Messages

Throwing my 2 cents into the argument;

From my experiences with Americans, they are intelligent enough to draw a distinction between foregin policy makers / politicians, and the actual solder, and the sacrifices that solders make to serve the county.

So as big a mistake as Iraq and Vietnam was from a policy / strategy point of view, Americans view the sacrifices that the individual solder makes as the same as WWII in Europe on the beaches and in the Asia Pacific in the islands.

They also understand what war does to a man, i.e. the dehumanization of the enemy and morality, and so tend to respect the physical and physiological demands war places on solders.

So Americans do not think its a double standard when holding politicians accountable for bad leadership / policy, while respecting the solder who defends the policy which significant sacrifices.

Correct! It's a joke and won't happen.

The only way forward in my view is to scrap Sigerson and Fitzgibbon or only allow non county players play college football. it would stop the usual colleges chasing county players too to the detriment of college player development.

But is this not the real issue that needs to be addressed. The county managers are a law onto themselves. They are only interested in short term win at all costs and not really interested in the long term best interests of players.

Regarding county students, can someone answer the following question? What is in the student's best interests, Managing the pressure of studying / exams combined with significant travelling to county training (in some cases, combined 3-4 hr travelling and 2 hrs training )and financial issues. Verses getting a scholarship, managing the pressures of exam / studying and training on campus, which usually means 2 hrs training and back to the books?

If we were being honest, the answer is clear, a player with a scholarship, without the strain of significant travelling, is far better off.

But we put the interests of a county manager before a student?

Regarding the amount of scholarships offered, and the benefits provided, this needs to be regulated by Croke Park to ensure there is a level playing field.

Regarding other points
The county season needs to be condensed,
The amount of competitions needs to be optimized and aligned between club, county and schools
Real rules need to be drawn up and adhered too
An a serious attempt to provide a clear rules for training for youth right up to senior to prevent over use injuries.

I live in the states now, and one sport that impresses me with training / playing rules is baseball. They have youth match and weekly pitch count rules for pitchers as well as progressive pitch selection rules through the age groups. The rule is enforced, and if a coach is found breaking the rules, then serious punishments are handed out. What they have in place is a structure for development for pitchers. The result, a system which is designed to manage player development and prevent overuse. Logical and effective.

The GAA need a top down governance process. Mandate the type, timing and amount of competitions that are run in each county provinces, and the rules for players availability etc. Then enforce them

Read in one of the papers the schedule for Jack Guiney at DIT and playing intercounty for Wexford, a serious bit of training and traveling by anyones standards.

It seems he's on a scholarship and tied to playing for the college as part of that, so if there's a ban on intercouty players taking part in Sigerson or Fitzgibbon then I'd presume they'd stop offering scholarships to intercounty players!

orrrr, that if an inter county player has a scholarship, then he fully commits to the college, and neither plays or trains for the county until the college season is over.

If an intercounty player doesn't have a scholarship, then he plays for the county only.

and, should we not limit the amount of scholarships that each college can award.... max of 8 / 9 per year

[January and March]

Proposals include:
•   Restructuring fixture programme between January and March to avoid overlapping competitions
•   Examine changing U21 grade to U20 in football and hurling
•   Removing colleges from pre-season inter-county competitions•   The establishment of GPA representation on the GAA Higher Education group to facilitate engagement with key stakeholders such as managers and educators•   Initiate education fundraising campaign to increase support for those who need it most
•   Support the GAA's development of player welfare mentor position at county level to help manage training and playing commitments of student county players representing multiple teams

If you consider these proposals a debate stater, then they're great. But I don't think any of these proposals will help players in any way.
For example;
1 - Restructuring fixture programme between January and March. - Any restructuring in these months will add pressure in later months. For e.g., move the McKenna cup to later in the year, causes more disruption and pressure to the county players in the form of club 'v' county to another part of the year

2- Removing colleges from pre-season inter-county competitions• - The whole reason for this was to prevent college lads being pulled in two directions during Jan - March, removing the demands of the county and college by focusing on the college but playing inter county standard teams. This should have been a  win win, but the county managers didn't like it

3- b]The establishment of GPA representation on the GAA Higher Education group to facilitate engagement with key stakeholders such as managers and educators[/b]• - Seriously, Seriously, F#$king jobs for the boys. In my time in college, books came first then the football, and managers managed around that fact. The big issue was county managers not caring about student demands. Why the need for GPA in Higher Education councils?

The real solution should focus on scheduling. We need one master schedule for the entire country that eliminates county 'v' club, and students 'v' county or club commitments.
Break the calender year out into seasons, and identify what sport / competition has priority during the season.
For example -
Adult
club adult football priority from Feb - May for league
Intercounty football June to August - League and championship to be run off simultaneously
Club Championship- Sept - November (through to All Ireland)

The same approach for youth, identify school / college period and club periods

But one group needs to align fixture making for the entire country, and aline all the club, county, college and school programs. If this means eliminating certain competitions at club, college, county, then so be it, but lets set out a framework that everybody has to ad-hear too.

Where did the ramdom clump of atoms come from??

Im not doubting St Pats at all and IMO the clubs there pupils came from are top clubs but you cannot seriously compare a school which took pupils in no matter what grade they had in the 11+ against a school who only took in passes.  You can compare them to Colmans etc fair enough and i said it when i was at school that alot of clubs in Antrim cared nothing for colleges football and that the schools and county board didnt care much either.

In my opinion, school size is the only factor where you shouldn't compare schools. I believe St Pat's take in around 75-100 boys each year. It doesn't matter if they are in the grammar or secondary path. 100 boys in a school year 'v' 50,  is an obvious advantage.

Your point around clubs / county board not caring for colleges football. If St Louis ever got to a MacRory final, the attitude would be significantly different.

One point that you didn't make but is really valid for most Antrim schools, is the hurling / football divide. St Louis' pick to the North of the school is Rasharkin, Dunloy, Glenraval, with Dunloy and L'guile hurling, and  then Ballymena, Stinstons, and a few Creggan / Tir na Nog. All these clubs have hurling and football.

St Pat's is surrounded by Glen, Glenullin, Castledawson, Greenlough, Bellaghy, Kilrea, Cargin, who are football only, aswell as the dual clubs of Lavey, screen, Dungiven, Swatagh, S'neil.   

I see you've been on the county guestbook, CSC?

Not me, but I've read the post you are talking about.

I do read the county guestbook, and posted in the past, but got very dissapointed at the negatitivy when someone suggests a different way of doing things, so I stopped posting a couple of years back

[St Mary's are a hurling school. Rathmore hasn't any tradition. St Malachy's of late havent had much GAA interest not at the top level anyway and the rest of the schools wouldn't have either the numbers of the GAA interest.]

I wouldn't be as harsh as to blame the Antrim schools for the fact that we are and have been in such a bad way with the exception of our Ulster run (when we beat a terrible Donegal and a terrible Cavan).

Its more of a holistic problem from coaching, lack of tradition, lack of success, poor administration, lack of clubs being competitive st the very top etc. The school scene is part of that jigsaw without a doubt but hardly the biggest culprits.

St Mary's are a hurling school. Rathmore hasn't any tradition. St Malachy's of late havent had much GAA interest not at the top level anyway and the rest of the schools wouldn't have either the numbers of the GAA interest.

Maghera was formed in '64 and within 10 years had built up a tradition of excellence for Gaelic games. Many in Derry point to St Pat's as one of the main reasons why Derry football improved, as the school helped develop players from the North (Dungivin, Banagher, Ballerin, Glenullin) and teams from the south (Glen, Swatragh, S'neil, Lavey, Bellaghy, Castledawson, Newbridge, Ballinscreen, Greenlough)

This was lead directly by the school, but the power of schools football is immense

Maghera cant really be compared to Grammar schools in county Antrim as they had the ability to take children within their catchment area unlike St Louis for example who took in those who passed the 11+.  I attended St Louis from 93-2000, in the that time we had some success at B college level and many of one those side were part of the 2 Antrim minor teams which reached the Ulster final.  The school was a soccer school at that time due to one of the PE Teachers being a soccer man and only had success due to an influx of Gaelic lads and a few teachers(non PE), i know things have changed recently with a greater GAA push.  McLarnon semi finals this year on the back of a Herald final defeat last year and victory in Corn Comcille bear testament to this.

Schools can only do so much as the clubs should have shaped players before they arrive there in my opinion but as stated before if for example Saint Louis had have been able to gather up pupils from a catchment area in my time with the lads i knew from Our Lady of Lourdes, St Pats and St Olcans we would have been an A college.

You can compare St Pat's with Antrim schools, because they play in colleges against Colmans, Abbey, Omagh, Dungannon, who are all the same as St Louis.

I think what you will find is the secret of sucess, is down to teachers really putting an effort in the promotion of GAA within the schools.

For example, in St Pat's, 80% of PE classes from 1-3rd year was gaelic football. Each class started with 10 mins coaching and finished up in a game. Each game was stopped when the teacher wanted to point out a coaching opportunity. In 1st year, we had the 1st year league, which was contested as seriously as you would a MacRory cup. This system established a "Maghera Way" of playing football which matured during the MacRory years.

Maghera also host a P7 championship. This is a way of looking at talent coming into the school, and in an indirect way, selling the school to some football mad kid who might want to go to  a different school.

These are lessons that Antrim schools can learn from. The talent pool in Derry is good, but the commitment to Gaelic games, and to excellence in Maghera was second to none.

[I had it on good authority that Jordanstown had players playing from Magee in Derry and Coleraine last year and this year. Looks like this ruling may save your bacon from an embarrassing situation?]

sorry I'm only asking the question. Is St Mary's not a college of Queens.
http://www.stmarys-belfast.ac.uk/

The situation does need clarified right across the Country. DCU/Drumcondra,  UL/Mary I. etc. It appears to me to be a minefield for someone to sort

And what about your beloved Jordanstown Stronghold? Will you answer my questions I have now posed 3 times?

Q: Are all those who lined out for Jordanstown in Sigerson this year full time students at Jordanstown? Yes/No

CK  In my opinion 100% yes, that is even before the rulings last night which change things. That is why this has to be sorted.

Thanks for reply. I had it on good authority that Jordanstown had players playing from Magee in Derry and Coleraine last year and this year. Looks like this ruling may save your bacon from an embarrassing situation?

The only way that we could have Magee or Coleraine players is if they were actually UUJ players who were placed in the colleges during their placement year.

There is a seperate UU Magee and Coleraine teams, and during my time there, there was never any question of recruiting from team, as 1) they were stand alone clubs, and 2), the physical distance between the colleges would obviously create issues.

I understand that but it is much easier for schools to tap into rural communitiew with already strong GAA clubs than it would be for Urban schools with largely weaker GAA resources to pull from.

The big thing is to work hard at creating a tradition within the school and then driving on erformance.

I joined St Pat's in the 80's, at that time the top colleges would have been St Pat's, Colmans, Abbey and  St Mary's CBS Belfast. But St Mary's slipped down until they went into B football. St Mary's are a sleeping giant waiting to wake up, somebody just needs to nudge the gaint

[St Mary's are a hurling school. Rathmore hasn't any tradition. St Malachy's of late havent had much GAA interest not at the top level anyway and the rest of the schools wouldn't have either the numbers of the GAA interest.]

I wouldn't be as harsh as to blame the Antrim schools for the fact that we are and have been in such a bad way with the exception of our Ulster run (when we beat a terrible Donegal and a terrible Cavan).

Its more of a holistic problem from coaching, lack of tradition, lack of success, poor administration, lack of clubs being competitive st the very top etc. The school scene is part of that jigsaw without a doubt but hardly the biggest culprits.

St Mary's are a hurling school. Rathmore hasn't any tradition. St Malachy's of late havent had much GAA interest not at the top level anyway and the rest of the schools wouldn't have either the numbers of the GAA interest.

Maghera was formed in '64 and within 10 years had built up a tradition of excellence for Gaelic games. Many in Derry point to St Pat's as one of the main reasons why Derry football improved, as the school helped develop players from the North (Dungivin, Banagher, Ballerin, Glenullin) and teams from the south (Glen, Swatragh, S'neil, Lavey, Bellaghy, Castledawson, Newbridge, Ballinscreen, Greenlough)

This was lead directly by the school, but the power of schools football is immense

My fear is that recruiting players from lesser colleges ie Stranmillis or so Marys etc.  Could really dilute the value and prestige of qub as a university.  If they are not careful they could be declassified to polytechnic level and there's a big kip out the road with that market cornered already.

Got to love this post. Classic QUB. Queens caught getting up to shenanigans, then try to deflect attention onto UUJ.

After all these years, QUB are still trying to find true north on the moral compass

[A lad who has a full time job totally unrelated to football]

A lad who has a full time job totally unrelated to football is as far from a pro footballer as you can get. As I said before, Doak was freshers manager last year and as well as that he was also vice-president of ITSSU. Hardly a hired gun in college for a jolly and to play Sigerson.

Ridiculous thing to say, Indiana.

So has he a full time job or is he a student??!!

Both. Doak is our SU president. He was also Vice President last year. He is also in final year of a Pg diploma which is why our officers thought he was eligible. His sabbatical role meant he was ineligible.
Our appeal is being heard tomorrow night.

"He is also in final year of a Pg [/b] diploma" This could potentially change things, as we could now be in the infamous gray area of the GAA rule book. I believe the spirit of the sabbatical rule was inspired by the famous QUB (& Antrim) "professional" sabbatical officer, who was an officer for a number of years and was playing Sigerson well into his 20's. If this guy is a student and sabbatical officer, then he should be eligible to play due to his studies (as long as this was not his 4th or 5th diploma.

The clean up should be straight forward,

Limit the eligibility rules to time period or actual courses  ( e.g play a max of 5 years at college, or only apply to undergrad courses)

Freshers play fresher football only,

Only applies to Full time courses only
Student officers are illeligible

Clear guidelines for scholarship, (academic levels, number of scholarships permitted (for example, each club can only offer X scholoriships for the total club per year, financial assistance provided, centrally monitored by the HE in Croke Park HQ)

Player registeration in UU was based on the actual college that you were based in. One university but three different clubs.

The Magee situation never arose in my time there, so I don't know how that one worked out