Mayo 3-11 Sligo 0-7 Champions Dethroned

[Maradona]

Bit unfair to be blaming management for players like Tiernan and Moyles not making the grade at senior level. There is a world of a difference between club and county. Some top inter-county players are often not great club performers (heaney, James Horan could be examples) while top players for their clubs week in week out often don't cut it at all at inter county level. Moyles certainly player a lot for Mayo and always looked to have massive potential, but never materialised. Was the kind of player that had to be in form.

Not cutting JOM any slack here, but I honestly feel a bit sorry for the management team at the moment because I truly think there has been a serious lack of talent coming through for the last 5+ years. We have got to the point where people here are heralding Keith Higgins who is still a bit unproven to me at senior level. Yes he can run all day, but has been found wanting too many times in defensive duties. Midfield has been a problem really for years - McGarrity was somewhat 'manufactured' into a footballer, Harte a forward converted into a midfielder. We are now looking to un-tested youngsters really in Parsons and O'Shea to partner McGarrity. Upfront nothing of serious quality has come through since Conor Mortimer in the early 2000's. I know its a bit of a cliché, but I blame the underage systems and the coaching / type of player being brought through. The recent U21 success only really served to camouflage this really

[the Deel Rover]

I know its a bit of a cliché, but I blame the underage systems and the coaching / type of player being brought through. The recent U21 success only really served to camouflage this really

I know i read you saying something similiar before maradonna what would you do  to change the current system?

[Lar Naparka]

I'd like to be clear on one thing from the outset:
I always trusted John O'Mahony and thought from the outset that he was our best prospect to land Sam someday.  I was also impressed by the calibre of his assistants and the fact that Martin Carney was on hand to help out.
I think he has made progress in the development of good young players and in getting older hands to mix in with the the newcomers. He certainly appears to be hard at work.
However, I have serious concerns now about his judgement.
Salthill last year saw us cleaned out tactically. Peter Ford moved his half forwards up into the corners and threw our defence into total disarray. Our lads didn't know their arses from their elbows and by the time O'Mahony reacted, Galway were out of sight.
Had he a plan B? Had he even a bloody plan A?
Okay, he was only starting off and needed another year to get a handle on things. Now we are almost 13 months on and I don't see any progress whatsoever. Sure, there are good players about and he does deserve recognition for this, but are we any nearer a settled side?
I fully accept that he can only work with what he has and it is proving hard to settle on players for set positions but O'Mahony is 18 months into his present term and there is no sign of a settled side emerging. Mickey and Beefer left with us all thinking that we only needed a 'Spine' for the side. Sligo will show no sympathy for Johnno's selection predicaments.
Today we probably have a lot of better players than we had back then but are we any closer to having a settled side?
No matter what side takes the field against Sligo will it be more used to playing together as a unit than the team that took the field in Salthill last May?
It is relatively easy to sit back and criticise but I think my worries are real ones.
Does any one agree?

[moysider]

Bit unfair to be blaming management for players like Tiernan and Moyles not making the grade at senior level. There is a world of a difference between club and county. Some top inter-county players are often not great club performers (heaney, James Horan could be examples) while top players for their clubs week in week out often don't cut it at all at inter county level. Moyles certainly player a lot for Mayo and always looked to have massive potential, but never materialised. Was the kind of player that had to be in form.

Not cutting JOM any slack here, but I honestly feel a bit sorry for the management team at the moment because I truly think there has been a serious lack of talent coming through for the last 5+ years. We have got to the point where people here are heralding Keith Higgins who is still a bit unproven to me at senior level. Yes he can run all day, but has been found wanting too many times in defensive duties. Midfield has been a problem really for years - McGarrity was somewhat 'manufactured' into a footballer, Harte a forward converted into a midfielder. We are now looking to un-tested youngsters really in Parsons and O'Shea to partner McGarrity. Upfront nothing of serious quality has come through since Conor Mortimer in the early 2000's. I know its a bit of a cliché, but I blame the underage systems and the coaching / type of player being brought through. The recent U21 success only really served to camouflage this really

Not sure about some of the above Maradona. Likes of Parsons, Campbell, the O Sheas - especially the younger one-would be regarded as serious talent in any county. Big athletic lads and good footballers. Recent U21 success only shows that we have better footballers than most. The current minor team has half a dozen players who look like they will be senior players. Thats serious potential for one year. Senior management has a role in nurturing this talent and blending them into a team. Remember few people were aware of James Horan before Autumn 95. People were still scoffing about him in June 96. A few months later he was practically one of the immortals. We need some player/s to blossom like he did this summer. Management are largely responsible for how we do because they re responsible for team selection, tactics etc. For example they re putting alot of faith in Austin O Malley in a kind of full forward roll. A lot of people, and I include myself here, have doubts about Austin. If he does a James Horan on it then it could be a thing that catapults us forward and management will get the acclaim for a great call and rightly so. But if it does nt work management will have to take everything thrown at them. Their apologists can not defend them by saying that the lad was never up to it [ a lot could have pointed  that out to them ages ago and saved them time] or they had no other option or lack of talent. Its a call they ve had 18 months to get this right. This is just an example and I dont want to be seen to be singling O Malley out. There are other calls management have to get right too. They have already nailed their colours to the mast re McDonald and his being superfluous to needs. Their new Mayo needs to convince us that we ve moved on for the better and not just moved on.

[highorlow]

Conor Mortimor is injured.

Anyone anything further on the extent? Will he be available for selection for 22nd?

[highorlow]

sorry should have checked page 7.

[Maradona]

Heading into a championship and being any sort of contenders I would think you would need to be able to name at least 10 players straight that have proven through consistency / ability / fitness (which has to take into account age) that they are able to cut it at senior championship level. At the moment I would only be able to name the following:

1 Clarke
2
3
4
5 Heaney
6
7 K Higgins
8 McGarrity
9
10 Dillon
11
12
13 C Mortimer
14
15

Others have yet to prove themselves and may never really make the grade. Arguments can be made for likes of T Mortimer, Gardiner, but being realistic neither can nail down a regular starting position - if either excelled in a particular position, they would be playing there.

As regards underage -
- Our colleges / schools, with the exception of one or two, do not put in the necessary effort or take seriously enough in order to be competitive even at provincial level. Personally I went to a college in a fairly large town in Mayo with 2 former well known and passionate ex-mayo players on the staff, but there was no serious prep for the championship
- you really have to see the coaching at underage in mayo to understand where we are going wrong. Basically great prospects are going through the system and not being properly assessed on ability and areas for improvement and coached accordingly. What happens is that we get players at senior level that can lack basic skills like the ability to catch or kick a ball. I am fully aware that it is easy to sit back and criticise, and there is no perfect system, but I think it is quiet evident that the system at present is not working. As I said before, we are a big enough county to bring through reasonable teams now and again that will bring some success either way but this only serves to hide the real facts

[kevmy]

Barney is correct about the uncertainty surrounding the selection and the importance of progress being made this year. I m not too optimistic about progress but I ll keep my powder dry until I see what unfolds on 22nd. There is very little public interest - in my niche of the woods, so far anyway. Some people think this is a good thing. I dont. If there is little interest in the County team in June what s the point?  If things go belly up in Connacht and we exit the qualifiers down the country somewhere there would be a lot less fuss than if we lost a semi or AI final in the full public glare. I get the impression that management and some other Mayo football people would be content with a low key championship where we bring little attention to ourselves. I believe that those who believe management have some secret selection/game-plan to unleash- or ambush plan as Barney puts - it will be disappointed. I believe management is making this up [ the selection process anyway] as they go along. Anybody who attended the games earlier in Spring would have been able to see the cogs turning in management's head.

I'm not sure what the big hoo-ha is over the uncertainty in selection. In my mind all players being fit we have very few places to fill - obviously Howley and Mort being injured has thrown the cat among the pigeons.

Look at it this way Clarke is a definite in goals, the half back line of Heaney, Howley and Higgins, midfield of McGarrity and Parsons, full forward line of Mort, Austie and Andy Moran are all certainties and add in Dillon on the forty.

That leaves FB line and 2 wing forwards. Wing forwards we have options and I think most people aren't worrying that much about them, pick any 2 from Trevor, Gill, Harte, Campbell, Kilcoyne, Gardiner. I'd say most people would like Trevor in the team somewhere plus he adds bite so I'd say he's 90% certain of a spot.
FB line is where the problem is and in fairness it was a problem before Johnno took over - all you have to do is cast your minds back to 04 and 06 finals to recognise that. So far he's tried Kilcullen, BJP and now Conroy in FB. Conroy seems to be the man in possession and will probably start against sligo. Corner backs are few and far between it seems. Liam O'Malley has lost all form which dates back to Salthill last year, Dermot Geragthy decided to leave the panel and Cunniffe and Boyle are, as I already mentioned, natural half backs. So it look like we'll have to put round pegs in square holes. Again I don't know can this be blamed on Johnno he's tried lads out in the hope the show something - which is what the league is for. I'm not sure how fatal this is though almost every team in the country has one or two spots they have trouble with. Kerry were looking for a FF for a few years till they got Donaghy and are playing Moynihan and McCarthy out of position in FB to fill that spot yet they still win AI's. Tyrone put Cormac McAnallen in FB in the Ulster final straight outta midfield and went on to win the AI.
In short I think Johnno had a rebuilding job to do and he's getting on with it. He's found a centre back and options in midfield and seems to have settled on Austie in FF which were 3 of 4 positions (the other being FB) everyone was worried about when he took over.

As for a quite build up well it is only Sligo and it's still 2 and half weeks away. We all know that Johnno likes to play down expectations as well which mightn't be a bad thing in this county. But I'd say lay off him until this Championship is done anyway if we see progress then good if not ye can start tooting yer horns then.

[Barney]

Agree with Maradonna's state of play on the line-up.

Too many players in Mayo make reputations from people seeing their names in the local papers as having good games, and one-off league performances.

We have an average bunch to pick from but without a settled team you are in major trouble.

Pat O'Shea can name 12/13 of his team since last September. Any of the management panels with a firm idea of where they are going can.

As moysider said the league showed an absence of any major plan, or way of thinking. Last year was the same. The chickens came home to roost very quickly in Salthill and it was only then that a major change was initiated, and somewhat departed from again.

I agree the management should be assessed on the championship alone, but things are very worrying. Needless to say I don't expect to be invading City West come October, and personally I don't think we will see much action past July.

[magpie seanie]

As for a quite build up well it is only Sligo

Come into my web said the spider to the fly....

[Barney]

Come into my web said the spider to the fly....

Now Seanie - ye're hardly a black widow!

Anyway you can see the pessimism here. I hope it spreads to the players because if there is complacency we will lose.

[SLIGONIAN]

Well with all due respect, if the build up is quite anywhere its Sligo....waiting in the long grasss for its prey . Look at this board we arent giving away too much either  . Mayos build up however hasnt been plane sailing with mcdonald gate, mortimer injury and to see on here the amount of debate at this time of year on team selections its quite heartening for me reading this board .

[moysider]

Heading into a championship and being any sort of contenders I would think you would need to be able to name at least 10 players straight that have proven through consistency / ability / fitness (which has to take into account age) that they are able to cut it at senior championship level. At the moment I would only be able to name the following:

1 Clarke
2
3
4
5 Heaney
6
7 K Higgins
8 McGarrity
9
10 Dillon
11
12
13 C Mortimer
14
15

Others have yet to prove themselves and may never really make the grade. Arguments can be made for likes of T Mortimer, Gardiner, but being realistic neither can nail down a regular starting position - if either excelled in a particular position, they would be playing there.

As regards underage -
- Our colleges / schools, with the exception of one or two, do not put in the necessary effort or take seriously enough in order to be competitive even at provincial level. Personally I went to a college in a fairly large town in Mayo with 2 former well known and passionate ex-mayo players on the staff, but there was no serious prep for the championship
- you really have to see the coaching at underage in mayo to understand where we are going wrong. Basically great prospects are going through the system and not being properly assessed on ability and areas for improvement and coached accordingly. What happens is that we get players at senior level that can lack basic skills like the ability to catch or kick a ball. I am fully aware that it is easy to sit back and criticise, and there is no perfect system, but I think it is quiet evident that the system at present is not working. As I said before, we are a big enough county to bring through reasonable teams now and again that will bring some success either way but this only serves to hide the real facts

If one was to apply the same criteria to the Mayo team in June 96 ......

1.
2
3. Cahill
4
5.
6.
7
8.
9. McHale
10.
11.Colm Mac
12.
13.
14.
15. Dempsey - if fit

[OirthearMhaigheo]

Well with all due respect, if the build up is quite anywhere its Sligo....waiting in the long grasss for its prey . Look at this board we arent giving away too much either  . Mayos build up however hasnt been plane sailing with mcdonald gate, mortimer injury and to see on here the amount of debate at this time of year on team selections its quite heartening for me reading this board .

In fairness we have a GAA population at least 3 times the size of Sligo's so you're going to see alot more posts from us. Believe me it is a quiet build up in Mayo, very little optimism for the year ahead at the moment.
I agree with kevmy on the team selection issue. It is really only the full back line that is impossible to name, but this has been a problem for a while. I would have hoped Johnno et al would have sorted this by now but it appears they can't, enough people have been tried but no one has really claimed either a corner back spot or the FB role. I expect Conroy will be left at it and unfortunately K Higgins will be brought back to one of the corners. At the other end, if Mort doesn't make the Sligo game I would be concerned and I would have to review my initial optimism of winning by a few points, one point will do!

[magpie seanie]

Now Seanie - ye're hardly a black widow!

No we're not - but we mightn't need to be!

Just havin the craic. Under no illusions about it.