown beyond it's need while the public system is to be further cut by 600 million next month. How can this possibly provide improved health care and shorter waiting list for the public patient?


Those who want to pay is spin for those able to pay.

Serioulsy Zapaista I usually am in agreement with you, but discussion about the health service and the actions of Mary Harney are a totally different thread to this. This is a thread about an asault, not the health service. I agree we should have this debate in a different thread where I probably will be in agreement with you.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 04, 2010, 05:11:26 AM
Serioulsy Zapaista I usually am in agreement with you, but discussion about the health service and the actions of Mary Harney are a totally different thread to this. This is a thread about an asault, not the health service. I agree we should have this debate in a different thread where I probably will be in agreement with you.

from very early on this thread descended into whether Harney deserved it or not, so talking about her policies is well within its remit

Quote from: Zapatista on November 03, 2010, 11:17:37 PM
Do you understand that the overcrowding is set to get worse due to this policy. Less and less people can afford private health care yet the drive towards providing private health care continues, while the drive towards providing public health care diminishes. The private system has grown beyond it's need while the public system is to be further cut by 600 million next month. How can this possibly provide improved health care and shorter waiting list for the public patient?

Those who want to pay is spin for those able to pay.

Zap, its nonsense to say overcrowding would get worse under this policy. It would allow alll those private patients who are being treated in public hospitals to be treated in private hospitals, thus freeing up space in public hospitals.

The impending cuts to the health system is absolutely nothing to do with colocation.

You're absolutely right in that there are people giving up their private health insurance, but not that many. Now that there is proper competition in that market place, people are switching around to get the best deal. But that's a gamble the private operators will be taking, and that's going to happen regardless of whether these operators are allowed to and want to build these new private hospitals. The building of these private hospitals will definitely decrease waiting lists and thus lead to better care in public hospitals

Quote from: Hound on November 04, 2010, 09:27:14 AM


The impending cuts to the health system is absolutely nothing to do with colocation.

You're absolutely right in that there are people giving up their private health insurance, but not that many. Now that there is proper competition in that market place, people are switching around to get the best deal. But that's a gamble the private operators will be taking, and that's going to happen regardless of whether these operators are allowed to and want to build these new private hospitals. The building of these private hospitals will definitely decrease waiting lists and thus lead to better care in public hospitals

The number of people with Irish private health insurance has fallen by over 40,000 (almost 2% of those insured) in 2009 and the numbers forced to cancel their policies is likely to increase significantly in 2010 the Oireachtas Committee on Health and Children was told today

http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1018701.shtml

QuoteZap, its nonsense to say overcrowding would get worse under this policy. It would allow alll those private patients who are being treated in public hospitals to be treated in private hospitals, thus freeing up space in public hospitals.

The Private system has been built around the ability of people to pay and the public system has been adjusted to allow for that. With an extra 40 000 relying on the public system in one year and 40 000 less relying on the private system with it likely to "increase significantly" how in the name of God can you claim that this policy doesn't increase waiting times for the public system? Add 600 million in cuts to the above statistic. There is abundance of space in the private system but it is useless space if we can't afford it.

Of course Harneys cuts are related to the colocation scheme. The colocation scheme was fathomed to cut waiting list and now that scheme is increasing waiting list. If the scheme wasn't there in the first place we wouldn't have empty beds in private hospitals and as long ques for trolleys in public hospitals. We would have a level playing field across the board.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 04, 2010, 05:11:26 AM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 03, 2010, 11:17:37 PM

Quote from: Hound on November 03, 2010, 04:08:01 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 02, 2010, 11:21:01 PM
The co located hospitals do not define those who choose to pay and those who choose not to pay. It defines those able to pay and those unable to pay. This does not mean everyone gets the same health care. If they all got the same health care then there would be no debate. Why would anyone pay health insurance if they can get the same health care through the public system?

I never said everyone would get the same healthcare under Harney's plan. But everyone would get better healthcare.

There are 2 or 3 really crap public hospitals, but the vast majority are very good and staffed by excellent doctors and nurses. If they had no overcrowding problems they would give very good healthcare. Those who want to pay more for private hospitals would get more comfort and more privacy.

Do you understand that the overcrowding is set to get worse due to this policy. Less and less people can afford private health care yet the drive towards providing private health care continues, while the drive towards providing public health care diminishes. The private system has grown beyond it's need while the public system is to be further cut by 600 million next month. How can this possibly provide improved health care and shorter waiting list for the public patient?


Those who want to pay is spin for those able to pay.

Serioulsy Zapaista I usually am in agreement with you, but discussion about the health service and the actions of Mary Harney are a totally different thread to this. This is a thread about an asault, not the health service. I agree we should have this debate in a different thread where I probably will be in agreement with you.

She didn't throw the paint just because she had too much spare red paint and had to get rid of it. It was in protest at the Health Service. So discussing the motive is, as Hound says, well within the remit of the thread.

So we have 98% of those on private insurance maintaining it - that's damn high considering. Now if only we could get those private patients all treated in private hospitals and free up the public hospitals for the public patients.

Are you trying to say that the 2% who have given it up have done so because of the colocation policy rather than the economy, and that they wouldnt have given it up had the poilcy not been thought of?? Otherwise I can't see how you can say this policy increases waiting lists!!

"An abundance of space in the private system" is just not true. The existing profitable private hospitals are seeking to expand their offerings and hospitals. There will be privately funded construction work on private hospitals in 2011.

From time to time of course, space opens up in private hospitals in certain areas, and then the National Treatment Purchase Fund is used to allow public patients be treated in private hospitals (but again not even close to the number of private patients who get treated in public hospitals). Again if more space is opened up in private hospitals this avenue could be used a lot more to reduce waiting lists.

Just to be clear, I never once said this was the perfect solution. But its one of the best ideas we've had in a long while. And would definitely make things better for the patient that they would be without it.

I see that's were we differ. You see 98% holding private insurance (last year with no renewal figures or projections of renewal figures) and I see 40,000 people. We are just different that way I suppose.

In the past year, the company i work for have been involved in 5 private hospital projects around the country. The efficiency with which these hospitals operate is unbelievable, all state of the art equipment and highly trained staff. a thin layer of admin holds it all together. We have recently completed a hospital in the south of the country, which was a vacant office block previously in  to a state of the art 75 bed hospital, with operating theatres, x-ray, cat scan, computer monitored infection control. Total lenght of the project 6 months, total 350 million. if this was to happen in the HSE, it would take ten years, costs would spiral and all the staff transfered would require relocation money, travelling money and os on ( i know this as i have been involved in HSE projects also, one example, 10 beds were unable to open as there were not enough funding, but a staff relaxation garden was added at a cost of 200K plus, as the unions demanded it as part of the terms for the staff to move into the new building). If this is private healthcare versus public healthcare, then there is no debate really. A lot of these private beds end up in the public system any way through the various schemes so the bed capacity thorugh out the entire health system is in reality increasing.

Quote from: Hound on November 04, 2010, 10:10:53 AM
Are you trying to say that the 2% who have given it up have done so because of the colocation policy rather than the economy, and that they wouldnt have given it up had the poilcy not been thought of?? Otherwise I can't see how you can say this policy increases waiting lists!!

I'm saying that they are now reliant on a public system that is already struggling. The projection was that takers of private insurance would increase with no plan in place for the reverse. We are arguing the 'two tier system'.

Quote"An abundance of space in the private system" is just not true. The existing profitable private hospitals are seeking to expand their offerings and hospitals. There will be privately funded construction work on private hospitals in 2011.

That's the projection following through. The demand is decreasing unless the tax payer pays for there use. Maybe we will have to buy back these hospitals eventually.

QuoteFrom time to time of course, space opens up in private hospitals in certain areas, and then the National Treatment Purchase Fund is used to allow public patients be treated in private hospitals (but again not even close to the number of private patients who get treated in public hospitals). Again if more space is opened up in private hospitals this avenue could be used a lot more to reduce waiting lists

.

At the expence of the tax payer and straight into the hand of the private hospital. It's double tacation again and it's no wonder there is a demand for more private hospitals. Not only did they get the land for free but when they have empty beds the state will fill them.

QuoteJust to be clear, I never once said this was the perfect solution. But its one of the best ideas we've had in a long while. And would definitely make things better for the patient that they would be without it.

Just to address An Gaeilgoir, i'm not saying that the private hospitals are not of high quality. Many of thewm are fantastic hospitals. I am saying the two tier system is wrong.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 04, 2010, 12:57:05 PM

Quote from: Hound on November 04, 2010, 10:10:53 AM
Are you trying to say that the 2% who have given it up have done so because of the colocation policy rather than the economy, and that they wouldnt have given it up had the poilcy not been thought of?? Otherwise I can't see how you can say this policy increases waiting lists!!

I'm saying that they are now reliant on a public system that is already struggling. The projection was that takers of private insurance would increase with no plan in place for the reverse. We are arguing the 'two tier system'.

Quote"An abundance of space in the private system" is just not true. The existing profitable private hospitals are seeking to expand their offerings and hospitals. There will be privately funded construction work on private hospitals in 2011.

That's the projection following through. The demand is decreasing unless the tax payer pays for there use. Maybe we will have to buy back these hospitals eventually.

QuoteFrom time to time of course, space opens up in private hospitals in certain areas, and then the National Treatment Purchase Fund is used to allow public patients be treated in private hospitals (but again not even close to the number of private patients who get treated in public hospitals). Again if more space is opened up in private hospitals this avenue could be used a lot more to reduce waiting lists

.

At the expence of the tax payer and straight into the hand of the private hospital. It's double tacation again and it's no wonder there is a demand for more private hospitals. Not only did they get the land for free but when they have empty beds the state will fill them.

QuoteJust to be clear, I never once said this was the perfect solution. But its one of the best ideas we've had in a long while. And would definitely make things better for the patient that they would be without it.

Just to address An Gaeilgoir, i'm not saying that the private hospitals are not of high quality. Many of thewm are fantastic hospitals. I am saying the two tier system is wrong.

I have think the two tier system is a bit of a myth to be honest, if public patients are seriously ill they are given the same level of care and priority as private patients, often in private hospitals. It seems to be the more "non- serious" health issues that the public patients lose out on, but which at the same time effect their quality of life, no argument there. I currently pay 172 euros a month for myself, wife and kids private insurance. That is 45 quid a week and yet when my missus had our second child, we were in the public system/ward as the private part of the hospital was full, same level of care in both. 45 quid a week is not massive money luckily in my case, and to be honest  not for a lot of people i think. I know also that for some people 45 euros a week would be the difference between food and the table and not. But i think it is all about priorities,people are making decisions based on their situation every day now, so why should people not have to choose between a night on the tiles/ smoking or  private health care at 45 euros a week. As for people who are really caught in the poverty tray and i mean genuinely caught, free health care without question, but free health care for people who can pay something towards the cost, the days of getting things for free are long gone.  A publicly funded health care system would be great, but with the HSE able to get rid of 4000 staff at 150K a pop, we are a long way from this with our tax base dwindling each week.

Quoteif public patients are seriously ill they are given the same level of care and priority as private patients

I can give you numerous examples from my own family where that statement is simply untrue.

Quotefree health care without question, but free health care for people who can pay something towards the cost, the days of getting things for free are long gone.

People do contribute towards healthcare it's called taxation!!

Quote from: Zapatista on November 04, 2010, 12:57:05 PM
At the expence of the tax payer and straight into the hand of the private hospital. It's double tacation again and it's no wonder there is a demand for more private hospitals. Not only did they get the land for free but when they have empty beds the state will fill them.

You're well able to debate without throwing in the "mistruths", but it seems you can't help it. Or maybe its an arrogant streak that thinks it won't be noticed?

Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on November 04, 2010, 11:43:38 AM
In the past year, the company i work for have been involved in 5 private hospital projects around the country. The efficiency with which these hospitals operate is unbelievable, all state of the art equipment and highly trained staff. a thin layer of admin holds it all together. We have recently completed a hospital in the south of the country, which was a vacant office block previously in  to a state of the art 75 bed hospital, with operating theatres, x-ray, cat scan, computer monitored infection control. Total lenght of the project 6 months, total 350 million. if this was to happen in the HSE, it would take ten years, costs would spiral and all the staff transfered would require relocation money, travelling money and os on ( i know this as i have been involved in HSE projects also, one example, 10 beds were unable to open as there were not enough funding, but a staff relaxation garden was added at a cost of 200K plus, as the unions demanded it as part of the terms for the staff to move into the new building). If this is private healthcare versus public healthcare, then there is no debate really. A lot of these private beds end up in the public system any way through the various schemes so the bed capacity thorugh out the entire health system is in reality increasing.

Totally agree. If we could run the public hospitals like they run the private ones, we'd be a helluva lot better off, but no chance with the power the unions have.

Quote from: Declan on November 04, 2010, 02:13:01 PM

Quoteif public patients are seriously ill they are given the same level of care and priority as private patients

I can give you numerous examples from my own family where that statement is simply untrue.

Quotefree health care without question, but free health care for people who can pay something towards the cost, the days of getting things for free are long gone.

People do contribute towards healthcare it's called taxation!!

And Declan i can only go on my experiences regarding seriously ill family members in the public heatlh sector. As for your second point on taxation, look at where our taxation is going in the public health care system 4000 redundancies @ 150K a pop, retire at 50 full pension for the rest of your days, union strangulation of each and every new work practice introduced. I pay 45 euros a week as it is important for me and my family to have better quality health care. I sacrifice something else to pay this as it is a priority for me versus other things. It is my choice, as for taxation look around you for christs sake, billions been pumped in to our public system for a population of 4 million, if half of that was given to efficient private health care providers, would we have a better system, in my opinion from dealing with both the private and public system from a commercial and medical prospective the answer is yes without doubt.

Quote from: Hound on November 04, 2010, 02:13:35 PM
You're well able to debate without throwing in the "mistruths", but it seems you can't help it. Or maybe its an arrogant streak that thinks it won't be noticed?

I take it back.
At a steal then. Millions lost on tax breaks for the developers of private hospitals.

I don't think I'm arrogant.

Is that the only issue with my post?

Gaeilgoir - I'm not disagreeing with your analysis of where the taxation is going but when I hear statements like free health care and the corresponding link to people being able to afford to pay for it I just get annoyed.

Also in a grown up society that actually gives a shit about it's citizens it would be organised properly to produce a more equitable system. This Govt has a simple ideology of public bad private good and that has been a deliberate policy which to my mind is just wrong.

QuoteI sacrifice something else to pay this as it is a priority for me versus other things

And I'm sure you are not alone in that and fair play to you but to my mind that you actually have to do something like that to get decent healthcare is outrageous in today's society.

Quoteif half of that was given to efficient private health care providers

Unfortunately if you take that to it's logical conclusion you end up in a situation like the States.

To me the middle ground is the system that seems to operate reasonably well in most of Western Europe.

I have worked on projects in Belgium and lads working for us got injured and had to go to hospital/ doctor/dentist and it would make you weep to see the standards, efficency and equipment/staff they use over there, simply out of this world. But the health system is not strangled like it is here by all the vested interests, both union wise and medically. The belgium people pay massive taxation to cover their system and it works unbelievely well. My point is that i pay and extra 45 quid a week  to get a similar system here and if it was worked out i'm sure the lad in Belgium is paying a similar amount out of his wages to access his system albeit a public system. I dont want to see a similar system as the US have, not by a long shot as the most needy in society there are basically sent to the vets clinic instead of a hospital. But if the private health sector in this country keeps going the way it is, it will only be a matter of time that competition between private hospitals will increase, private health insurance costs will come down and the big lumbering HSE with all its problems will be told to shape up or Govt. money will start to move towards the private sector hospitals.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 04, 2010, 02:29:02 PM

Quote from: Hound on November 04, 2010, 02:13:35 PM
You're well able to debate without throwing in the "mistruths", but it seems you can't help it. Or maybe its an arrogant streak that thinks it won't be noticed?

I take it back.
At a steal then. Millions lost on tax breaks for the developers of private hospitals.

A c'mon Zap, you've some neck. Do you have any idea how much they are looking for in terms of up-front payment, annual lease/concession payment and annual profit share payment?

No?

Its a long long way from a steal. Some potential operators thought it was too expensive and made it non viable, so they dropped out. Others think they can still turn a profit, but to say its a steal is absurd.

And developers of private hospitals have not got a penny in special tax breaks.
The tax breaks, when they were in, were quite narrow. Nobody involved in the running/operating/development/construction of the hospital could avail. And also the tax allowances could only be used against rental income and not against any other income such as salary, dividends, gains, etc - so it was very difficult to source investors. 

Under the Finance Act 2001, substantial tax exemptions are allowed for the building and refurbishment of buildings used as private hospitals. In practice, this means a top-rate taxpayer investing 1m qualifies for a tax break of 410,000 over seven years

"There's a number of schemes marketing these investments in private hospitals to highincome individuals like lawyers and consultants, " says Labour Party spokeswoman on finance Joan Burton. "Potentially, we are building up to 30 hospitals with a hundred beds or less in each of them. If you take it that they cost 30bn, the tax write-off, at 40%, comes to more than 1.2bn. A lot of the very rich people who benefited from the car-park tax reliefs are going to benefit from this too.

http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2007/sep/30/what-happens-when-our-healthcare-becomes-dependent/

Councillor guilty of Harney assault

A Dublin councillor has been found guilty of assaulting former minister for health Mary Harney by throwing red paint over her last November.

Ms Harney had paint thrown at her, covering parts of her clothes, neck, chest and hands, during a sod-turning ceremony for a new primary care and mental health unit at Cherry Orchard Hospital in west Dublin, on November 1st.

Louise Minihan, 29-year-old councillor from Knock Riada, Chapelizod, in Dublin, who is a member of the socialist republican Éirígí party, had pleaded not guilty to assaulting the former health minister and criminal damage to her clothing, which were worth €600 to €800.

Judge Ann Watkin heard at the Dublin District Court that Minihan accepted the facts of the case but claimed she had been engaging in a "political protest".

After being found guilty, the councillor, a mother of one, who earns €17,500 a year, refused to do community service or to make a donation to a charity nominated by Ms Harney, because she wanted to "stand over her actions."

Judge Watkin said Minihan had "no excuse" and she had "wasted" tax payers' money through legal aid fees and court time.

For the criminal damage offence, the judge imposed a two month term which she suspended on condition the defendant keeps the peace for the next 12 months. In relation to the assault, Judge Watkin fined Minihan €1,500 which must be paid within a year or she will face a seven day jail term in default.

"People are entitled to protest but are not entitled to do that," the judge said.

"In the case of dress and coat it was not possible for dry cleaners to remove the paint," she said adding that Minihan caused €600 to €800 worth of damages to her clothes.

She said she would not accept compensation from Minihan, but would prefer a donation to charity.

In cross-examination, defence solicitor Kieran Conway put it to her that his client's motive was to protest and her actions were not personal.

Ms Harney replied: "I do not think it is an acceptable form of protest in a democracy."

Minihan, who has no previous criminal convictions, opted not to go into evidence and was found guilty.

A bit coincidental that this came up today, a cynical person could think that maybe a political party with connections in the legal world (perhaps the party was involved in making appointments in those circles) could have arranged that this case was heard today in order that people would remember just how volatile those republicans could be.  It would be a good away around the moratorium.

I dont think you would have to be cynical to come up with that conclusion.

€800 worth of clothes on Mary Harness???

Quote from: All of a Sludden on February 25, 2011, 11:25:24 PM
I dont think you would have to be cynical to come up with that conclusion.

€800 worth of clothes on Mary Harness???

Not surprising, look how much material is needed.

Quote from: All of a Sludden on February 25, 2011, 11:25:24 PM
I dont think you would have to be cynical to come up with that conclusion.

€800 worth of clothes on Mary Harness???

How many of the great unwashed go around wearing that much money.

QuoteHow many of the great unwashed go around wearing that much money.

I am not a particular admirer of Harney, but people expect ministers performing official duties to be well dressed.

This particular form of protest showed a complete lack of imagination, but then destruction is par for the course for Éirígí .

Ms Minihan was jailed today for non payment of fines.

Quote from: All of a Sludden on July 18, 2012, 06:10:17 PM
Ms Minihan was jailed today for non payment of fines.

Good.