European Final

[Hoof Hearted]

Elissalde: It's not rugby
Toulouse star hits out at Munster gameplan
Last updated: 26th May 2008



Elissalde: Unimpressed


Toulouse fly-half Jean-Baptiste Elissalde has hit out at the manner in which Munster recorded their 16-13 victory in the Heineken Cup Final on Saturday.



The Frenchman was so frustrated with the Irish side's keep-ball tactics that he eventually lost his cool and was seen arguing vehemently with referee Nigel Owens late in the game.


Whilst Elissalde was gracious enough to accept the defeat, he was far from happy in the manner which Munster won.


"Munster deserved what they got because we weren't very good but you can't play rugby like that," he told The Guardian.


"There were 15 minutes at the end of the game where we couldn't get our hands on the ball without infringing.



Off the hook


"It's getting like basketball where the only option is to make a technical error and take the points. That's not rugby, it's nothing."


Despite his criticism of Munster, Elissalde was quick to admit that he and his Toulouse team-mates were guilty of letting their opponents off the hook after the French outfit failed to capitalise on their early dominance at the Millennium Stadium.


"If we had got a lead, then the last five minutes wouldn't have been pick-and-go, they couldn't have done it for ever," he added.


"Le pick-and-go is meaningless, it's not rugby.


"I have nothing against the referee at all but he wasn't able to referee it. Either he had to let everything go, in which case it would have been total chaos, or he would have had to stop the game at every ruck.


"You had one guy diving alone on to the ground, another on top. At the end, I told him there were only blues (Munster) on the ground, no reds (Toulouse), no tackler and tackled, so I was not breaking the rules. But my English isn't super."

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in sport, especially professional sport, you play to your strenghts to get results. its a results and trophies type of business, just ask Avram Grant
what did ellisalde want munster do, throw i wide and try to score more tries. he needs to catch himself on. munster havent got vincent clerc, heymans or ellisalde type players

[Bogball XV]

in sport, especially professional sport, you play to your strenghts to get results. its a results and trophies type of business, just ask Avram Grant
what did ellisalde want munster do, throw i wide and try to score more tries. he needs to catch himself on. munster havent got vincent clerc, heymans or ellisalde type players

That's the point though, maybe it's time professional sport realised that it's supposed to be entertainment, results are grand for a while, but eventually if you can't entertain too, you won't appeal - Chelsea have the been the most successful english side of the past 4/5 years, but they don't appeal to most people, it's up to the rule makers in the various games to try and open them up more, in fairness to rugby legislators, they do try and update the laws very frequently in an effort to make their sport watchable (as a minority sport they have to).
Whilst you can respect that Munster did what they had to do to win, that doesn't make it good entertainment, but that's why the powers that be will change the rules

I'm still a bit wound up after Saturday, and can't really articulate my thoughts yet. However, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby.

You should remember that this competition wasn't top of Clermont's priorities, they fielded their reserves in their away games and yet were only denied progess because they allowed Munster to get within 7 of them at home.
Saracens are hardly giants of the english game, though admittedly the defeats of Gloucester and Toulouse (albeit very understrength ) were impressive results.

Would ye ever catch yoursleves on.  Munster achievement possibly renders them the greatest Irish sporting team of all time, and yes are knocking them for playing to their strengths.  Look at the size of us and our resources.  

I don't agree, if everyone else took the heineken as seriously as the celtic teams do, then yes, but they don't - they probably should, but they don't.  Munster have the huge advantage of being able to peak for their heineken games, the frenchies in particular don't, there's even talk that the Anglo-Welsh cup is starting to supercede the heino for the welsh teams, but maybe that's because they've underachieved so badly in the heino.

[Hardy]

I suppose this was repeated in bars up and down the country, but where I was watching it, every time there was a penalty goal attempt, the crowd in the pub were going "shhhhhh...". Funny, but the thing is, I think some of them were serious.

[AZOffaly]

Bogball, I think you are being harsh there. Clermont were on top in France, and threatened to blow Munster away, but Munster dug deep in themselves and got the vital bonus point. That was a brilliant second half performance, and possibly the winning of the tournament, even back in January. Wasps at home was a good performance as well, as was Gloucester away. Saracens may not be giants of the game, but they emphatically put the Ospreys to the sword, and were very unlucky not to beat Munster.

Clermont might have been silly with their selections away from home, but who's to say Munster wouldn't have answered them? They've answered a lot of questions, from a lot of people, over the years and they absolutely deserved this.

Don't allow the media hype and hyperbole distract you from acknowledging a real team of achievers from Ireland, we have few enough of them in any sport. They might have a big sideshow running in parallel, but they conduct themselves brilliantly, and prepare dilligently, and continue to push themselves to great things.

Fair play to them, I say.

[Hoof Hearted]

fair play to them surely
strange that it is the irish here who runs them down
for any of you who watch the rugby club, barnes, morris and greenwood talk about munster week in week out and praise them to the high heavens. greenwood said one week, was before a game agoinst one of the english clubs, that he should be supporting the english club but he wasnt, just so that "i can get to watch munster again"

[AZOffaly]

In fairness Hoof, I think there is a natural Irish tendency to see through bullshite media reporting and hyperbole, which other people seem to be able to digest easily. It's a pity when you can't accept and dislike the rubbish that is written about them (Munster) but still be pleased for them, and their successes.

Feck it, with a recession on the way, house prices in the toilet and unemployment about to rise, isn't it great to see thousands of smiley faces with stupid paint on their faces

The buzz around Limerick all weekend was fantastic, and it's just good to have something to be that happy about.

[thebandit]

Was anyone else disappointed with the presentation? Sure you couldn't see the players!!

[Hoof Hearted]

In fairness Hoof, I think there is a natural Irish tendency to see through bullshite media reporting and hyperbole, which other people seem to be able to digest easily. It's a pity when you can't accept and dislike the rubbish that is written about them (Munster) but still be pleased for them, and their successes.

Feck it, with a recession on the way, house prices in the toilet and unemployment about to rise, isn't it great to see thousands of smiley faces with stupid paint on their faces

The buzz around Limerick all weekend was fantastic, and it's just good to have something to be that happy about.

well no doubt you can imagine what cardiff was like !! im sure you were there in 2006.
as dinny said on friday, it would be a fabulous experience and it definately was, so much so that i booked 2 tickets last night for next year !
www.scottishrugby.org - and you can follow the seating plan and choose your own

[brokencrossbar1]

Jeez lads, what are you like, whining when we win, bitching when we lose!

As someone pointed out we all cheered on Ireland under big Jack when they played the abomination he developed.  I was happy to see them beat teams 1-0.  The thing is we do not have a infinite resource of talent like the other countries have.  By winnign twice Munster are punching well above where they should be.  

Also the pressure on coaches to win is immense, particularly from the sponsors.  Do you think the management of Toyota give a continental damn how Munster play, they just want to be associated with a winning team.  "Munster and Toyota, together we are a winning team."  These are the drivers behind any team and to think otherwise is folly.  

The simple fact of the matter is that Muster have a certain type of player.  They have developed a system of rugby and fitted these players around it, and it works.  I know we are caricatured as being a shower of begrudging fcukers but is it not about time we let this ridiculous nonsense go.  We have a team who have reached the pinnacle in club rugby in Europe for a second time.  Good teams win it once, great teams do it twice (I know, I know we're not great in apple chomping land ).  You do not get to that level simply by playing pick and go rugby.  Their greatness has to be assessed over the period of the campaign and they have played damn good rugby and for anyone to say otherwise strikes me as ill-informed and sour grapes.

[Dinny Breen]

I don't anyone is begrudging to Munster, I think everyone has awknowledged what a magnificent achivement it was but I for one didn't like the last 20 minutes of the game as a neutral, it was just too negative for me. And while I understand why Quinlan did what he did likewise I hate cynicism in sport at any level.  They're just my opinions, some people are just too sensitive and get wrapped up in the bs in the media and the hyperbole as AZ calls it.

[Main Street]

However, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby

.
That's it in a nutshell. Munster had travelled the hardest journey of them all to get to the final.

I'm happy that they closed the game out, although I accept it is horrible to watch, and horribly frustrating to play against.

Toulouse lost the game before the last 15 minutes.
Everyman and their dog knew if Munster were ahead this was going to happen.
Ugly as it was, it was still riveting to watch.

[Bogball XV]

However, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby

.
That's it in a nutshell. Munster had travelled the hardest journey of them all to get to the final.

Somewhat helped by the fact that they could rest up for a few weeks after each round of heineken matches.
I'm not trying to be too begrudging here, just wanting to shed a wee bit of reality on the achievement, i also wouldn't think that Munster are lacking resources relative to other sides in the tournament.  
They did well, it's effective but not pretty, if they want me to support them they'll have to try and play a bit more expansively (see their game v Sale 2 years ago for an example).

[AZOffaly]

I'm not trying to be too begrudging here, just wanting to shed a wee bit of reality on the achievement, i also wouldn't think that Munster are lacking resources relative to other sides in the tournament. 

For perspective, Munster's (and Leinster and Ulster I believe) budget is about €5m. Toulouses is €22m.

They did well, it's effective but not pretty, if they want me to support them they'll have to try and play a bit more expansively (see their game v Sale 2 years ago for an example).

I firmly believe that is part of their strategic, as opposed to tactical, plan. Munster will always try to play 'winning' rugby, but I think they know that they must have an element of expansiveness in their arsenal too, and for what it's worth, I thought they played far more 'rugby' this season than ever before. I expect that to continue and to grow. However, if they need to, or if the circumstances dictate, they will stick it up the jumper to make sure they win the big games if they can, and that's okay by me too.

[Kerry Mike]

LEGENDS

Am only back this evening, will write more later in the week when I recover.

[Tankie]

Lads we cant really criticize a team for winning playing negitive rugby, as a leinster fan I would have had no problem with leinster winning like that if it was required, i do believe that munster could have expanded their game and still won but I've played many a game where we are camped on the try for 10mins and there was not a hope in hell we would trust the backs with the ball, forwards rugby is still rugby and can be beautiful too if you know the rules. People say toulouse didnt have the ball in the last 15mins, if i recall correctly they had it 3 times and got turned over each time.

I think fair play to munster on winning this competion and there should be some great craic in the inter - pros next season.

(also on negetive play, if Nordie teams didnt play negative football non of them would never have won an All Ireland )