To me he should be held accountable for the drugging, sodomy and rape of a then 13 year old child. Your thoughts?
SHOULD Roman Polanski be extradited to the US over his statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl in Los Angeles in March 1977? It's an interesting legal question. But it's not the question that is driving the trans-Atlantic furore that followed the film director's arrest in Switzerland last weekend.
Instead, various prejudices and unresolved battles are being projected on to l'affaire Polanski, robbing it of its legal complexities and turning it into a proxy culture war in which clapped-out conservatives and disoriented liberals are hurling intellectual (and not-so-intellectual) grenades at one another.
Polanski, the Polish-French maker of some decent films (Chinatown, Rosemary's Baby, The Pianist) and some awful ones too (Frantic, The Dance of the Vampires), pleaded guilty in a Los Angeles court in 1977 to having sexual intercourse with a minor.
On March 10, 1977, then 44, he had taken Samantha Gailey, a 13-year-old child model, to the home of Jack Nicholson in Mulholland, California, where he said he was going to take photographs of her for the French edition of Vogue. After taking the photos, he gave Gailey champagne and a sedative and performed oral sex, intercourse and sodomy on her while she said: "No, I don't want to do this." The original charges against Polanski were "rape by use of drugs, sodomy, and a lewd and lascivious act with a child under the age of 14". As part of a plea bargain Polanski got it reduced to "sexual intercourse with a minor".
When he realised that even this charge could land him in jail, he fled the US.
But the newspaper commentary and feverish diplomatic activity that greeted his arrest in Switzerland have not been concerned with the facts of the case, the question of legal precedents or the issue of justice.
Instead, Polanski has been turned into a symbol. For conservatives, still convinced that the 1960s are the root of all evil, he is symbolic of the perversions allegedly unleashed by the naked, hippie, free-love liberations of the countercultural period, with his rape of a 13-year-old girl seen virtually as the logical end product of legalising drug use and encouraging people to be sexually experimental.
For liberals he is a symbol of tortured European artistry who is being victimised by an ugly and prudish America. For US officials, Polanski symbolises European degeneracy and they fantasise that returning him to an American jail will be a victory for Reaganite decency over French moral turpitude.
For French officials, meanwhile, Polanski is a symbol of Europe's gallant recovery from its dark past (Polanski and his family, Polish Jews, were persecuted during the Holocaust), who is being tortured anew by "the darker side of America, the side that scares us all".
Just as Mia Farrow's Rosemary was a vessel for the devil in Rosemary's Baby, so Polanski has been turned into a vessel for all sorts of political jibber-jabber today.
It is striking how quickly the discussion of what Polanski, one man, did to Gailey, one girl, twists and turns into a discussion about competing moral values and even clashing national standards. For 60s-baiting conservatives, Polanski has long been a rotting symbol of everything that is wrong with that decade.
Both Polanski's experience of a terrible crime in 1969 and his execution of a crime in 1977 are held up as evidence of the darker side of the 60s and why a diet of sexual looseness, rock'n'roll and drugs is a Bad Thing.
In 1969, Polanski's wife Sharon Tate, a beautiful actress, was brutally murdered by Charles Manson's cult, the Family. Family members stabbed to death Tate and four others at Polanski's home in California while he was away; Tate was 8 1/2 months pregnant.
That crime, carried out by a tiny cult of weird hippies, has been cited by US conservatives as the neat conclusion to a decade in which traditional values had collapsed under the weight of a new generation that was less respectful than its 50s forebears; it was the "dark side of the California dream", as one writer argued, a product of the "political, social and cultural turbulence of the 1960s".
The Manson crimes have been analysed more than any other serial-killing episodes in US history because they have been elevated from the realm of crime to the world of politics and morality, used by conservatives to absolve themselves of any responsibility for the collapse of traditional values in the 60s (instead it was all the fault of the Beatles, the Beach Boys, drugs and other things loved by Manson) and to depict sexual liberation and social experimentation as having necessarily brutal consequences.
Yet just as Polanski was a victim of alleged 60s excesses, so he was a rapacious product of those excesses, too. Any sympathy for Polanski dried up following his conviction for unlawful intercourse in 1977. This, too, conservatives argued, was part of the degeneracy of the American west coast in the mid to late-20th century; it sprang from a determination to "push back the boundaries of sexual liberation", as one report said this week.
Some American law enforcers and right-wing commentators seem to imagine that having Polanski returned to the US will finally end the odious influence of the 60s on society. Under the headline "Why we dislike the French" one conservative columnist asks how liberal Europe can "support a child rapist".
Yet if this attempt to write off 60s sexual liberation (some of which was progressive, some of which was solipsistic) on the back of Polanski's past is bad, then the defence of Polanski by European government officials and commentators is even worse.
They are motivated not by anything remotely related to legal norms or questions of justice but by a snobbish anti-Americanism in which Polanski (who is probably a bit of a creep) becomes recast as a paragon of European decency against hung-up America.
So determined are some liberal observers to use l'affaire Polanski to get one over on the US that they have even forgotten about their normal role of stoking up hysterical panics about pedophiles and have re-depicted Polanski's encounter with Gailey as just an over-exuberant heavy-petting session. European liberals rallied to Polanski's defence against what Frederic Mitterrand, nephew of the former French president and a friend of Polanski, described as a senseless and outrageous arrest that springs from "the darker side of America, the one that scares us all".
In short, Polanski is not merely being pursued under an old legalistic arrest warrant, the kind that exists for many fugitives, but is the European victim of evil America.
One French commentator says the US is "acting out some kind of prudish revenge" against a "great talent who never abided by American rules". Here, Polanski's actions in 1977 are presented as a bit of rule-breaking and anyone who thinks he should be punished for them is clearly an un-arty prude.
But whatever you think of the arrest warrant against Polanski and the motivations of US law enforcers, it is not prudish to think that performing oral sex and sodomy on a drunk 13-year-old is unacceptable behaviour.
The difference between the liberal media reaction to Polanski and to Gary Glitter - the big-haired glam-rock star who in 1997 was discovered to have child porn on his computer - is striking. Where Glitter has been turned by the British media into a symbol of the pedophilic evil that is allegedly stalking our land, Polanski is presented as the misunderstood artist who is the real victim here, of a "money-grabbing American mother and a publicity-hungry Californian judge".
So keen are some liberals to mark themselves out as Not American that they are effectively saying: "Polanski might be a pedophile, but he's our pedophile."
But perhaps the worst aspect of the Polanski affair is the competition of victimhoods. It is testimony to the domination of the victim culture in society that Polanski haters and Polanski defenders have used the language of victimology to make their case.
For many American and British commentators this is all about Gailey, whom they have transformed into the archetypal victim of the alleged great evil of our time, child abuse. "Remember: Polanski raped a child", says a headline in Salon online.
For European observers, by contrast, Polanski's actions can be explained by his victimised past, especially during the Holocaust. We have to understand his "life tragedies" and how they moulded him, says one filmmaker.
Anne Applebaum, a US commentator who spends much of her time in Europe, says Polanski fled the US in 1978 because of his "understandable fear of irrational punishment. Polanski's mother died in Auschwitz. His father survived in Mauthausen. He himself survived the Krakow ghetto." (Applebaum fails to disclose that she is married to Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski, who is campaigning against Polanski's extradition.)
This spat in victimology confirms that the politics of victimhood dominates debate on both sides of the Atlantic, but in the Anglo-American sphere it is the victim of child abuse that is most sacrosanct, while in Europe it is the victims of the Holocaust who enjoy the most unquestioned moral authority, to the extent that Polanski's fleeing of the US can be excused as a latent reaction by a tortured man to the horrors of Auschwitz.
L'affaire Polanski has become a culture war that dare not speak its name, a pale imitation of the debates about values that have emerged at various times during the past 50 years.
As a result we are none the wiser about the legal usefulness of 30-year-old arrest warrants or contemporary extradition laws, as observers have instead turned Polanski into a ventriloquist's dummy or a voodoo doll for the purposes of letting off cheap moral steam.
Brendan O'Neill edits online magazine Spiked. His satire on the green movement, Can I Recycle My Granny and 39 Other Eco-Dilemmas, is published by Hodder & Stoughton.
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Of course he should be held accountable.
Long post, short answer. Yes.
I think he was held accountable for it to some extent. He is being sent back because he skipped out on a 90 day psychiatric treatment programme of which he served half the time. the other thing is the judge was supposed to impose a suspended sentence as part of the plea bargain but then decided not to go along with the original agreement. So Polanski decided to skip town back to Europe. The thing is if Polanski goes back to America he will probably appeal and this will mean a re trial. Given that he pleaded guilty originally what will happen then if he decides not to plead guilty.
Unlike Whoppie Goldberg I don't believe in "rape rape".
He should be sent back to the States and do serious time for what he did.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on October 02, 2009, 11:12:02 PM
Unlike Whoppie Goldberg I don't believe in "rape rape".
He should be sent back to the States and do serious time for what he did.
Yes, that's exactly what should happen him
I used to have a serious obsession for Charles Manson and The Family :o
Quote from: Capt Pat on October 02, 2009, 10:51:58 PM
I think he was held accountable for it to some extent. He is being sent back because he skipped out on a 90 day psychiatric treatment programme of which he served half the time. the other thing is the judge was supposed to impose a suspended sentence as part of the plea bargain but then decided not to go along with the original agreement. So Polanski decided to skip town back to Europe. The thing is if Polanski goes back to America he will probably appeal and this will mean a re trial. Given that he pleaded guilty originally what will happen then if he decides not to plead guilty.
There was no trial - he pleaded out the first time. The judge was under no obligation to honour any deal reached in the plea bargain. Polanski had a right to change his plea to "not guilty" and face and defend himself in a trial, not to abscond because the judge didn't like the deal he made.
Court reveals Polanski settlement
The film-maker has not set foot in the US since 1978
Roman Polanski agreed to pay his victim of sexual assault $500,000, 15 years after he fled the US, according to court documents released to the media.
The French-Polish director is being held in Switzerland on a US arrest warrant over his 1977 conviction for unlawful sex with a 13-year-old girl.
The confidential deal between Mr Polanski and the victim, Samantha Geimer, was reached in October 1993.
It was disclosed because of a two-year struggle to get the film-maker to pay.
Mr Polanski - who faces extradition to the US - was detained in Switzerland as he travelled from France to collect a lifetime achievement award at the Zurich Film Festival.
The last court filing in August 1996 stated that he owed Ms Geimer $604,416.22, including interest. The documents were made available to the media on Friday.
The court records did not reveal whether the 76-year-old director had ever paid, according to the Associated Press.
The director pleaded guilty to unlawful sex with an under-age girl following a plea bargain - he had originally been charged with six offences including rape and sodomy.
Victim sued
He left the US in 1978 before he could be sentenced and has not returned to the country since.
David Finkle, the film-maker's lawyer, said he was unable to recall details of the case and declined comment. Ms Geimer and her family have also been unavailable for comment.
She sued Mr Polanski in December 1988, alleging sexual assault, infliction of emotional distress and seduction.
But in January this year she asked a US court to drop charges against him, saying the continued publication of details "causes harm to me, my husband and children".
Schwarzenegger speaks out
The arrest of Mr Polanski, who won an Oscar in 2002 for The Pianist, a harrowing story of Nazi-occupied Warsaw, has prompted an outcry among some politicians and 0Hollywood heavyweights.
But on Friday, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger said the film-maker should not get special treatment because he is a "big-time movie director".
A petition has been signed by film-makers including Pedro Almodovar and Stephen Frears, and actors including Monica Bellucci and Fanny Ardant, expressing dismay at Mr Polanski's arrest.
Other Hollywood luminaries, including film producer Harvey Weinstein, have called for Mr Polanski's release.
On Tuesday, US prosecutors said the 76-year-old had been on an Interpol "wanted list" for years.
The law shouldn't make any dispensation for the famous although I do question them pursuing a man in his 70s.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 03, 2009, 11:36:58 PM
The law shouldn't make any dispensation for the famous although I do question them pursuing a man in his 70s.
There are men in their 70s still at that child abuse. can't see why you should get to a certian age and then it be forgot about. Should be held accountable and brought to court and maybe then old age/ health taken into account when being sentenced.
Fcuk him.
Crime = Time
Imagine it was your daughter / sister / mother
Since when does drugging, raping and sodomising any woman, let alone a 13 year old girl become something for liberals to debate the morals and rightness / wrongness of.
If he did it he needs jail for 20+ whether he's 20 or 90
Why?
I thought he was charged with underage consensual sex and he fled the country after a bit of shady goings between the prosecutor and judge?
QuoteWhat?
Makes more sense if you hadn't deleted / edited your last post
Quote from: tyroneman on October 04, 2009, 01:07:21 AM
QuoteWhat?
Makes more sense if you hadn't deleted / edited your last post
I know- I was messing about..being a mischevious Fox. Nothing personal...a bit bored. Does nobody remember the whole Charles Manson cult who murdered Polanski's wife and all that. One of the girls involved died last week after 40 years in prison. Manson on youtube is unreal. A mad man.
Here we go...
LAST WEEK LOS ANGELES - "Susan Atkins, a follower of cult leader Charles Manson whose remorseless witness stand confession to killing pregnant actress Sharon Tate in 1969 shocked the world, has died. She was 61 and had been suffering from brain cancer.
Atkins' death comes less than a month after a parole board turned down the terminally ill woman's last chance at freedom on Sept. 2. She was brought to the hearing on a gurney and slept through most of it.
California Department of Corrections spokeswoman Terry Thornton said that Atkins died late Thursday night. She had been diagnosed with brain cancer in 2008, had a leg amputated and was given only a few months to live."
Sharon Tate was eight and a half months pregnant.. yer man Polanski's wife.
Helter Skelter... and all that. Fascinating story how Manson controlled all these girls. They reckon he is the most dangerous man alive as he has such power over people like Hitler etc... anyway...am getting off the subject a bit...
Charles Manson wrote a Beach Boys song. He's also said to be a Geelic Football fan and follower of the Clogherhead Dreadnoughts .
Quote from: Hardy on October 04, 2009, 10:52:53 AM
Charles Manson wrote a Beach Boys song. He's also said to be a Geelic Football fan and follower of the Clogherhead Dreadnoughts .
At last a Manson groupie :o You see the blood was smearded on the walls on the house and said, 'Helter skelter' and 'Pigs'... Helter Skelter was a Beatles song or else lyrics... but Charlie boy reckoned the message in Revelations came thro the Beatles lyrics. Amazing how that acid worked. So was like the Four Horsemen of the Apocolyse wa sthe 4 Baetles and bible talked on breastplates and scorpions tails which Charlie took to be their guitars and their electric cords from them. Then he brainwashed his followers and Tex Watson ( all American boy) and the girls went to work for Charlie. Was horrenous wat they did of course... jees! but fascinating character. Pure wickness...
Best is, he didn't do any of the killings as in jail for life for conspiracy to murder...
Charles Manson quotes: "Look down at me and you see a fool;
look up at me and you see a god;
look straight at me and you see yourself"
"You know, a long time ago being crazy meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy."
"These children that come at you with knives, they are your children. You taught them. I didn't teach them. I just tried to help them stand up."
"I'm not your executioner. I'm not your devil and I'm not your God. I'm Charles Manson."
"Believe me, if I started murdering people... there'd be none of you left!" ...no doubt :o
He agreed a settlement with the girl and then reneged on the payment.
Quote from: Bogball XV on October 04, 2009, 12:56:06 PM
He agreed a settlement with the girl and then reneged on the payment.
I know, Manson was a bad b*****d :o
Just reading this thread has thrown up another question in my mind.
With Nazi criminals etc - is it worth hounding down 90 year old men to throw them in prison for basically doing what they were told in a war situation ?
Quote from: haveaharp on October 05, 2009, 11:36:26 AM
Just reading this thread has thrown up another question in my mind.
With Nazi criminals etc - is it worth hounding down 90 year old men to throw them in prison for basically doing what they were told in a war situation ?
Even wars have laws, and I'd imagine that the ninety year old men that people have gone to the bother of tracking down are guilty of breaking a considerable number of these.
Always been interesting to me that polanski (the rapist of a child) wasn't in the Tate house that night. While not condoning the murders in any way, part of me hates that the "survivor" wasn't taken from this earth before he hurt that girl.
I'd hardly have missed the pianist if it was never made anyway.
Quote from: haveaharp on October 05, 2009, 11:36:26 AM
Just reading this thread has thrown up another question in my mind.
With Nazi criminals etc - is it worth hounding down 90 year old men to throw them in prison for basically doing what they were told in a war situation ?
Yes. As long as they draw breath they should be held accountable for their despicable actions.
Being at war does not relieve you of the obligation of humanity, yes people kill in war and get killed, but to starve an entire race whilst forcing them into camps and then gassing them to death goes far beyond what people should do for any cause, they knew it was wrong and they did it anyway, they should pay and be hunted down until they die the scumbags.
Quote from: stew on October 05, 2009, 08:26:29 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 05, 2009, 11:36:26 AM
Just reading this thread has thrown up another question in my mind.
With Nazi criminals etc - is it worth hounding down 90 year old men to throw them in prison for basically doing what they were told in a war situation ?
Yes. As long as they draw breath they should be held accountable for their despicable actions.
Being at war does not relieve you of the obligation of humanity, yes people kill in war and get killed, but to starve an entire race whilst forcing them into camps and then gassing them to death goes far beyond what people should do for any cause, they knew it was wrong and they did it anyway, they should pay and be hunted down until they die the scumbags.
Funny how the victors are often blameless isn't it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMG2ON092GM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMG2ON092GM)
Chris Rock hits nail on head
Quote from: stew on October 05, 2009, 08:26:29 PM
Yes. As long as they draw breath they should be held accountable for their despicable actions.
Being at war does not relieve you of the obligation of humanity, yes people kill in war and get killed, but to starve an entire race whilst forcing them into camps and then gassing them to death goes far beyond what people should do for any cause, they knew it was wrong and they did it anyway, they should pay and be hunted down until they die the scumbags.
Why, for revenge?
Revenge is just one motive out of many possible motives involved, in chasing after people charged with horrible crimes against humanity.
This Polanski case could be bigger than OJ's first trial. Any DA assigned will be creaming himself.
Polanski's original guilty plea doesn't have any value after the judge reneged on the plea bargain deal and the judge's mistakes have been well documented.
I wouldn't bet against Polanski walking scot free eventually.
Quote from: Bogball XV on October 05, 2009, 10:44:49 PM
Quote from: stew on October 05, 2009, 08:26:29 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 05, 2009, 11:36:26 AM
Just reading this thread has thrown up another question in my mind.
With Nazi criminals etc - is it worth hounding down 90 year old men to throw them in prison for basically doing what they were told in a war situation ?
Yes. As long as they draw breath they should be held accountable for their despicable actions.
Being at war does not relieve you of the obligation of humanity, yes people kill in war and get killed, but to starve an entire race whilst forcing them into camps and then gassing them to death goes far beyond what people should do for any cause, they knew it was wrong and they did it anyway, they should pay and be hunted down until they die the scumbags.
Funny how the victors are often blameless isn't it.
Where the fcuk did I saw the allies were blameless?
Last time I check the allies did not herd people into camps and gas them to death, and al this in the name of a master race.
The way the allies treated Germany after the great war was in part responsible, they stripped the Germans of all of theirt pride and the economic wherewithall to provide for their families, Hitler fed on that.
Is that enough blame for you bogball?
Quote from: stew on October 07, 2009, 05:49:33 PM
Last time I check the allies did not herd people into camps and gas them to death, and al this in the name of a master race.
Perhaps not, but they did line up innocent Germans living in what is not the Czech Rep., shoot them by the dozen and let the bodies float off down the rivers.
War is a terrible thing. Kublai Khan is seen as a great leader. Bollix he was a fekin savage even by the standards of the time. The greeks...the so-called fathers of democracy were savage bastards. Democracy my arse.
I will be extremely surprised if Polanski is sentenced. The Zionists will see to that. >:(
Closer to home there are dozens of child rapists and sadists from the 60s and 70s who are known but walk free because of the church. We need to get out own house in order first...
before what?
before we can listen to the news and make a comment?
What about this lad?
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Frederic-Mitterrand-I-Paid-Boys-For-Sex-Book-Claim-Prompts-Calls-For-Resignation/Article/200910215402060?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15402060_Frederic_Mitterrand%3A_I_Paid_Boys_For_Sex_Book_Claim_Prompts_Calls_For_Resignation (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Frederic-Mitterrand-I-Paid-Boys-For-Sex-Book-Claim-Prompts-Calls-For-Resignation/Article/200910215402060?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15402060_Frederic_Mitterrand%3A_I_Paid_Boys_For_Sex_Book_Claim_Prompts_Calls_For_Resignation)
This is an old story that has been dug up again because of his support for Polanski. I bet Roman would be better of without this guys support, I mean a follower of Sazkozy supporting you.
am i correct in saying polanski won an oscar for the pianist and done his acceptance speech through satellite and got a standing ovation?
Quote from: Aerlik on October 07, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Quote from: stew on October 07, 2009, 05:49:33 PM
Last time I check the allies did not herd people into camps and gas them to death, and al this in the name of a master race.
Perhaps not, but they did line up innocent Germans living in what is not the Czech Rep., shoot them by the dozen and let the bodies float off down the rivers.
War is a terrible thing. Kublai Khan is seen as a great leader. Bollix he was a fekin savage even by the standards of the time. The greeks...the so-called fathers of democracy were savage b**tards. Democracy my arse.
I will be extremely surprised if Polanski is sentenced. The Zionists will see to that. >:(
WTF? Zionists will get him off?
He will get done one way or another and your zionist comment is ridiculous.
Quote from: stew on October 08, 2009, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: Aerlik on October 07, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Quote from: stew on October 07, 2009, 05:49:33 PM
Last time I check the allies did not herd people into camps and gas them to death, and al this in the name of a master race.
Perhaps not, but they did line up innocent Germans living in what is not the Czech Rep., shoot them by the dozen and let the bodies float off down the rivers.
War is a terrible thing. Kublai Khan is seen as a great leader. Bollix he was a fekin savage even by the standards of the time. The greeks...the so-called fathers of democracy were savage b**tards. Democracy my arse.
I will be extremely surprised if Polanski is sentenced. The Zionists will see to that. >:(
WTF? Zionists will get him off?
He will get done one way or another and your zionist comment is ridiculous.
though it is funny this only came up since bush left office
Quote from: stew on October 08, 2009, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: Aerlik on October 07, 2009, 06:08:05 PM
Quote from: stew on October 07, 2009, 05:49:33 PM
Last time I check the allies did not herd people into camps and gas them to death, and al this in the name of a master race.
Perhaps not, but they did line up innocent Germans living in what is not the Czech Rep., shoot them by the dozen and let the bodies float off down the rivers.
War is a terrible thing. Kublai Khan is seen as a great leader. Bollix he was a fekin savage even by the standards of the time. The greeks...the so-called fathers of democracy were savage b**tards. Democracy my arse.
I will be extremely surprised if Polanski is sentenced. The Zionists will see to that. >:(
WTF? Zionists will get him off?
He will get done one way or another and your zionist comment is ridiculous.
And quite appalling.
I think he meant "the Jews" anyway. He could at least try being an honest bigot.
And Polanksi should face justice for his crime. The "defence" Minister Miterrand among others have put up has been in very poor taste.