FAI...June 2024 Friendlies v Hungary and Portugal

[sid waddell]

Twitter full to the beams tonight with people trying to make this one John Delaney's fault.

Seriously people, have a good long word with yourselves. The CEO of the FAI has no more input into player development than the Easter Bunny.

You might as well blame the Taoiseach.

—-

Right now the manager's role isn't about today. Ireland couldn't qualify for the finals unless there was mass murder in each of their opponents' training camps.

This doesn't mean Kenny is the right person for the job. But if he's brave enough to cull some of the absolute shite (like McClean) from the set up and instead raise the profile of young players to the point that EPL teams might take notice, that's enough. For now.

This. The new FAI are smart enough to realise we are poor. There is a serious group of players coming through - look at Bazunu tonight, many of whom are LoI produced despite the FAI and that takes time.  However Kenny got the gig on the basis he proved with Dundalk he could get blood from a stone, limited players over achieving. We aren't seeing anything like that

Bazunu looked decent last night

But to say we have a serious group of players coming through is a huge case of wishful thinking

Connolly has completely stalled at Brighton
Parrott has scored one senior goal at club level, in League One
Idah is not getting game time at Norwich
Obafemi has fallen off the map
Molumby runs about a lot but will probably be a journeyman at best
Knight is doing well at Derby but had a bad night last night
Cullen is 25 next week so not a youngster
O'Shea might make it but he's a defender, and our real problem is from midfield up
Very difficult to see Jack Byrne making it at a decent level
Conor Coventry is hardly pulling up trees

Most of these players are not getting regular game time, and if they are it's not a high level

There's nothing that would give you much confidence that any of this group are anything more than the next group of Alan Brownes and Conor Hourihanes - at best

[6th sam]

Are there not more kids playing soccer that GAA?

If you play GAA or rugby in Ireland (and you're good enough) there is a clear path to follow from underage/schoolboy level all the way up to inter county/international level.

Soccer doesn't have anything close to that sort of structures for football in this country thanks mainly to mismanagement at the top level by the likes of John Delaney so Ireland doesn't produce quality players for the international side meaning we are relying on clubs in the UK to do the job for us.

Changing the manager of the senior international team won't suddenly mean Ireland has better players to pick from or start producing players for the international dide

What have Roy Keane, Paul.McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran, Seamus Coleman, Jay McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Enda Stevens, Matt Doherty, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Daryl Murphy, David Meyler and so on have in common?

presumably they all played LOi . very good point.

[6th sam]

Much as Delaney must take some of the responsibility it's not all down to him.
Compared to others we are a relatively small country , we have poor weather , poor facilities , and soccer isn't the dominant sport on the streets and fields . We have the additional issue of having access to several strong leagues next door: EPL, Echampionship, Efootball league, Scottish leagues , meaning that relatively speaking , domestic leagues suffer, as most top quality players leave these shores .
The IRFU by contrast to FAI seems to be much better run, and we punch above our weight rugby wise, by having strong domestic teams, amongst other things.
Irish soccer can never regain the success of the 90s as the world demographics of soccer dictate that we are extremely poorly placed to be a competitive soccer nation

I don't buy that. There are lots of small countries doing well on the world stage. Iceland, Norway, Croatia in recent times. Portugal, Belgium and Holland don't have huge populations either. The Irish population has grown hugely in the last 30 years and we've a higher proportion of young people than pretty much every European country.

In all those countries Soccer is much higher profile than Ireland and to my knowledge, have a reasonable standard of domestic leagues. (Iceland punch well above their weight ). I agree with the likes of BB , that domestic soccer has to be promoted . Why do we accept 16 year olds going across the water away from family friends. In most other occupations eg students or tradesmen , you'd only consider going across the water @ 18/19.
There's a welfare issue here particularly for those that don't make it, and come back home , jobless , having spent some of the best years of their lives away from family and friends.

[seafoid]

Are there not more kids playing soccer that GAA?

If you play GAA or rugby in Ireland (and you're good enough) there is a clear path to follow from underage/schoolboy level all the way up to inter county/international level.

Soccer doesn't have anything close to that sort of structures for football in this country thanks mainly to mismanagement at the top level by the likes of John Delaney so Ireland doesn't produce quality players for the international side meaning we are relying on clubs in the UK to do the job for us.

Changing the manager of the senior international team won't suddenly mean Ireland has better players to pick from or start producing players for the international dide

What have Roy Keane, Paul.McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran, Seamus Coleman, Jay McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Enda Stevens, Matt Doherty, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Daryl Murphy, David Meyler and so on have in common?

Roy Keane went from Cobh Ramblers to Forest.They were in the top tier. Look.at any mediocre team.in the EPL now. They are loaded with players from all over the world.TV money means they can buy players from anywhere.

Other countries have better player development systems
England is the wrong country for most Irish players given development possibilities. 

[6th sam]

Are there not more kids playing soccer that GAA?

If you play GAA or rugby in Ireland (and you're good enough) there is a clear path to follow from underage/schoolboy level all the way up to inter county/international level.

Soccer doesn't have anything close to that sort of structures for football in this country thanks mainly to mismanagement at the top level by the likes of John Delaney so Ireland doesn't produce quality players for the international side meaning we are relying on clubs in the UK to do the job for us.

Changing the manager of the senior international team won't suddenly mean Ireland has better players to pick from or start producing players for the international dide

What have Roy Keane, Paul.McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran, Seamus Coleman, Jay McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Enda Stevens, Matt Doherty, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Daryl Murphy, David Meyler and so on have in common?

Roy Keane went from Cobh Ramblers to Forest.They were in the top tier. Look.at any mediocre team.in the EPL now. They are loaded with players from all over the world.TV money means they can buy players from anywhere.

Other countries have better player development systems
England is the wrong country for most Irish players given development possibilities.

Agree

[Baile Brigín 2]

Much as Delaney must take some of the responsibility it's not all down to him.
Compared to others we are a relatively small country , we have poor weather , poor facilities , and soccer isn't the dominant sport on the streets and fields . We have the additional issue of having access to several strong leagues next door: EPL, Echampionship, Efootball league, Scottish leagues , meaning that relatively speaking , domestic leagues suffer, as most top quality players leave these shores .
The IRFU by contrast to FAI seems to be much better run, and we punch above our weight rugby wise, by having strong domestic teams, amongst other things.
Irish soccer can never regain the success of the 90s as the world demographics of soccer dictate that we are extremely poorly placed to be a competitive soccer nation

So how come the underage sides are winnimg cups and highly regarded?

[sid waddell]

Are there not more kids playing soccer that GAA?

If you play GAA or rugby in Ireland (and you're good enough) there is a clear path to follow from underage/schoolboy level all the way up to inter county/international level.

Soccer doesn't have anything close to that sort of structures for football in this country thanks mainly to mismanagement at the top level by the likes of John Delaney so Ireland doesn't produce quality players for the international side meaning we are relying on clubs in the UK to do the job for us.

Changing the manager of the senior international team won't suddenly mean Ireland has better players to pick from or start producing players for the international dide

What have Roy Keane, Paul.McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran, Seamus Coleman, Jay McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Enda Stevens, Matt Doherty, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Daryl Murphy, David Meyler and so on have in common?

Roy Keane went from Cobh Ramblers to Forest.They were in the top tier. Look.at any mediocre team.in the EPL now. They are loaded with players from all over the world.TV money means they can buy players from anywhere.

Other countries have better player development systems
England is the wrong country for most Irish players given development possibilities.

There's a combination of a load factors at play here

Street football has all but disappeared, societal patterns have changed
Poor coaching and structures at youth level
Shit domestic league
Globalisation of English football
Reluctance of Irish youngsters to go the continent due to cultural factors
We don't get any decent players from the diaspora any more
Senior manager out of his depth

[Baile Brigín 2]

Are there not more kids playing soccer that GAA?

If you play GAA or rugby in Ireland (and you're good enough) there is a clear path to follow from underage/schoolboy level all the way up to inter county/international level.

Soccer doesn't have anything close to that sort of structures for football in this country thanks mainly to mismanagement at the top level by the likes of John Delaney so Ireland doesn't produce quality players for the international side meaning we are relying on clubs in the UK to do the job for us.

Changing the manager of the senior international team won't suddenly mean Ireland has better players to pick from or start producing players for the international dide

What have Roy Keane, Paul.McGrath, Ronnie Whelan, Kevin Moran, Seamus Coleman, Jay McClean, Wes Hoolahan, Enda Stevens, Matt Doherty, Kevin Doyle, Shane Long, Daryl Murphy, David Meyler and so on have in common?

Roy Keane went from Cobh Ramblers to Forest.They were in the top tier. Look.at any mediocre team.in the EPL now. They are loaded with players from all over the world.TV money means they can buy players from anywhere.

Other countries have better player development systems
England is the wrong country for most Irish players given development possibilities.

Agreed. But the idea there isn't a pathway from the domestic game to overseas is false.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Much as Delaney must take some of the responsibility it's not all down to him.
Compared to others we are a relatively small country , we have poor weather , poor facilities , and soccer isn't the dominant sport on the streets and fields . We have the additional issue of having access to several strong leagues next door: EPL, Echampionship, Efootball league, Scottish leagues , meaning that relatively speaking , domestic leagues suffer, as most top quality players leave these shores .
The IRFU by contrast to FAI seems to be much better run, and we punch above our weight rugby wise, by having strong domestic teams, amongst other things.
Irish soccer can never regain the success of the 90s as the world demographics of soccer dictate that we are extremely poorly placed to be a competitive soccer nation

I don't buy that. There are lots of small countries doing well on the world stage. Iceland, Norway, Croatia in recent times. Portugal, Belgium and Holland don't have huge populations either. The Irish population has grown hugely in the last 30 years and we've a higher proportion of young people than pretty much every European country.

In all those countries Soccer is much higher profile than Ireland and to my knowledge, have a reasonable standard of domestic leagues. (Iceland punch well above their weight ). I agree with the likes of BB , that domestic soccer has to be promoted . Why do we accept 16 year olds going across the water away from family friends. In most other occupations eg students or tradesmen , you'd only consider going across the water @ 18/19.
There's a welfare issue here particularly for those that don't make it, and come back home , jobless , having spent some of the best years of their lives away from family and friends.

We don't. Thats why it stopped.

Lots of experts not understanding whats actually happening

[sid waddell]

If you're talking about human development, it's not a good idea for players to go to England at 16, because most won't make it, and it can damage them in human terms

But from a production line point of view, if you're purely talking about producing players who will play for the Ireland senior team, players need to be getting out of Ireland ASAP

It's a brutal business and hand holding isn't going to help

Players not being able to go to England until 18 is not going to help the Ireland senior team

Robbie Keane was scoring goals for Wolves in the Championship a month after his 17th birthday

[Baile Brigín 2]

Players not being able to go to England until 18 is not going to help the Ireland senior team

Why not?

[sid waddell]

Who was the last diaspora player who was genuinely good? Walters? Didsy McGoldrick was decent enough I suppose

Our diaspora players used to be Steve Heighway, Mark Lawrenson, Chris Hughton, Tony Galvin, Ray Houghton, John Aldridge, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Sheedy, Andy Townsend, John Sheridan, Tony Cascarino, John Byrne, Alan McLoughlin, Matt Holland, Gary Breen, Kevin Kilbane, Terry Phelan, Jason McAteer, Phil Babb, Alan Kelly

Steve Finnan was a quasi-diaspora player

All of these players made big contributions

Now our diaspora players are Ciaran Clark, Josh Cullen and James Collins

We didn't cap Jack Grealish and Declan Rice in competitive matches when we had the chance

Bit of a mistake, that, thanks Martin

[trileacman]

Much as Delaney must take some of the responsibility it's not all down to him.
Compared to others we are a relatively small country , we have poor weather , poor facilities , and soccer isn't the dominant sport on the streets and fields . We have the additional issue of having access to several strong leagues next door: EPL, Echampionship, Efootball league, Scottish leagues , meaning that relatively speaking , domestic leagues suffer, as most top quality players leave these shores .
The IRFU by contrast to FAI seems to be much better run, and we punch above our weight rugby wise, by having strong domestic teams, amongst other things.
Irish soccer can never regain the success of the 90s as the world demographics of soccer dictate that we are extremely poorly placed to be a competitive soccer nation

Now the f**king weather is to blame. Must be a f**king joy to be steven kenny where everything is at fault except you.

[Ed Ricketts]

Horrible result last night. No defending the manager nor players.

But any criticism should be framed by the context that this is probably the least experienced, least accomplished Irish squad assembled for competitive matches in at least 40 years. They were always going to struggle.

Kenny probably doesn't have what it takes at this level - whether that's the charisma to energise the players, or the in-game smarts, or whatever. But the transition he leads away from hoofball is a noble pursuit, and should continue even if under different leadership. There isn't much to be gained from ditching him before the end of the campaign, which is just over six months away anyway.

Those pining for it should realise that hoofball is not the innate condition of Irish football. It wasn't a trait of senior team in the decades preceding Charlton. It isn't commonplace in the national league. It isn't played by the underage national teams. Most of the current senior team won't have experience of it at club level. It's entirely possible, and logical, to try to send out an Irish team that plays with more variety - and over time it will lead to better results. No team, at national or club level, is achieving anything at the minute playing hoofball - it's a dead philosophy.

Hoofball isn't even really a style of football - it's what you're left with when after abandoning all efforts to play with any particular style. When you just send men out to sit in tight banks of four, hoof everything, and try to nick goals from set-plays. It's debatable whether it ever really did anything for Ireland, in the last 20 years anyway. We qualified for two tournaments in that time - once after beating Estonia, and once by finishing 3rd in qualification but sneaking through after the championships were expanded. And in recent qualifying campaigns it had stopped working altogether - we just drew a pile of games, inevitably finished third in qualifying, and achieved nothing.

The rest of this qualifying campaign should be about exposing the younger lads to international football. Bazunu, O'Shea, Collins, Molumphy, Knight, Smallbone, Parrott, Idah, Connolly, Obafemi. Expand options for next qualifying campaign and hope that some of these boys press on with their clubs. This was probably the intention anyway, but you'd hope that there isn't too much pressure to revert to the likes of Hendrick, Christie, McClean, etc. in pursuit of some now irrelevant results.

[sid waddell]

Players not being able to go to England until 18 is not going to help the Ireland senior team

Why not?

Because the earlier you expose yourself to a higher standard, the more you have a chance of developing your game to a higher level

Robbie Keane was torturing Argentina when he was three months off his 18th birthday - I don't think it would have helped him to be stuck in the League of Ireland until the summer of 1998

Given that Irish youngsters find it harder to thrive in England these days due to the globalisation of the game there, I'm all for improving the League of Ireland as an alternative player pathway, but I don't think we should fool ourselves that it will be a substitute for the traditional pathway of young lads going to England

The reality is that the LOI is probably GM Vauxhall Conference standard - or whatever it's called these days

Rovers and Dundalk would struggle in League Two I think