Ulster Scotch

[lurgan-gael]

Just because a few enthusiasts claim it to be a language, doesn't make it true. At best it is a dialect.

[MW]

Just because a few enthusiasts claim it to be a language, doesn't make it true. At best it is a dialect.

Would that be your considered opinion as a linguistic and historical record?

[the green man]

I'll give you Scots Gaelic as a language, but not Ulster Scotch. Sure Ulster Scotch is nothing more than what youd hear in Yorkshire. A variation of English with its own phrases.

I'm not talking about Scots Gaelic, I'm talking about Scots. Google "Scots language".

Googled it and got Wikipedia. Not the most informative site. Look I'm not de railing Ulster Scotch at all. But for someone to come on here and declare it a language, I think its absurd. Like the advert in this weeks paper for the Ulster Scotch administrater or whatever it was. A laughable joke, not the pay at 30k mind, but most in our persuasion think that Ulster Scotch is something that Nelson McCaulsand has made up.

[MW]

I'll give you Scots Gaelic as a language, but not Ulster Scotch. Sure Ulster Scotch is nothing more than what youd hear in Yorkshire. A variation of English with its own phrases.

I'm not talking about Scots Gaelic, I'm talking about Scots. Google "Scots language".

Googled it and got Wikipedia. Not the most informative site. Look I'm not de railing Ulster Scotch at all. But for someone to come on here and declare it a language, I think its absurd. Like the advert in this weeks paper for the Ulster Scotch administrater or whatever it was. A laughable joke, not the pay at 30k mind, but most in our persuasion think that Ulster Scotch is something that Nelson McCaulsand has made up.

If it helps, stop thinking about Ulster Scots completely, and think about Scots.

[MW]

The excellent "The Story of English" by Robert McCrum, Robert MacNeil and William Cran devoted a whole chapter to "The Guid Scots Tongue"  - it hedges on whether it's a language or a dialect, though it refers to Scots as a language several times. It has a sub-chapter 'The Scots in Ireland' which disusses the language of the Scots-Irish, and 'The American Planations' about the Scots-Irish in North America.

First published in 1986.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

The excellent "The Story of English" by Robert McCrum, Robert MacNeil and William Cran devoted a whole chapter to "The Guid Scots Tongue"  - it hedges on whether it's a language or a dialect, though it refers to Scots as a language several times. It has a sub-chapter 'The Scots in Ireland' which disusses the language of the Scots-Irish, and 'The American Planations' about the Scots-Irish in North America.

First published in 1986.

Actually even Scots is a stretch at being a "language", its more Robbie Burns speak and local slang.
The only true Scottish language is Scots Gaelic. The crap they try and pass off here as a language is no more then a reactionary accent, which originated as a movement recently.

[carribbear]

"Doonload"

Fcuk me - one of the funniest things ever

Im away too doonload some poorn the noo

[carribbear]

Googled it and got Wikipedia. Not the most informative site. Look I'm not de railing Ulster Scotch at all. But for someone to come on here and declare it a language, I think its absurd. Like the advert in this weeks paper for the Ulster Scotch administrater or whatever it was. A laughable joke, not the pay at 30k mind, but most in our persuasion think that Ulster Scotch is something that Nelson McCaulsand has made up.

I personally can not wait for the TUV (True Unionist Voice) party addressing the institutions in this language

Bet they bag the Perrier award in Edinburgh next year with that routine.....

[The Forfeit Point]

i personally think that its a waste of time promoting ulster scotch or any other language that isnt klingon..... this is the fastest growing language on the planet and deserves funding and respect!
www.kli.org

a truly beautiful language:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGZV6fsotYo

[Evil Genius]

This might stun some people but I would consider Scots on its own a language and Ulster-Scots an offshoot of it the same way as American English.

Never a 100% reliable source, but from Wikipedia...

Scots (The Scots leid) refers to Anglic varieties derived from early northern Middle English spoken in parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland. In Scotland it is sometimes called Lowland Scots to distinguish it from Scottish Gaelic traditionally spoken in the Highlands and Islands. Scots is also spoken in parts of Northern Ireland and border areas of the Republic of Ireland, where it is known in official circles as Ulster Scots or Ullans.

Effectively as the English language mutated through the centuries at one point when English influence in the lowland areas of Scotland was becoming more pronounced, and the handiness of travel isn't as lightning quick today, Scots effectively developed as an offshoot from Middle English whereas in other places they were heading to Early Modern English. No one would dispute that there are some significant differences between British or Hiberno-English and American English as the latter basically held on to the same spelling of words that existed in 18th century England. Scots is significantly different to Modern English as we know as words spelt in Scots are more phonetically spoken compared to Modern English which has significant spellings in many of its words which do not correspond phonetically. The Norwegian, Swedish and Danish languages share enough in common with each other so that a speaker of one would be able to have a reasonable grasp of the other two (like Scots, these languages have words spelt close to how they are pronounced) at least in spoken word. If Irish or Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic can be regarded as two separate languages, then there's no reason that Scots/Ulster-Scots and English can be as well.

In saying that, a lot of phrases and sayings from the Scots language ended up getting mixed into Modern English (which is a mongrel language on its own) in parts of Scotland and N.Ireland (& Donegal). Its only reason I believe for its resurgence has been for a Unionist cause to find an "equivalent" to Irish as before the late 1990's you would have been hard pressed to have found anyone claiming to have spoke "Ulster-Scots".

You make a persuasive case for Ulster Scots having the status of a dialect, at least, if not a language in its own right, Fionntamhnach.

But whilst that case would certainly have held true 200 or 300 years ago, I actually feel that Ulster Scots/Ullans has become so "diluted" during the last Century or so, that it now ceases to exist in any more recognisable form than a few local idioms, pronunciations and local grammatical constructions, incorporated into a version of Standard English, as spoken in NI/the north of Ireland.

And in any case, even if it does have a greater and more distinct status than I and most people in NI would grant to it, I really don't see how that it is sufficient for it to merit official recognition on an equal basis with English. Quite honestly, it doesn't even come anywhere close to being a separate language in the way e.g. Gaelic is - and whilst I greatly respect that language and am more than happy to see it supported financially etc, I don't believe that it should be accorded exactly equal Official Status alongside English in NI, either, since it has long since* ceased to be a lingua franca in this part of the island.

Quite honestly, this whole Ulster Scots lobby is an embarrassing attempt by "Ussuns" to 'prove' that we have our own 'language' just like "Themmuns", with the added bonus of being a pretext for creating jobs and screwing grants out of a bemused/confused/fcuked-up Government along the way...


* - I  believe the last true "native" Irish speaker in NI lived in the Glens of Antrim, dying in the 1950's?

[bcarrier]

This is truly shocking.

What next ...funding for Ross O carroll Kelly speak for D4ers.

[magickingdom]

[
* - I  believe the last true "native" Irish speaker in NI lived in the Glens of Antrim, dying in the 1950's?

wtf are you on about? true? native? there are plenty of native irish speakers all over ireland. there are however no native/other true/? ulster scots speakers as you well know..

[Tony Baloney]

I believe he is correct about the place and I'm not sure about the decade.

[5 Sams]

I  believe the last true "native" Irish speaker in NI lived in the Glens of Antrim, dying in the 1950's?

I don't believe that.

Define a native speaker? Is it someone who has been brought up speaking a particular language at home from birth (or shortly after obviously)with parents and siblings using that language every day in the home. Thus it is their first language.

In that case there are loads of native Irish speakers in the north.

[Tony Baloney]

Unless Plumbridge is in the Glens of Antrim, I'm sure he is incorrect.

The last speaker in mainland Co. Antrim died in the 50s, last Co. Derry died in the 70s and the last native speaker in the north died on Rathlin in 1985. So says my book so that makes me the winner geographically!

I  believe the last true "native" Irish speaker in NI lived in the Glens of Antrim, dying in the 1950's?

I don't believe that.

Define a native speaker? Is it someone who has been brought up speaking a particular language at home from birth (or shortly after obviously)with parents and siblings using that language every day in the home. Thus it is their first language.

In that case there are loads of native Irish speakers in the north.

It's not about a native of the north speaking some generic breed of irish. The statistics quoted are not about "natives" speaking the language. They are about people speaking the native language as each area had it's own variant e.g Sperrins, Armagh, the Glens etc all had local slants on the language. Irish as a native language was declared extinct in the north in the 80s. It was obviously resurrected in Belfast with the introduction of funding