Irishmen in British uniforms

[Tony Baloney]

If all the Irish Army do is standing around guarding UN peace keepers I can only assume they never fire their weapons. I can see why people would want to join the Brits then. I'm sure people join the Brits for adventure rather than killing people. Remember people are shooting at them too!

[downredblack]

Gallipoli - The Fureys

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=NA79kVLHZ5c

[Rossfan]

I'm sure people join the Brits for adventure rather than killing people. Remember people are shooting at them too!

There'd be nobody shooting at them if they werent going round invading other peoples countries.

[pintsofguinness]

I'm sure people join the Brits for adventure rather than killing people. Remember people are shooting at them too!

There'd be nobody shooting at them if they werent going round invading other peoples countries.

You got to love the brits though, they invade countries and then when someone fights back they're outraged at the "terrorists"! If it wasn't so serious, it'd be funny!

[shark]

If all the Irish Army do is standing around guarding UN peace keepers I can only assume they never fire their weapons.

Not true, our lads were involved in an altercation with rebels in Chad only weeks ago.  The 'rebel season' is just kicking in over there now so expect some more action. 

And Chad is a peace enforcing mission which is different to a peace keeping mission.  Basically a soldier doesn't have to wait to be fired upon before he can discharge his weapon, as was the case in Lebanon.

[Mentalman]

When Tom Barry joined the british army there was no Irish alternative offering the same thing.

Exactly. As was said earlier there has been a long history of Irishmen serving in the British forces for many varied reasons, some political, some economic, and no one is denying that. But with a modern day Irish army as an alternative you would have to question the practice.

If all the Irish Army do is standing around guarding UN peace keepers I can only assume they never fire their weapons. I can see why people would want to join the Brits then.

There are a few thing wrong there. First off they are the peace keepers, they don't guard them. Second off ask the families of those who died serving peace in the Congo and Lebanon, to name but two, if all they did was stand guard. Also ask the people alive in those countries today because of their presence if all they did was stand guard.

[Rav67]

Around an average of 2 Irish soldiers per year have died since the Army first were deployed abroad so there's obviously some action saw.  A lot of these deaths were at the hands of the Baloobas who were a tribe from the Congo I think and who have since given their name to Slaughtneil, another crowd of nutters in Derry!

[Mentalman]

 A lot of these deaths were at the hands of the Baloobas who were a tribe from the Congo I think and who have since given their name to Slaughtneil, another crowd of nutters in Derry!

Also a colloquialism for being extremely drunk, at least in the midlands anyway!

[Hardy]

The Niemba ambush had a profound effect on the country at the time and the soldiers involved were national heroes. Strangely, it doesn't seem to have survived in the national psyche as much as the enormity of it would have warranted. And indeed the word "baluba" entered the language as a kind of synonym for anything from cornerboy to bowsy.

Here is an account of the event from an interview with one of the two survivors, Private Joe Fitzpatrick (from http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/archive/index.php/t-1971.html):

On 8th November 1960 a Platoon of Irish UN Troops set out on what should have been a normal Patrol. Nine of them died at the hands of the Balubas. Two of the Platoon survived to tell the story of the ambush. They were Trooper Thomas Kenny and Private Joe Fitzpatrick.

I think I could give no more graphic description of the ambush than to quote in full, the interview which Private Fitzpatrick give when in hospital in Albertville. In the same ward in the bed beside Fitzpatrick lay the other survivor Thomas Kenny.

"We were on a routine patrol. It was normal to go down the road leading south from Niemba and find a roadblock that had to be cleared.

Balubas were always doing this and we used to curse them almost good-naturedly while, in the hot sun, pulling down their handiwork - usually heavy logs piled across the road.

But this time they had done a more thorough job. They had pulled to pieces a wooden bridge across a small river, and it was taking us a lot more time than usual to put it right.

We had noticed lately that the parties of Baluba we met were getting more sullen and hostile. We never had more trouble than an odd arrow shot our way and we had always managed to bring about a peaceful end to our meetings with them.

So we were not at all expecting what happened this time. There we were, working away at that bridge with our Platoon Commander, Lt. Kevin Gleeson, and Sergt. Gaynor supervising, when someone called out there were Balubas coming down the road behind us. I looked up and there were about a hundred of them carrying bows and arrows, spears, panga knives and clubs.

Lt.Gleeson told us to stop working and be on alert with our weapons. Even then we did not expect trouble. We thought it would be another parley and then they would go away.

Lt. Gleeson walked towards them alone, holding up his right arm in sign of peace. They called out "Jambo" which is an African word meaning "I greet you in peace"

I looked away for just a moment for some reason or other and heard a shout from the lads. Then I saw Lt.Gleeson staggering with an arrow in his shoulder. I heard him yell, "Take cover, lads get behind the trees.

We did just that and withdrew into the trees on each side of the road. Most of the boys took cover on the opposite side of the road that I did - that is really how my life was saved, because the major Baluba attack went that way.

The air was suddenly black with a shower of arrows, and the Buluba let out blood-curdling yells that sounded like a war cry and rushed down the road like madmen, jumping in the air and waving their weapons.

I don't know who give the order to shoot, but we seemed suddenly all to be shooting.

I saw Lt. Gleeson killed. He didn't really get off the road. He fired into the Baluba with his sub-machine gun, covering us, looking quickly back over his shoulder to make sure we had taken cover. Then he turned and ran for the trees himself.

But they overtook him and ran him down. Some had outflanked him and cut off his attempt to get to cover. A lot of them reached him at the same time and they were howling like animals. Our Officer went down under a hail of blows from knives and clubs.

I don't know what I was thinking at the time but I have plenty of time to think since and that sight was the most awful memory of it all. Lt. Gleeson was a wonderful man and we loved him- we all loved him.

From that moment it all became very confused. The fight spread out among the trees. I could not see most of it. But there was a terrible noise, shouts, shooting and screaming.

The Baluba seemed to be everywhere, crushing through the bushes and giving their sort of high pitched battle-cry.

I heard our lads yelling, too. I heard one of them swearing. I remember I recognised his voice and I called out his name.

I heard another Irish voice say! Oh my God! and it ended in a sort of sob.

I saw about 12 Baluba in a hand-to-hand fight with one of our lads, who was using his rifle like a club. I feared to shoot for hitting him. Then I realised he was going to be killed anyway if I did not shoot and I fired two long bursts and saw three Buluba fall.

The rest of the Baluba ran away and I went to the lad who was my friend. He was still alive but could not answer when I spoke to him. He had three arrows in his body and was terribly cut with knives or spear wounds.

I tried gently to pull the arrows out of him but they would not come away because they were barbed. I stayed with him till he died ten minutes later.

I could still hear the Baluba about me but there was no more shooting.

I started to move through the bush, knowing that if they found me they would kill me.

Suddenly there was a crashing to my right. I threw myself on the ground, rolled under a bush so that I was covered.

I heard Baluba voices almost right above me- I think they were so close I could have touched the speakers.

For one terrible moment I waited for the spear-thrust I felt sure must come. But then they moved away. They had not seen me.

I lay there without moving for three hours till it became dark. Ants and other insects crawled over me.

After it was dark I got up and moved towards the road but in such a way that I would miss the scene of the fight. I found the road and moved along it, keeping close to the trees. I felt ice cold and my teeth were chattering although I knew the night was sticky and warm. I wondered if I had malaria or fever, or something.

I walked cautiously with my gun at the ready. The night was pitch black and I could just see the pale blur of the road. I began to tremble violently.

I was jumping at every sound. I began to feel that I was being watched and followed. I stepped on a dry twig, which snapped, and my heart jumped at the sound. Suddenly I heard a distant singing. I came to a native village at the roadside where there was singing and shouting and I saw fires burning. They sounded terribly drunk. I felt certain that it was the people who had attacked us.

For a moment I had a wild impulse to creep up on them and let them have it with every bullet left in my gun. Instead I moved back into the jungle on the opposite side of the road. I was getting terribly exhausted and several times fell over roots and things and collided with tree branches in the dark.

I could hear frightening sounds and rustlings of animals about me, but I was past caring. I stumbled and put my hand on the branch of a tree to steady myself and yelled out aloud in pain and fright. The branch seemed alive with crawling insects. Something had stung my hand.

I staggered a few more yards and sank to the ground. I felt dazed and my thoughts began to wander. I thought of my mother, and the coolness of Ireland, of the rain in the streets of Dublin and how peaceful it was there.

I wished so much that I could get out of this God-forsaken country of filth, sweat and heat and savages. I think I prayed it might be so. I think I dozed or fell into a stupor or something then because suddenly it was getting light.

Pulling myself to my feet I wandered slowly through the jungle again. Suddenly I heard the sound of a truck and heard Irish voices. I shouted and ran towards the lovely sound of it. I fell but got up and kept on going and came out on the road. It was a truck full of some of the boys from Albertville.

I fell into their arms"

PS A Patrol that later went out to search found all the missing bodies with the exception of Trooper Anthony Browne. An intensive search proved fruitless and he was officially posted "missing", presumed dead". It was not until a year later almost to the date that Trooper Brown's body was found.

[Added by Hardy]
The bodies recovered were found hanging in trees in a mutilated state.The circumstances in which Trooper Brown's body was found a year later suggest he died protecting a fallen comrade, though I don't understand why there weren't two missing bodies in that case.

Trooper Browne was posthumously awarded the Military Medal for Gallantry, with the citation: "He had a reasonable opportunity of escaping because he was not wounded but chose to remain with an injured comrade".

[Mentalman]

One of my Dad's friends served in the Congo. He still carries his tag on his key ring to remind him of his comrades, and how lucky he is to be alive at home in Ireland with his family.

[Hardy]

I did a bit more reading on the story of Trooper Browne and the full story seems somewhat different (and also explains the fact that there wasn't a second body missing for a year). Strange and sad story, compounded by the taint of internal army news management.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/congo-massacre-survivor-army-must-tell-real-story-516794.html

By JEROME REILLY

Sunday November 05 2000
ONE of the two survivors of the Niemba massacre in the Congo in 1960 has broken his silence about what he believed was a mix-up in the aftermath of the greatest loss of life of Irish soldiers on UN peacekeeping duties.

In the week of the 40th anniversary of the massacre November 8 former trooper Thomas Kenny believes that the full truth has yet to emerge; the truth of what really happened when nine men were butchered after their 11-man patrol was attacked by Baluba tribesman. On November 22, 1960 the funeral of those who died some clubbed to death, others struck by poisoned arrows attracted one of the biggest crowds ever witnessed in Dublin since the deaths of Daniel O'Connell, Charles Stewart Parnell and Michael Collins.

In the wake of the Niemba Massacre, a legend grew up. It was the legend of 20-year-old trooper Anthony Browne, an unmarried soldier from Rialto, Dublin, who, it was claimed, had laid down his life to save that of his comrade, a married Private, Thomas Kenny from Ballyfermot. As a result Army top brass decided that Trooper Browne was to be the first recipient of the coveted Medal of Honour. But the legend fostered by the Army and deflecting from what was a military disaster was false.

Trooper Anthony Browne did not die at the scene of the Niemba massacre, nor did he die later on of wounds sustained there. Most importantly, as far as trooper Thomas Kenny is concerned, Trooper Browne did not give up his life so that Kenny could survive.

"I am not trying to denigrate the bravery of Anto Browne during that attack when it was every man for himself, I saw him firing and fighting with the best of them. But everyone believes he died to save me and that is not the truth," Mr Kenny told the Sunday Independent.

The former soldier, who is now in his mid-60s, says that he revealed all this in his initial statement to Army officers on his return from the Congo but that original statement was "lost" and another version of events gained credence. It is now accepted that Browne's body was not among those recovered at the scene in the days following the massacre, which took place near a crossing of the River Luweyeye. Those who died at the spot were: Lt Kevin Gleeson from Terenure; Sgt Hugh Gaynor, Leixlip; Cpl Peter Kelly, Templeogue; Cpl Liam Dougan, Cabra; Pte Matthew Farrell from Swords; Pte Thomas Fennel, Donnycarney; Pte Gerard Killeen, Rathmines and Pte Michael McGuinn from Carlow.

As well as Trooper Kenny there was another survivor, Pte Joseph Fitzpatrick. Neither man has been honoured, while the eight others who died along with Anthony Browne were posthumously awarded medals in 1998. The tragedy of Anthony Browne's death became known at official level two years after the massacre.

Following a chance conversation between an Irish army officer and a Belgian lawyer in the Congolese city of Elisabethville, the whereabouts of Browne's remains was established. The story that emerged was that the wounded Browne had wandered into the jungle after the incident at Niemba and got lost. He emerged several days later, hungry and thirsty, and begged some local Baluba tribeswomen for food and water. According to Belgian and Congolese sources, the women brought the Irish soldier something to eat and drink but they also brought along tribesmen who attacked Browne and killed him. Browne's remains were eventually located and identified almost two years after the massacre, several miles from Niemba. That discovery effectively demolished the official "myth" that Browne sacrificed his life to save Private Thomas Kenny. However, the Army, which had already awarded the Medal of Honour to Browne's parents in Dublin, did not change the official version of events.

Thomas Kenny told the Sunday Independent last week: "It is a terrible burden for everyone to think that the reason I am alive is because someone gave up his life to save me. It just isn't true and I want what really happened to become public knowledge rather than just among the Army, who have never came out and said what really happened."

In a recent letter to a former commanding officer, Mr Kenny sums up his dilemma: "You have the power to set the record straight before it is too late. I am begging for your compassion to lift this untrue burden from my shoulders and let me live out the rest of my life in dignity. I know someone had to be picked out as a hero but why should I have to be a scapegoat? I am not looking for any honours. I did nothing brave. All I did was survive with the help of God and the good training I got in the Army."

[J70]

If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.

So they should have just left Afghanistan to the Russians?

Do you have similar disdain for Spanish attempts to help us out 400 years ago? Or do you think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts and not in order to strengthen their position against the British?

[mylestheslasher]

If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.

So they should have just left Afghanistan to the Russians?

Do you have similar disdain for Spanish attempts to help us out 400 years ago? Or do you think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts and not in order to strengthen their position against the British?

Come on J70, you are not seriously suggesting that the yanks armed islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to ensure that their soverign country was no over run by an alien country. Sure didn't there old buddies the brits invade Afghanistan (and Iraq) in the early part of the last century only to have their arses bet out of both places. I don't believe anyone was to bothered about Afghanistans rights then. The policy of our enemies enemy is our friend is a total and utter failed policy. It came full circle with Bin laden, it created a beast in Sadam who was bank rolled, armed and thought how to make and use chemical weapons by the US/Brits and Germans. But when he turned bad dictator and pointed his guns at Kuwait we were told he was a monster with weapons of mass destruction and Iraqs population must be defended. No one defended them when Sadam lauched a cyanide bomb on the kurds during the Iran and Iraq war, wiping out 1000's - in fact the yanks knew about it and did nothing - Sadam was their buddy ya see. I haven't even got on to Israel yet. In summary, anyone who joins the brits or Yanks army is brain dead and needs to do some serious looking at themselves. By doing so they are supporting armies that flaunt the geneva convention and are guilty of serious war crimes. I say shame on anyone who joins an army to kill for excitement.

[J70]

If the US hadnt have trained and funded these extremists against the Soviets, then alot of these unfortuante deaths could have been avoided.

So they should have just left Afghanistan to the Russians?

Do you have similar disdain for Spanish attempts to help us out 400 years ago? Or do you think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts and not in order to strengthen their position against the British?

Come on J70, you are not seriously suggesting that the yanks armed islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan to ensure that their soverign country was no over run by an alien country. Sure didn't there old buddies the brits invade Afghanistan (and Iraq) in the early part of the last century only to have their arses bet out of both places. I don't believe anyone was to bothered about Afghanistans rights then. The policy of our enemies enemy is our friend is a total and utter failed policy. It came full circle with Bin laden, it created a beast in Sadam who was bank rolled, armed and thought how to make and use chemical weapons by the US/Brits and Germans. But when he turned bad dictator and pointed his guns at Kuwait we were told he was a monster with weapons of mass destruction and Iraqs population must be defended. No one defended them when Sadam lauched a cyanide bomb on the kurds during the Iran and Iraq war, wiping out 1000's - in fact the yanks knew about it and did nothing - Sadam was their buddy ya see. I haven't even got on to Israel yet. In summary, anyone who joins the brits or Yanks army is brain dead and needs to do some serious looking at themselves. By doing so they are supporting armies that flaunt the geneva convention and are guilty of serious war crimes. I say shame on anyone who joins an army to kill for excitement.

The US helped the Afghans against the Soviets in the same way as the Spanish tried to help us against the Brits i.e. out of self-interest in the context of a broader struggle between powerful nations, and a struggle in which we ourselves (like most other nations) are happy to choose sides to our own advantage, be it in accepting assistance against Britain or in lending our implicit or explicit support to America in the modern age in exchange for trade and protection. Not saying its necessarily a bad thing, its just the way of the world and you do what you can to get by in the shadow of more powerful nations.

I agree with you on the "enemy of my enemy" thing, and hopefully the US has learned from their past experiences. The rhetoric of the right a few years back seemed to suggest so, but I wouldn't count on anything. Memories fade quickly.

[SuperMac]

I have personally known a number of southerners who have served in the RIR, the Irish Guards and even the SAS, but at the time this was all kind of hush hush. To a man it has either been because the Irish Army refused them or they wanted to see action i.e. kill people and blow shit up. What also struck me as weird was most of them had negative experiences of discrimination because they were Irish, although I would have thought that was to be expected.

Not trying to put you on the spot, but can you give me an idea or example of discrimination they faced ? WAs it just verbal been referred to as an Irish bastard etc or what ?? And did any of them regret joining the brits due to their experiences ??