United Ireland

[muppet]

There is no extreme right in Ireland.

There is barely anything right of centre in Ireland since the demise of the PDs (who I couldn't vote for BTW).

There is FG who claim to be slightly to the right but jump into bed with Labour at every opportunity. There is FF who are left right and centre or whatever you are having today.

Then you have SF, who are obviously left wing whose greatest current fear is beoing outflanked by Joe Higgins, Paul Murphy and co. This is the 'centrist' party that supports Tspiras.   

There is no 'right' in Irish politics, unless you are standing with nothing to your left.

But back to your dig at me regarding democracy. How does a party, who would be despised by 50% in the 6 counties while in the 26 probably 70% will never go near them, get to design a new state for all of us?

Wow, you really are blind to the reality of politics in this state, though your assertion that "There is barely anything right of centre in Ireland since the demise of the PDs" really is risible!

Slashing the carers' allowance; removing community grants (despite the relative pittance they cost the state, and even though such an action will do nothing more than to fill the jails earlier with social dropouts -- short termism at its worst); bailing out private institutions by taxing the ordinary taxpayer; trying (and miserably failing) to set up a water utility to be hived off to private enterprise at the earliest opportunity to enrich the already affluent elite; The Economic Management Council (straight out of Pinochet's handbook, where a cabal of the inner cabinet plus a civil servant or two bypass the Dáil completely); Noonan now talking about raising the ceiling for Inheritance tax (Capital Acquisitions Tax) liability in the budget to come -- that'd be really to the benefit of the many, and not the few, yeah? etc., etc. And apparently "There is no 'right' in Irish politics..."

You gave a dig to yourself for your expression of non-recognition of the democratic wish across this island, should that eventuality ever arise -- you don't need any assistance from this quarter. Things are not set in stone, and should Britain, for example, vote to secede from the EU then the dynamic would rapidly alter across these islands.

You don't seem to have the foggiest idea of who is running the country. You seem to think it is politicians, and Irish ones at that.

But then you insist on hiding behind the charade that all of the political parties are playing. The Troika introduced all of the above, to undo the far left ideology of previous governments which left us with a massive deficit after the property boom and  subsequent crash. Inheritance tax changes are irrelevant to the vast majority of us, and if that is the only right wing policy you can point to, well have a think about it. Most people's inheritance will go towards paying for health care for our parents.

How about a 5% wealth tax on any assets a la SF a few years ago? Is that centrist?

As for your last paragraph, what on earth are you talking about? What 'democratic wish' am I not recognising? SF does not represent more than 70% of us.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

You don't seem to have the foggiest idea of who is running the country. You seem to think it is politicians, and Irish ones at that.

But then you insist on hiding behind the charade that all of the political parties are playing. The Troika introduced all of the above, to undo the far left ideology of previous governments which left us with a massive deficit after the property boom and  subsequent crash. Inheritance tax changes are irrelevant to the vast majority of us, and if that is the only right wing policy you can point to, well have a think about it. Most people's inheritance will go towards paying for health care for our parents.

How about a 5% wealth tax on any assets a la SF a few years ago? Is that centrist?

As for your last paragraph, what on earth are you talking about? What 'democratic wish' am I not recognising? SF does not represent more than 70% of us.

No, the Troika did not introduce all of those, the Irish 'Government' had options, but due to the lack of a backbone they went for the easiest targets instead of hitting those who could best afford it -- that's why the wealth gap has widened significantly during the current watch: Ireland reaching US Levels of Income Inequality, and that is as good a measure as any about how right-wing any particular administration may be.

FFS they were NOT even compelled to introduce water charges, since an opt-out had been secured by FF previously, so plain wrong on that too -- EU rules did not compel Ireland to bring in water charges - our politicians chose to do it

"Most people's inheritance will go towards paying for health care for our parents"... really, and you have figures to back that up? Dream on, this is another measure to line the pockets of the already very well off, nothing less. Par for the Blueshirts' course.

Robbing individuals to cover private institutions' debts can never be 'far-left', you're confusing the socialisation of debts with socialism!

Regarding that last paragraph, you said if ever the like of SF had a 32-County majority you'd hold that expression of democratic wish in contempt. Hardly the sentiments of a democrat.

[muppet]

You don't seem to have the foggiest idea of who is running the country. You seem to think it is politicians, and Irish ones at that.

But then you insist on hiding behind the charade that all of the political parties are playing. The Troika introduced all of the above, to undo the far left ideology of previous governments which left us with a massive deficit after the property boom and  subsequent crash. Inheritance tax changes are irrelevant to the vast majority of us, and if that is the only right wing policy you can point to, well have a think about it. Most people's inheritance will go towards paying for health care for our parents.

How about a 5% wealth tax on any assets a la SF a few years ago? Is that centrist?

As for your last paragraph, what on earth are you talking about? What 'democratic wish' am I not recognising? SF does not represent more than 70% of us.

No, the Troika did not introduce all of those, the Irish 'Government' had options, but due to the lack of a backbone they went for the easiest targets instead of hitting those who could best afford it -- that's why the wealth gap has widened significantly during the current watch: Ireland reaching US Levels of Income Inequality, and that is as good a measure as any about how right-wing any particular administration may be.

FFS they were NOT even compelled to introduce water charges, since an opt-out had been secured by FF previously, so plain wrong on that too -- EU rules did not compel Ireland to bring in water charges - our politicians chose to do it

"Most people's inheritance will go towards paying for health care for our parents"... really, and you have figures to back that up? Dream on, this is another measure to line the pockets of the already very well off, nothing less. Par for the Blueshirts' course.

Robbing individuals to cover private institutions' debts can never be 'far-left', you're confusing the socialisation of debts with socialism!

Regarding that last paragraph, you said if ever the like of SF had a 32-County majority you'd hold that expression of democratic wish in contempt. Hardly the sentiments of a democrat.

From your link:

"A compromise package on the legislation was agreed giving Ireland a derogation from a requirement to meter water. The directive allows member states to opt out of this obligation if it conflicts with national practice."

From the memorandum of understand with the Troika:

https://www.imf.org/external/np/loi/2010/irl/120310.pdf

In advance of the introduction of water charges
- The government will have undertaken an independent assessment of transfer of responsibility for water services provision from local authorities to a water utility, and prepare proposals for implementation, as appropriate with a view to start charging in 2012/2013.

And I am no blueshift. But of course you know that already and are merely doing the usual SF stuff.

Robbing individuals to cover private institutions' debts can never be 'far-left', you're confusing the socialisation of debts with socialism!

Who are you arguing with on this?

I never said any of this, or anything like it. Are you posting on multiple forums, and confusing yourself?

you said if ever the like of SF had a 32-County majority you'd hold that expression of democratic wish in contempt. Hardly the sentiments of a democrat.

Absolutely incredible deviation from reality. Post that quote up.

Why are you making shit up? I said that I would be against their 'vision' the same as I would be against a DUP/FG/FF etc 'vision' for a new state'. I then said that I reckoned that it would be rejected in any vote in the south. How does that twist into 'if ever the like of SF had a 32-County majority you'd hold that expression of democratic wish in contempt'?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

"Incredible deviation from reality", really?...

It would be an expression of 32 County democracy; I take it, ergo, you'd be against such an expression of wish were it to be left hued?

I would treat it with the same utter contempt that I would treat a DUP, FF, FG or Labour vision for a new state.

But my view is irrelevant. What could be relevant is that I reckon most of the voters in the south would reject it, which would set the cause back decades. So why would SF be wasting their time with this 'vision'?

That was your answer when I posited the (remote) possibility of a 32-County democratic left-centred wish.  So "utter contempt" were you words.

Yes, the Troika Memorandum of Understanding, like I said, no backbone, as supine then as they've proved to be since -- they could have invoked the opt-out, the 'derogation' actually remains in place.

You said the previous incumbents to the current in the Dáil invoked 'far-left' policies (check back, it's on this page), and I was merely pointing up how ridiculous an assertion that was, since the socialisation of debts, for example, was most certainly not left in any sense. Do keep up!

[armaghniac]

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/pensioner-crushed-under-tractor-waited-more-than-two-hours-for-ambulance-to-reach-him-31431058.html

Maybe proper health services in border areas?

[muppet]

"Incredible deviation from reality", really?...

It would be an expression of 32 County democracy; I take it, ergo, you'd be against such an expression of wish were it to be left hued?

I would treat it with the same utter contempt that I would treat a DUP, FF, FG or Labour vision for a new state.

But my view is irrelevant. What could be relevant is that I reckon most of the voters in the south would reject it, which would set the cause back decades. So why would SF be wasting their time with this 'vision'?

That was your answer when I posited the (remote) possibility of a 32-County democratic left-centred wish.  So "utter contempt" were you words.

Yes, the Troika Memorandum of Understanding, like I said, no backbone, as supine then as they've proved to be since -- they could have invoked the opt-out, the 'derogation' actually remains in place.

You said the previous incumbents to the current in the Dáil invoked 'far-left' policies (check back, it's on this page), and I was merely pointing up how ridiculous an assertion that was, since the socialisation of debts, for example, was most certainly not left in any sense. Do keep up!

Post the full conversation. I was clearly talking about the 'vision' of the various parties and that is what I would treat with contempt. The sentence clearly states that. I have no idea what your 'hue' even means.

[muppet]

I have read this all again.

Criticism of a SF policy 'vision' on a future United Ireland is attacked for being anti-democratic. This happened in the context of suggesting such a vision would be unlikely to get a yes vote in the south.

This of course to SF is 'anti-democratic'.

Then I am labelled a blue shirt, despite venting my anger repeatedly here, at FG and Noonan in particular Noonan, for example for raiding privately funded pensions while leaving his own publicly funded pension alone.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Post the full conversation. I was clearly talking about the 'vision' of the various parties and that is what I would treat with contempt. The sentence clearly states that. I have no idea what your 'hue' even means.

It's fairly clear, I postulated the future possibility of a 32 county democratic vote, and you expressed "utter contempt" for such a scenario if that involved a reimagining of what 'Ireland' might actually be about. It's not complicated, and you were not being criticised for expressing criticism of SF's vision, I was referring of your "utter contempt" for what would be, though at this juncture purely academic (and unlikely in the immediate future), a democratic expression of wish.

Hue means colour or shade, so left-hued should be fairly obvious (at least if it isn't to you, why did you not seek clarification at the time), instead of this endless poring over repeated points.

Incidentally, I was not referring to you specifically as a Blueshirt, just attempting to illustrate a point to rebut your assertion that "There is barely anything right of centre in Ireland...". 

[muppet]

Post the full conversation. I was clearly talking about the 'vision' of the various parties and that is what I would treat with contempt. The sentence clearly states that. I have no idea what your 'hue' even means.

It's fairly clear, I postulated the future possibility of a 32 county democratic vote, and you expressed "utter contempt" for such a scenario if that involved a reimagining of what 'Ireland' might actually be about. It's not complicated, and you were not being criticised for expressing criticism of SF's vision, I was referring of your "utter contempt" for what would be, though at this juncture purely academic (and unlikely in the immediate future), a democratic expression of wish.

Hue means colour or shade, so left-hued should be fairly obvious (at least if it isn't to you, why did you not seek clarification at the time), instead of this endless poring over repeated points.

Incidentally, I was not referring to you specifically as a Blueshirt, just attempting to illustrate a point to rebut your assertion that "There is barely anything right of centre in Ireland...".

There is obviously a misunderstanding.

I dismissed a SF vision, as I did a DUP/FG/FF etc vision. I don't want any party's vision. I want consensus, or as close as possible to consensus as can be achieved.

Then, and only then, should be thinking of a vote.

I then said I believed the SF vision wouldn't get past a vote in the south. I don't know where you jumped to talking about a post referendum scenario, with the SF vision passed, but there you go. We are obviously talking about two different things.

I think we can probably leave that as it is.

As for the Irish political axis. I don't think there is likely to be agreement here, but any objective analysis would see only FG as a right wing party, and they are centre-right at that. Witness how easily they get into bed with the centre-left Labour. FF are all things to all people so if you argue that they are right of centre I would agree, on the condition that you accept that they equally can be left wing whenever it suits them.

Renua seems to be right wing but are also irrelevant at the moment.

But everything else is undoubtedly left wing.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Yep, we can leave it there, but would take issue with your categorisation of Labour as 'centre-left' -- they've long ago forfeited any claim to be left I'd say, and FG hardly moved an inch (leftwards) to accommodate the coalition arrangement! 

[BluestackBoy]

Yep, we can leave it there, but would take issue with your categorisation of Labour as 'centre-left' -- they've long ago forfeited any claim to be left I'd say, and FG hardly moved an inch (leftwards) to accommodate the coalition arrangement! 

If you want to see what real right wing politics looks like, check out last night's Republican debate.

Makes our guys look like Stalinists!!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Yep, we can leave it there, but would take issue with your categorisation of Labour as 'centre-left' -- they've long ago forfeited any claim to be left I'd say, and FG hardly moved an inch (leftwards) to accommodate the coalition arrangement! 

If you want to see what real right wing politics looks like, check out last night's Republican debate.

Makes our guys look like Stalinists!!

But that's the problem, they're increasingly used as a yardstick in respect of the political spectrum, which is ALL wrong! The (rapidly) widening wealth gap (increasing income inequality) tells me all I need to know about the political complexions in this state, an arrangement that Labour has enthusiastically facilitated in concert with the Blueshirts.

[Rossfan]

so what's the Fear ón Sraith solution to income inequality?
A Maximum wage that no one can be paid more than? Minimum wage/social welfare of say €600 per week?
Everyone that can't get a job in the Commercial economy be given a Public Job?
Do enlighten us oul' pal ......

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

so what's the Fear ón Sraith solution to income inequality?
A Maximum wage that no one can be paid more than? Minimum wage/social welfare of say €600 per week?
Everyone that can't get a job in the Commercial economy be given a Public Job?
Do enlighten us oul' pal ......

That's the politicians' job, though I can tell you what it doesn't involve, and that's successive budgets that exacerbate the gap by hitting the worst off hardest. This crew have been very good at that.

[Syferus]

so what's the Fear ón Sraith solution to income inequality?
A Maximum wage that no one can be paid more than? Minimum wage/social welfare of say €600 per week?
Everyone that can't get a job in the Commercial economy be given a Public Job?
Do enlighten us oul' pal ......

That's the politicians' job, though I can tell you what it doesn't involve, and that's successive budgets that exacerbate the gap by hitting the worst off hardest. This crew have been very good at that.

What country on Earth is it better to be poor in than Ireland? We have an unreal depth of safety nets here. At worst we'd be one of the best.

You're lacking a serious amount of perspective.