The 2008 US Election thread

[Owenmoresider]

Lads, what has Obama actually achieved in his political career, that makes him the subject of such adulation? All I've heard is vague rhetoric thus far, maybe he might get going when he wins the nomination (looking likely now), otherwise Walter Mondale's line about Gary Hart may ring true again.

[spectator]

I see today that Bill Clinton said the supposed Dream ticket Clinton/Obama, Obama/Clinton is virtually unstoppable...Of course Bill thinks that Hilary should be top of the ticket...That would have to be decided by the superdelegates...If the superdelegates leave either of them off the ticket...there could be a huge backlash from whichever section of the Democratic voters that feels slighted...

Dems have being voting in this primary like never before and Obama deserves a lot of credit for this.  Methinks, that the Clintons are preparing for a Vice Presidential spot on the ticket for Hilary....It has been said that neither can win without the super delegates.  It could be a the only way to keep all the new Dems on board in November...
Is a compromise in the making behind closed doors..

Quite possibly. They could be looking at the realpolitik of getting the Dems back into power - it'd be a powerful joint ticket - but, as you've also suggested, a good case can be made that the Clintons are putting their Plan B in place also, in the event of Obama winning the nomination.

When LBJ agreed to become JFK's running mate after a fractious Dem campaign in 1960, he was ridiculed & even his own supporters wondered how he could humiliate himself by accepting it? Kennedy needed the southern votes though & was pragmatic enough to put necessity before their own personal differences. LBJ shrewdly figured there might be some gain in it for himself as well as the party, never mind that others thought he had lost his marbles.

Quite correctly as it turned out, inside a few years LBJ took over following JFK's assasination & was re-elected as President in his own right the following term.

Never forget that politicians are pragmatists when it comes to arranging & positioning themselves to get their hands on power. Little things like personality clashes or differences of opinion won't stop them from doing what they have to do, when the right time comes.

It seems Obama is holding most of the cards currently though. Clinton might be a good choice of running mate in the long run, especially if he \ Dems are to survive the inevitable Rep dirt dishing later on. Look out for words like 'unity' &  'for the sake of the party \ country' etc in that event.

If Obama doesn't pick Clinton, rest asured he thinks (a) he can win without her & (b) he wants to scupper her as he sees her as a very real threat to his position in the future.

Lovely game, politics

[Boynegael]

Headlines today...that the passport files of Obama, Clinton and McCain have all been snooped at by unauthorized personnel, resulting in the firing of two and disciplinary action taken against a third person..  Obama's apparantly was looked at three times.  Just wondering what information these files might contain that would not already be public record for high profile people like them. Not excusing the snooping here.... Do these files contain a travel history for each.  I would imagine it contains DOB and place of birth for self, mother and father...but what else.  I can't remember what was on my form when I filled it out, is SS # included.

What could be gained from such snooping?  I understand Obama travelled extensively as a child and lived in countries that might be considered hostile. Could this be a factor where he is concerned. What about Clinton and McCain...I would imagine someone is looking for some kind of dirt to be exploited...
Anybody got any thoughts on this?

[Boynegael]

Appears to be just some nosey workers from the Company who has the contract to manufacture US Passports for the Government....Although there seems to have been a lot a access to these files given by the current Government to Contractors..
Not as bad as the thirteen who got fired from UCLA for snooping in Britney's medical files...I'd say there was some reading in them...and they were rightly fired...

[magpie seanie]

OMS - surprised at you just trotting out the Clintons party line. Obama has achieved plenty in terms of getting legislation passed while on the state legislature in Illinois and in his time in the senate. Also, unlike McCain and Hillary, he had the brains and the balls to say no to the Iraq war from the start. Can you tell me what Hillary or McCain have achieved thats so great about them? Maybe you credit Hillary with the Good Friday Agreement like they're trying to in the US!

The potential of Obama is huge. He is the intellectual heavyweight and has the most guts. He is not in hock to vested interests in the same way the other candidates are. I have no question that he is the best option and to be honest I've very excited about the prospect of him becoming US President. Have a read of his website if you're worried about lack of details. Its all there what he intends to do.

[Boynegael]

Totally agree with you that Obama has a lot of guts...He has been under a lot of pressure this week, because of the comments of Jerimiah Wright, and his own "typical white reaction" remark......IMO he handled it with grace, guts and class....I don't think he said anything in his speech that wasn't true...I suspect the others in the same situation would be seeking out a new faith by now...There aren't many politicians who will stand their ground in the face of that pressure...

I took no offense at his, "typical white reaction"...

just last week, I was taking the subway home from Manhattan....about 3 stops before I got off, I ended up in a carraige, alone with a black, middle aged man, wearing a parka...Immediately I felt anxious, kept my head down and wished the train to hurry up....This man did nothing untoward, was not menacing, didn't speak to me....in other words, there was no overt reason for my anxiety.....I guess, I had a "typical white reaction" to my situation...the shame is on me.....

[stew]

Totally agree with you that Obama has a lot of guts...He has been under a lot of pressure this week, because of the comments of Jerimiah Wright, and his own "typical white reaction" remark......IMO he handled it with grace, guts and class....I don't think he said anything in his speech that wasn't true...I suspect the others in the same situation would be seeking out a new faith by now...There aren't many politicians who will stand their ground in the face of that pressure...

I took no offense at his, "typical white reaction"...

just last week, I was taking the subway home from Manhattan....about 3 stops before I got off, I ended up in a carraige, alone with a black, middle aged man, wearing a parka...Immediately I felt anxious, kept my head down and wished the train to hurry up....This man did nothing untoward, was not menacing, didn't speak to me....in other words, there was no overt reason for my anxiety.....I guess, I had a "typical white reaction" to my situation...the shame is on me.....


Sure wasnt he born Muslim and turned! I find it interesting that his father still bothers with  him, wasnt there a case lately where a Muslim killed his brother and it was deemed ok because his brother had the audicity to turn toward Christianity.

I'd say the republicians would rather face Obama than Clinton. Many people feel that America is not ready for a black president and sadly I agree with them. I think he is easily the class of the Democrats but some people are afraid of his colour and his interesting spiritual journey.

I would love to see a black president myself. This country needs a shake up and I believe Obama would be a great candidate to do just that.

I have no time at all for Clinton, he reminds me a lot of Thatcher.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

I'm getting quite interested in the build-up to the US elections, but am still at a loss as to peoples massive dislike of Hillary?
Is it dislike by association (Bill), is it because she is a hard assed women or what is it?

[J70]

just last week, I was taking the subway home from Manhattan....about 3 stops before I got off, I ended up in a carraige, alone with a black, middle aged man, wearing a parka...Immediately I felt anxious, kept my head down and wished the train to hurry up....This man did nothing untoward, was not menacing, didn't speak to me....in other words, there was no overt reason for my anxiety.....I guess, I had a "typical white reaction" to my situation...the shame is on me.....

I think I felt a little like that when I first went back to NY to work for a spell in the early 90s as a naive young fella. I wouldn't give it a second thought any more though, although I would still be wary late at night. You probably have a bigger chance of running into bother in Dublin these days than New York.

[J70]

I'm getting quite interested in the build-up to the US elections, but am still at a loss as to peoples massive dislike of Hillary?
Is it dislike by association (Bill), is it because she is a hard assed women or what is it?

There is a huge range of things, from her failed attempt to nationalize health insurance in the early 90s, to her blaming the right wing media for all of Bill's troubles, to all of the theories (conspiracies or otherwise) about her and her husband's ruthless methods and dodgy dealings, to her "carpetbagging" a senate seat in NY, to the general perception of entitlement/annointment that (at one stage) surrounded her primary run. Whether all of this is fair, I don't know. She has been demonized so much at this stage that it is remarkable that she is doing as well as she is and hasn't imploded like Howard Dean last time out. At least some of Obama's success, in my opinion, can be put down to nervousness regarding Hillary's prospects in the general election, should she get the nomination. Almost half of the country will not vote for her, no matter what, which leaves a very thin margin to play with. Obama appeared to have far more crossover appeal, in terms of independents and moderate Republicans, with McCain probably in a similar boat, assuming he can woo enough conservatives in the end. Whether Obama's recent struggles will affect his broader appeal remains to be seen.

[Boynegael]

Stew....

you are going to highlight my quotes....I would prefer that you quote ONLY me....don't bundle me in with multiple statements in an attempt to align them with me.....after "shame on me"...the rest of your quote belongs to someone else...I stand by everything I've said thus far on this thread..

Are you "Karl Stewie Rove??

[J70]

Lads, what has Obama actually achieved in his political career, that makes him the subject of such adulation? All I've heard is vague rhetoric thus far, maybe he might get going when he wins the nomination (looking likely now), otherwise Walter Mondale's line about Gary Hart may ring true again.

Arguably the greatest ever president of the US (its always between him and Washington in polls), Abraham Lincoln, was a lawyer who had served one two-year term in the House of Representatives when he became president. His predecessor, James Buchanan, arrived in the White House with a stunning CV, including Secretary of State, lengthy terms in both houses of congress and important diplomatic appointments, but is generally rated one of the two worst presidents ever. Not saying accomplishments are irrelevant, but they aren't always all they're cracked up to be or a great predictor of the ability of a president. I don't think Obama's CV pales that much in comparison to Hillary anyway, whose accomplishments have mainly come as the spouse of a very powerful husband.

[magickingdom]

I'm getting quite interested in the build-up to the US elections, but am still at a loss as to peoples massive dislike of Hillary?
Is it dislike by association (Bill), is it because she is a hard assed women or what is it?

There is a huge range of things, from her failed attempt to nationalize health insurance in the early 90s, to her blaming the right wing media for all of Bill's troubles, to all of the theories (conspiracies or otherwise) about her and her husband's ruthless methods and dodgy dealings, to her "carpetbagging" a senate seat in NY, to the general perception of entitlement/annointment that (at one stage) surrounded her primary run. Whether all of this is fair, I don't know. She has been demonized so much at this stage that it is remarkable that she is doing as well as she is and hasn't imploded like Howard Dean last time out. At least some of Obama's success, in my opinion, can be put down to nervousness regarding Hillary's prospects in the general election, should she get the nomination. Almost half of the country will not vote for her, no matter what, which leaves a very thin margin to play with. Obama appeared to have far more crossover appeal, in terms of independents and moderate Republicans, with McCain probably in a similar boat, assuming he can woo enough conservatives in the end. Whether Obama's recent struggles will affect his broader appeal remains to be seen.

i take your points j70 but hillary was hated by the right way before she became a senator for ny or became a canditate for the dem nomination. why i have never quite understood myself.. since when did healthcare for all become a monster

[J70]

I'm getting quite interested in the build-up to the US elections, but am still at a loss as to peoples massive dislike of Hillary?
Is it dislike by association (Bill), is it because she is a hard assed women or what is it?

There is a huge range of things, from her failed attempt to nationalize health insurance in the early 90s, to her blaming the right wing media for all of Bill's troubles, to all of the theories (conspiracies or otherwise) about her and her husband's ruthless methods and dodgy dealings, to her "carpetbagging" a senate seat in NY, to the general perception of entitlement/annointment that (at one stage) surrounded her primary run. Whether all of this is fair, I don't know. She has been demonized so much at this stage that it is remarkable that she is doing as well as she is and hasn't imploded like Howard Dean last time out. At least some of Obama's success, in my opinion, can be put down to nervousness regarding Hillary's prospects in the general election, should she get the nomination. Almost half of the country will not vote for her, no matter what, which leaves a very thin margin to play with. Obama appeared to have far more crossover appeal, in terms of independents and moderate Republicans, with McCain probably in a similar boat, assuming he can woo enough conservatives in the end. Whether Obama's recent struggles will affect his broader appeal remains to be seen.

i take your points j70 but hillary was hated by the right way before she became a senator for ny or became a canditate for the dem nomination. why i have never quite understood myself.. since when did healthcare for all become a monster

Don't get me wrong, I know Hillary has been demonized for years - the senate run etc are just additional points laid against her.

Healthcare is a hugely controversial issue in the states because they've allowed themselves to get into a position where its supplied as an employment benefit for most people, which means that if your particular job doesn't grant that benefit, you may be fcuked. My employer pays half of my premium, but I still end up paying more than $200 per month for my share of the cost. Only the very poor qualify for medicaid, which would be similar to the medical card system in Ireland. Pensioners get covered under medicare, but even then they have to buy extra insurance to cover a lot of their potential costs.

[magickingdom]

i worked in the states for 10 years (ny and california) and healthcare is a biggie alright. in fairness to hillary all she tried to do was devise a system where everyone had access to some form of health cover and she got hammered (i dont think healthcare is as bad in the states as its made out to be and the best r&d is in the states) way beyond anything that was justified. your right close to 45% of voters wont touch her..