Irishmen in British uniforms

[magickingdom]

there has been a good series of letters on this topic in the irish times lately and todays one is worth a look (on the day sadly that news of another irishmans death in Afghanistan breaks)




Irishmen in British uniforms
Madam, - Tom Cooper (September 1st) forcefully expresses his disdain for Irishmen in British uniforms, whom he sees as conniving in a long history of British oppression. But the warp and weft of personal family tradition is never quite so cut and dried. As we say in our Protestant family, Irish history is a twisted rope. It can bind us together, hang us, or guide us.

Not long after the second World War, my late father-in-law, Tom Stoney, was a senior pupil at Harrow School. Winston Churchill, who was a former pupil there, was paying a visit and a group of prefects were lined up to be presented to him. When Churchill reached Tom, his housemaster introduced him: "This is Thomas Stoney, from Co Mayo in Ireland.".

Churchill harrumphed and disdainfully remarked: "The bloody Irish, what have they ever done for our wars?" Tom, only 17 years old, drew himself to his full height and retorted: "Thanks to your wars, sir, I have no male relatives; no father - he died in the last war, and no uncle, he died in the Great War." Jaws dropped, and the housemaster bustled Churchill down the line of other blushing prefects.

A little while later, Tom was summoned to the housemaster's study, expecting a beating or worse. He found Churchill, who shook him solemnly by the hand and asked forgiveness for his intemperate remarks.

Tom, a gentleman and a rebel of ascendancy stock, became a Church of Ireland clergyman, and never owned a British passport. He was an Irishman, and his old passport was green. In his years as a priest in the North he confronted loyalist thugs, removing their barricades with his own hands from across the streets of his parish, and loudly played songs of the IRA on his gramophone at the open window of his rectory study window whenever the Protestant marching bands passed by on July 12th.

He was a very fine shot who learned his marksmanship from a worker on the family estate, one Larry McGovern, a commander of the West Mayo brigade of the IRA. He also honoured the sacrifice of his father and uncle, both of whom he never knew.

In 1916, my own great- grandfather, also a Church of Ireland clergyman, was confounded when his son was refused a commission in an English regiment, the Durham Light Infantry, because he came from Wexford. He wrote to the War Office and we have a copy of the letter still. It begins: "At a time when Ireland is accused of not pulling its weight in the great struggle against German militarism, I find it incredible that my son, winner of the All Ireland schools' engineering medal, is refused a commission in an English regiment because of his nationality."

Within a year, Fred was killed at Ypres leading a platoon of the Royal Irish Rifles against a German machine-gun position. He was 20 years old.

One day I may have to explain to my sons about the divided loyalties they inherit as proud little (Anglo-) Irishmen. So I will invite them to respect the sacrifice of soldiers of the old IRA, like family friend Larry McGovern, who fought for Irish freedom, and remember their own forebears in the British forces who died to make that freedom worthwhile; for an Ireland in a Europe ruled by fascists, communists and militarists would have had no freedom worth the name.

I will also go on to say that I give thanks that they, and all others like them, are alive in an age and in a country where they need not take up arms for any cause, no matter the uniform, no matter the flag. As I have explained to British friends, had Ireland joined the Allied side in the second World War, the wounds of the 1920s Civil War would have opened again in Ireland with terrible consequences.

The policy of Irish neutrality established at that time, and the Christian path of peace which informs it, remain causes well worth living for, whether son of the Planter, or son of the Gael. - Yours, etc,

JULIAN ELLISON,

Ardagh,

Newport,

Co Mayo.

[magpie seanie]

Enjoyed reading that Magickingdom. Thanks for putting that up.

[fred the red]

Have they no army of their own to join?

[Mentalman]

Have they no army of their own to join?

Enjoyed the article, but that's a valid point.

I think the long history of Irishmen serving in the British forces for various reasons is one thing. It's something entirely different for a citizen of the Republic of Ireland to serve in those same forces today. To my mind there are few reasons for somone to choose to join the British forces ahead of the Irish defense forces other than some misguided idea of adventure, as nowadays the Irish army is well trained, and involved in Peace Keeping actions throughout the world, with a record second to none. Put another way, I'd rather feel proud of protecting the lives of those in Darfur, than feel responsible for the deaths of civilians in Iraq.

[dec]

and a story in the Irish Times from yesterday.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0904/1220372098017.html

More people from Republic opting to join British army

DAN KEENAN

Thu, Sep 04, 2008

SIX IRISH people turned up yesterday at a British army centre in Fermanagh, pledged allegiance to Queen Elizabeth and walked away as recruits. Five of them are from the Republic, the other from Strabane.

Col Dick Rafferty, the head of recruitment responsible for bringing some 700 young people into the forces annually, stresses there is "nothing new" in people from the South joining the British army.

"There is less of a stigma in telling your friends and family that you've joined," he says. "Perhaps we are seeing old prejudices and preconceptions being put to one side or erased."

Andrew Warrington (22), from Co Mayo, is a former member of the Defence Forces but had to leave because of injury. Because the British army offered to readmit him to military life more quickly, he jumped at the chance. He says his family "are thrilled", while his friends "are grand with it".

He signed for the Royal Irish Regiment, and is down for eventual deployment in Afghanistan.

He admits: "It was kind of scary at first but now I realise it's a job and a good job. Your job takes you away to work on a mission. That's what you do, you go with the flow."

Anthony Kerins (16) leaves for the Army Foundation College in Harrogate on Sunday for more schooling and training.

He joined "to go places . . . to have a good job, to meet good people and get out into the world".

He will also join the Royal Irish Regiment, while others who signed up yesterday will join the Parachute Regiment, the Irish Guards or the Royal Engineers.

Sgt Gavin O'Neill from Tallaght is one of two recruitment officers in Enniskillen.

"My father is still a serving soldier in the Irish Army, and I applied to join shortly after doing my Leaving Cert but I was unsuccessful. The other options open were the French Foreign Legion or the British army, so I chose the British and I joined up."

[Rossfan]

What's all the publicity in aid of?
Are they trying to attract more Irish recruits as presumably a lot of English/Scottish and Welsh young men dont fancy getting killed in Iraq/Afghanistan or whatever next Country the Yanks want to fcuk up?
Anyway for the record none of my grandfathers or Great grandfathers  or any of their brothers ever were in the Brit army.
And ye know what - I'm mighty proud of the fact.

[Evil Genius]

Different people have different motives for joining, so we shouldn't automatically load our prejudices onto everyone, willy-nilly:




http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080905...ce-6323e80.html



Soldier hoped for Afghan peace
Press Assoc. - A British Army soldier killed in Afghanistan had spoken of hopes of bringing peace to the war-torn country.

Ranger Justin Cupples, 29, a member of the 1st Battalion of The Royal Irish Regiment (RIR), was killed while on routine foot patrol in Sangin, Helmand Province, on Thursday.

He was fatally injured in a roadside bomb attack and, despite receiving first aid, died at the scene.

His death takes the number of British Army soldiers killed in Afghanistan to 117.

The Ranger, known as Cups to his comrades, was from Miami in the US but had moved back to his family home in Co Cavan in the Irish Republic, where he met and married his Lithuanian wife Vilma.

Before his recent deployment to Afghanistan, he spoke publicly about his desire to take on the Taliban following the September 11 terrorist attacks on his homeland.

He was then in the US Navy and was on board the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt during the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

After leaving the navy and moving to Ireland to the family home in Virginia, Co Cavan, he decided to join the British Army, spurred by the belief he had some unfinished business with the Taliban.

"It was one of the things I regretted after September 11, not being able to go in there (to Afghanistan) and do the job that needed to be done, and obviously still needs doing," he said when interviewed before the Royal Irish's recent deployment to Helmand.

"I would be lying if I said I wasn't apprehensive at some level but I'm anxious to go at the same time. I think it's now about trying to restore order to Afghanistan and trying to make it into some sort of a country."


Meanwhile, whilst the Taliban is trying to bring the Middle Ages back to Afghanistan, NATO are trying to bring electricity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7593901.stm

[Yes I Would]

If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.

[Mentalman]

Different people have different motives for joining, so we shouldn't automatically load our prejudices onto everyone, willy-nilly:




http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pressass/20080905...ce-6323e80.html



Soldier hoped for Afghan peace
Press Assoc. - A British Army soldier killed in Afghanistan had spoken of hopes of bringing peace to the war-torn country.

Ranger Justin Cupples, 29, a member of the 1st Battalion of The Royal Irish Regiment (RIR), was killed while on routine foot patrol in Sangin, Helmand Province, on Thursday.

He was fatally injured in a roadside bomb attack and, despite receiving first aid, died at the scene.

His death takes the number of British Army soldiers killed in Afghanistan to 117.

The Ranger, known as Cups to his comrades, was from Miami in the US but had moved back to his family home in Co Cavan in the Irish Republic, where he met and married his Lithuanian wife Vilma.

Before his recent deployment to Afghanistan, he spoke publicly about his desire to take on the Taliban following the September 11 terrorist attacks on his homeland.

He was then in the US Navy and was on board the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt during the initial invasion of Afghanistan in 2001.

After leaving the navy and moving to Ireland to the family home in Virginia, Co Cavan, he decided to join the British Army, spurred by the belief he had some unfinished business with the Taliban.

"It was one of the things I regretted after September 11, not being able to go in there (to Afghanistan) and do the job that needed to be done, and obviously still needs doing," he said when interviewed before the Royal Irish's recent deployment to Helmand.

"I would be lying if I said I wasn't apprehensive at some level but I'm anxious to go at the same time. I think it's now about trying to restore order to Afghanistan and trying to make it into some sort of a country."


Meanwhile, whilst the Taliban is trying to bring the Middle Ages back to Afghanistan, NATO are trying to bring electricity:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7593901.stm

So he went from the US Navy to the RIR, and his major regret was not seeing action in Afghanistan in the immediate aftermath of 911? Sorry EG but this guy's motivations seem to me to be baser than transforming Afghanisatan into a civil society. No harm to him like, but I'm sure his family are left with some regrets too.

[dodgy umpire]

people mightent like the idea of irish men and women joining the british army , and i am one of those people, but it is their right to join whatever army they want and persue their own career. cant understand what the media fuss is about though its not as if the irish are applying to the british army in their droves. are the media pushing some agenda?

[Mentalman]

people mightent like the idea of irish men and women joining the british army , and i am one of those people, but it is their right to join whatever army they want and persue their own career. cant understand what the media fuss is about though its not as if the irish are applying to the british army in their droves. are the media pushing some agenda?

It's definitely their right. And it's not even a matter of me liking it or not, I would think the same of those joining the US armed forces for instance. As I alluded to above, the Irish Defense forces give lots of opportunities to learn trades and to see action as peace keepers protecting civilian populations in some of toughest trouble spots in the world. The main motivations for an Irish citizen to join the army of any other nation would be (a) they lived in that country (b) they couldn't get into the Irish forces or (c) they want to see offensive action.

As for all the publicity, I suppose there have been a number of death's over the last couple of years other than the one this week. One of the first British soldiers to die in Iraq was a Dublin man who had featured heavily in a documentary program just weeks before. Also it's something people feel more free to disclose now given the improvement in the circumstances up north. I have personally known a number of southerners who have served in the RIR, the Irish Guards and even the SAS, but at the time this was all kind of hush hush. To a man it has either been because the Irish Army refused them or they wanted to see action i.e. kill people and blow shit up. What also struck me as weird was most of them had negative experiences of discrimination because they were Irish, although I would have thought that was to be expected. After all it's no mistake that, after the Gurkas, regiments like the Irish Guards etc. are amongst the first deployed to new flash points. I just don't get it when Irish soldiers have served peace in countries like the Congo, Lebanon, Cyprus, Bosnia, East Timor, Liberia, Eritrea, and now Sudan - and those were only the major deployments. I mean I could understand those serving in other armies during times like WW2 especially, when Ireland was neutral, but now?

[pintsofguinness]

The main motivations for an Irish citizen to join the army of any other nation would be (a) they lived in that country (b) they couldn't get into the Irish forces or (c) they want to see offensive action.

100%.
Blood thirsty pricks, they'll be at home in the British Army.
Good riddance to them.

[Hardy]

It's hard to see any other motivation for it, since we have a perfectly good army at home that  provides lots of opportunities for foreign adventures as well. The only difference seems to be the type of "adventure" involved.

Prompts the question - why don't we have British people applying to join the Irish army? Or do we? And would they get in? Does the European employment legislation cover armies?

[Main Street]

I know quite a few guys who joined the British Army in the 1970's and 80's.
None would serve in the North. Rather be jailed than serve in the North. These would be guys descended from those who would mostly have been neutral in or some were pro british in the War of Independance.

Blood thirsty pricks, they'll be at home in the British Army.
Good riddance to them.

Army life is a career of sorts.
Just as the reasons for joining the British Army are varied.
I wouldn't presume so much about their reasons or intentions.

Tom Barry joined the British Army for some adventure.

[pintsofguinness]

Mainstreet the only thing the Irish Army can't offer that the British can is blood so we can only assume that's what these boys are after.

When Tom Barry joined the british army there was no Irish alternative offering the same thing.