Ulster Scotch

[Flameboy]

well those are obviously english names my man...

Gaelic and english place names in scotland....no sign of ulster scots....

Gaelic and english place names in ireland north and south - no sign of the ulster scots names here either....

could that be because ulster scots doesnt exist and is in fact a made up language doing nothing more than elevating a coarse, guttural and uncouth accent to the undeserved status of a language?

Answers on a post card please.......

[ziggysego]

I'd broadly agree with some of that, though the Ulster Scots language bodies in the main seem to have developed in the early 1990s.

Which is where Lord Laird came in. I know for a fact that the genuine speakers where laughing (yes laughing) at some of the new words that they were including in the language.

[AhNowRef]

I had the hilarious misfortune to see a programme about Ulster Scots on TV a few weeks ago - A Dander with Drennan I think it was called .......... I've never laughed as much in my life - Beats the simpsons, Black Adder and fowlty towers all rolled into one.

At one stage this big fat guy (after finishing playing "a bit a musak") started telling Drennan that he only realised recently that he was Bi-Lingual ..... FFS, I nearly passed out.

BTW - they were supposedly speaking this "other language" for the duration of the programme .... I never noticed ..... It's a dialect pure and simple, but sure if its gives them a laugh what the hell.

BTW - the word for the ice age is "the bag snaw" 

[MW]

well those are obviously english names my man...

Wrong.

Aberdeen is a British name (or Celtic British if you prefer).  Kincardine has a mixture of Scottish Gaelic and Pictish origin. Dingwall is Norse. 'Edinburgh' is testament to the fact that the Scottish capital, as well as other Lowland towns (walled fortress towns - "burhs", were founded and peopled by Northumbrian 'Anglians' (or English if you prefer) who spoke a Germanic tongue they knew as 'Englisc' or 'Anglisc' and became the basis of the popular language of the Lowlands and language of government of the kindgom of Scotland. (This tongue, evolving along with a surrounding culture in a politically independent Scotland, became known by its speakers and by the Scottish government as 'Scots', and developed over a period of centuries seperately from the other 'Anglic' versions across the border, including the West Saxon version that formed the basis of middle and early modern English, a standard whose cultural and political centre was hundreds of miles from Scotland in a different country). Stirling and Hamilton among many other placenames also testify to the fact that well before the united Scotland was formed, centred on the Lowlands (and Edinburgh in particular), there were towns and and tribes of 'Anglian' or 'Anglo-Saxon' origin populating what became the cultural and political centre of Scotland.

Gaelic and english place names in scotland....no sign of ulster scots...

Why on earth would there be Ulster Scots placenames in Scotland? The 'English' placenames to which you refer predate a united England and a united Scotland - as these were coming about the descendents of these Northumbrian 'Angles' or 'English' who gave these names became Scots, and came to call their language Scots as well.

Gaelic and english place names in ireland north and south - no sign of the ulster scots names here either....

You really aren't looking hard enough. Just down the road from where I grew up for example, there was Crawfordsburn. And considering this place already had long-established Irish Gaelic placenames, which were not wiped out, and was governed by the English government when the plantation took place, it's hardly surprising Irish Gaelic and English placenames dominate.

could that be because ulster scots doesnt exist and is in fact a made up language doing nothing more than elevating a coarse, guttural and uncouth accent to the undeserved status of a language?

Answers on a post card please.......

So basically you're just going to metaphorically stick your fingers in your ears, chant 'la la la la la' and ignore anything that I've posted about Scots, and Scottish linguistic history then?

[dubnut]

MW is Man in Black I think! 

[Flameboy]

jesus....you're mad about the ulster scots i'll give you that....

are you actually some sort of cultural anthropologist....

im not going to rehash this but here has yet to be any evidence that ulster scots is a language as opposed to an accent (not even a dialect, as dialect is a type of language, like sicilian)...

i await proof of the above yet doubt a creditable rebuttal shall be forthcoming sir.

[Flameboy]

by evidence i mean ;

grammar, syntax, etc....

[ziggysego]

Modify previous post Flameboy

[Flameboy]

dont tell me its not grammatically correct?

[Bogball XV]

I had the hilarious misfortune to see a programme about Ulster Scots on TV a few weeks ago - A Dander with Drennan I think it was called

I saw that, twas grand auld craic - i also had the epiphany that i have a more than passing knowledge of another language - I still don't understand the title though 'a dander with drennan' what could that mean?

[Orior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0_J27WHjMg&eurl=


Ulster Scots Agency - 'The aim of the Ulster-Scots Agency is to promote the study, conservation, development and use of Ulster-Scots as a living language; to encourage and develop the full range of its attendant culture; and to promote an understanding of the history of the Ulster-Scots.'

Classic. I never knew that Ulster Scots could move and breathe at the same time.

[Imposerous]

Is Liam Logan yer wan who presents 'a kist o' words' (or something like that) on BBC Radio Ulster?

[Evil Genius]

the indiginous language of scotland is Celtic Gaelic as spoken by ourselves....

The indiginous people are celts like ourselves....

MW having shown up your lamentable ignorance over Ulster Scots and its origins, you now proceed to show your ignorance over the racial and linguistic origins of the rest of Scotland and Ireland.

Celtic Gaelic is only one of the "indigenous" languages of what is now known as Scotland. There are others, the one most relevant to this debate being Lallans (or Lowlands) Scots, since that was the chief progenitor of Ulster Scots as discussed here.
If you really want to educate yourself on this subject (and I think you need to before propounding so widely), you might read some of the works of Rabbie Burns - the Kilmarnock Poems, perhaps? At a time when half the world, including English and Gaelic speaking, has just stumbled over the words of "Auld Lang Syne", this is rather apposite at this time. But I will warn you, you will need an Edition with Footnotes, since like ALS, the songs and poems of Burns are neither in English nor Gallic!

As for your claim that "...the indigenous people [of Scotland] are Celts like ourselves", you are seriously mischaracterising the situation here on two counts:
1. The Celts are only one of the ethnic/racial groups which make up the people of Scotland; and
2. People in Ireland such as yourself may possibly be "indigenous", but almost certainly aren't ethnically Celtic, since genetic studies indicate that the Celts were not the original inhabitants of Ireland, nor did they replace those who were. Rather, the indigenous people were "Celtified" (assimilated) by their colonisers from the East*.

Still, if you wish to retain your entirely unscientific beliefs, for the sake of preserving your dearly-held prejudices...

Oh, and for the record, I don't believe Ulster-Scots to be a language, either. My best guess is that it was originally somewhere between a language and a dialect when it transferred, along with Gallic and English, with the Plantation of Ulster in the early 17th Century. Since then, it has been so corrupted/altered/supplanted etc by English as to be not much more than an interesting linguistic relic for those interested in the subject. In that respect, it's not that much different from Ulster Gaelic, which has also (regrettably) all but died out as a lingua franca in Northern Ireland in the 21st Century.

* - Sound familiar? 

[laoislad]

Evil genius is back.............Baton down the hatches

[pintsofguinness]

language my arse! These ulster scots ones might as well be screaming "please look at me, over here, I'm over here, please oh please someone give me some attention".