Frank McGuigan on grants

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Reading this week's Ulster Herald, I see that the county chairman, Mr Darcy, has announced that instead of a collective holiday, the squad, managment and backroom members of the senior county squad will be issued with £1400 voucher to take their holidays when they want to go.

Do the anti-grants people feel this is wrong?

If its just a one-off & ring-fenced, I could tolerate it. If it becomes a regular occurrence I would be against it.

You mean if its just a one-off that it is holiday voucher?
Surely you wouldn't accept a regular holiday then as it is not an expense??

[Zulu]

By that definition, are you against say your club taking & paying for the under 14 team away for a day trip to the cinema & bowling alley with a feed afterwards at the end of the season?

Tram, DFS has already answered that, as he said in the post just previous to that....

My view is that if you support the Grants like I do then there is no issue with Student Grants, player holidays, All-Star trips, International Rules, Players going to the US, Managers getting paid etc (In other words everything that is currently and openly going on (apart from Managers getting paid)),

And like him I have no problem with any of this, but I fail to see how you can oppose the grants while feeling these things are acceptable.

[lynchbhoy]

Not sure why you are asking, are you suggesting that if you choose a path that prevents you from working full time you deserve a grant (and at that only some who do this will get the grant) but if you can work you shouldn't get anything?
                               But to answer your question other than the summer months as a student I couldn't work full time.

so you cannot work full time, and are in some way reckoning that the GAA giving grants to assist current and future players (so they can continue their studies and not drop out of college due to financial problems) - then in the future gain decent jobs arising from their educational qualifications and thus be in a position to have more time to spend training and playing football/hurling.

You are AWARDED a grant because you are a STUDENT and a footballer/hurler not because you are an inter county player and most def not because you 'deserve' one because you picked a path that prevented you from working full time, and most certainly NOT because you PLAY for the college/uni.
(Talk about putting the cart before the horse  )
If and when you leave/graduate from college and start working full time, the hand outs stop, these go to more deserving people (next batch of students) etc - and you are in a great position to fend for yourself.

Giving money to student in this way cannot be compared to pay for play But like the other examples, in a crazed last gasp effort to seek comparisons and precedents with other 'payments' and scenarios, the pay for play brigade want to bring the entire house in around them and feck it up for playes (holidays),students, refs, managers, GAA administrators and GAA appointed coaches

[ONeill]

Rolling eyes don't help an argument.

I can only summise you are unaware of the lengths some unis go to secure students. It's not as innocent as you imagine and it has nothing to do with helping hard-up students. Donal intimated that it was this aspect he was trying to address during his tenure.

[lynchbhoy]

Lynchboy - I am trying to point out that as the current system exists - Players are getting paid, students are getting paid, all-ireland winning county players are getting holidays etc - Yet everyone says that is quite alright...We will let the GAA pay out money etc no problem at all...
However - once the Govt says it will give money to "every" county player (not just All-Ireland winners) then we hear stories about "the thin end of the wedge", "the death of the GAA", "the loss of the GAA's soul", "the end of volunteerism" etc etc etc...

Has Mark Conway come out and said - "I am leaving Club Tyrone because we are paying for players to go on holidays" No he hasn't.....instead he comes out against the Govt (REPEAT THE GOVT) giving grants to ALL county players.....

My view is that if you support the Grants like I do then there is no issue with Student Grants, player holidays, All-Star trips, International Rules, Players going to the US, Managers getting paid etc (In other words everything that is currently and openly going on (apart from Managers getting paid)), however
If your view is that getting a GOVT grant for being a county player removes the ethos of amateurism then you have to be against anyone receving money for playing GAA including students, player holidays, All-Star trips, International Rules, Managers, Players going to the US etc etc....

You can't just say - well its ok for them to get something, and maybe them to get something but hold on - no way are the county players getting something....

the problem with your rationale is that you are not comparing like with like - as I keep pointing out.
I find this blinkered tunnel visioned approach astonishing from the pay for play people.
if this is what the gpa and followers are clinging to, then the whole aspect of 'MILEAGE' must come under scrutiny....why has it not already...because sensible folk have adjudicated that this is COMPENSATION - as is paying refs and managers (albeit way too much currently), compensation also covers the holidays etc...compensation for lost time and we dont whinge about that.
Pay for play, from GAA OR GOV source is pay for play. Its against our ethos, and if it is to be allowed, rule 11 must be altered.
I still cannot beleive that Student grants are being dragged up into this 'argument' - grants AWARDED TO STUDENTS ...non working people
FFS
its not even the same planet, let alone same ballpark

[lynchbhoy]

Rolling eyes don't help an argument.

I can only summise you are unaware of the lengths some unis go to secure students. It's not as innocent as you imagine and it has nothing to do with helping hard-up students. Donal intimated that it was this aspect he was trying to address during his tenure.

so you would prefer to comment on rolling eyes rather than respond to my last points to your post ?

will I be marked out of ten or out of one hundred

just for you 

[lynchbhoy]

...back to the thread title
frank mcguigan was a great player , but a thick oul slabber - who'd listen to him anyhow !

[ONeill]

I still cannot beleive that Student grants are being dragged up into this 'argument' - grants AWARDED TO STUDENTS ...non working people

Everything is being dragged up.

Payments to managers
Payments to students - be it recognised or illicited
Payments to players from journalist bodies
Payments to players in America
Payments to players here
Payments to trainers

You cannot sit back and do nothing/say nothing about this and suddenly shout about these regulated govn grants.

[Zulu]

I still cannot beleive that Student grants are being dragged up into this 'argument' - grants AWARDED TO STUDENTS ...non working people
FFS
its not even the same planet, let alone same ballpark

Just because think so doesn't make it so.

You are AWARDED a grant because you are a STUDENT and a footballer/hurler not because you are an inter county player and most def not because you 'deserve' one because you picked a path that prevented you from working full time, and most certainly NOT because you PLAY for the college/uni.

I didn't get my grant because I was a student, I got it because I was a student playing football. I wasn't eligible for the grant unless I played GAA, you seem to be having difficulty with this. I could have gone to University and not played GAA, which would have meant no grant, instead I went to University and did play GAA which meant I did get the grant. To me it seems clear why I got money put into my hand.
                             Yes, most students can't work full time but we can work during the summer (4 months), during the Christmas (1 month) and on a weekly part time basis. You seem to be arguing that the grants allow players to play GAA who otherwise could not but that is simply not true (as far as I know). The grant money I get is too little to allow me not work but others get a lot more and are promised this if they go to a particular college. In fact a number of colleges are notorious for dropping points to get lads in on courses which they barely need to attend. You paint a very misleading picture of the college scene and if you knew what was going on you wouldn't think that the comparison between the govt. grants and student grants was so ridiculous.

So because I oppose the grants that I should stand up in my club and say that our Under 12 & Under 10 teams should not have been taken away on a day trip paid for by the club back in September?

No of course not, but the point is that lots of people are getting 'rewarded' from GAA coffers through student grants, holidays, holiday vouchers, playing in the US, under the counter payments  etc. so to selectively pick out one payment and talk about this being the end of the GAA is unsustainable IMO.

[spectator]

Wasn't it Sean Mc Cague, as President of the GAA, who declared that amateur GAA players were being discriminated against when they were initially excluded from the origional Gov \ Sports Council grants scheme. And didn't he call for them to be included in the scheme!

Looking at the arguments being presented here, the anti-grants side are basically saying payments \ grants are sort of acceptable when given to everyone except IC players.

I genuinely think the anti-grants folks should re-focus and examine the management role of the GAA leadership in getting us to this point. The anti-grants side don't trust what the leadership has done, even though the leadership were cleared to do so. Imho, it's incorrect to unilaterally attack the players and blame them for instigating all of this. They weren't the ones who built a huge stadium & then went out to exploit the commercial opportunities to the hilt. They were the ones though who were often treated with little or no respect by the committee men.

I understand the need for ppl to have a scapegoat in the form of the GPA, but think it's rimming it a bit to claim Rule 11 is sacrosanct whilst declaring acceptance of the various other payments & grants that go on.

I've a gut feeling that in some quarters it's the emergence of player power which is really bothering many of the objectors to the grants.

Power games within organisations often take strange twists. While the old ways might have been imperfect, the incumbent power brokers - the committee men - could be relied upon to uphold the image of amatuerism, whatever else. That fits the way in which many members wish to see themselves, through the prism of the GAA, I suppose.

The new kids on the block - the players - can they be trusted to maintain amateurism? That's the $64K question.

The anti-grants side have clearly decided they can't be trusted. Didn't lynchboy refer earlier to " ... the Irish mentality to not trust one of their own."... Very pithy observation lynchboy.

A debate is the only way to go at this stage, if anti-grant members are to have their fears assuaged & issues dealt with.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Not trawling through the whole thread here folks, but just a few points, and apologies if I'm treading over well-trodden ground again:

• striking for money (grant) = pay for play, unless someone can erase my understanding of the English language
• pay for play = soul-shift of the organisation
• soul-shift of the organistation = unknown territory, but if other sporting organisations that have undergone a similarly fundamental re-orientation are anything to go by, it 'll be neither pretty nor progressive
• hero though he is of mine, but Frank is in danger of becoming a bitter old anti-GAA man, for previous wrongs, perceived or actual (and there have been a good few actual)
• Low dig from Frank about "those who have a bob or two" are the only siren voices against the GPA grants; or how did he know where I stash my millions?
• it's one thing accepting the inevitable, as with young Coney, but it's a wholly different thing promoting the flight of our brightest stars by acting as a de facto academy for the AFL, which is effectively what the GAA are doing at the minute

[theskull1]

Getting so demotivated watching amateur barristers trying to corner their opposition on charges of hypocrisy and also by coming to the realization that in a generation the GAA will be ruined by all you people who are prepared to use various form of argumentation to support the rights of more and more people within the GAA to get paid for their services.

Whilst many of the anti grant camp may have turned a blind eye to illegal payments, student grants and the rest etc etc (giving the pro camp plenty of ammunition) the pro grant pro/pay manager camp, by not extrapolating their own arguments to a logical conclusion are doing the very same thing. In time everybody will be looking something.

[ONeill]

striking for money (grant) = pay for play, unless someone can erase my understanding of the English language

I cannot see how one = the other. The threat of a strike was crazy, ill-advised and would have had little or no support. Farrell thought this was the best way to put pressure on the govn to get a move-on on their promises. Although it worked, it could have sounded the death knell for the organisation if acted upon. Farrell knew the months of Novemeber and December bought time and made it an empty threat but it put the media focus fiercely in the govn's court. The GPA came out of that episode badly in terms of garnering public support.

However, for that to be your sole premise for describing govn grants as pay-for-play, well then, I'll never understand your concept of he English language. For those who voted in favour, it was on principle and equality

[ONeill]

Don't know if this was posted before from the Western People re the strike:

Time for the GAA to get its head out of the sand
By: James Horan

WITH little happening on the GAA sporting fields there is really only one show in town- The Strike. In the fascinating world of politics, lies and damned statistics, the GPA strike ballot count appears at first glance to give a resounding 95% vote by the players in favour of strike action.

This gives the impression that there is widespread condemnation among inter-county players of their terms and conditions between the GAA and government and that unless the pair get their house sorted, well, the play-ers are downing tools. I am not so sure and as any good opposition TD would do when confronted by such a resounding result, you break down the figures and surprisingly, all may not be as it first seemed. With 1881 GPA members balloted, the actual voter turnout was 71% of membership. Of this 71% there was a 95% vote in favour of strike action. The 95% figure represents 1281 players. This indicates by my calculations that approx 545 (29%) did not vote (probably not interested in strike), 67 (5%) players were against strike action. Add this together and you get a slightly different perspective on where a significant portion of inter-county GAA players stand. A lot of the players, I sense, don't think the strike is a clever option.

When all is said and done, changes are required. Players should not be out of pocket or suffer loss of earnings as a result of playing inter-county football or hurling. The GPA has never asked for 'pay for play'. Their mandate is to provide better conditions for inter-county players who in the cold light of day are taken for mugs by the GAA and its officer brigade.

Yes of course it is a privilege to play for your county, I don't think you would get an inter-county player that would disagree, however, the days of getting the great job when you play for the county are a distant memory. In fact, the opposite may now be the case with employers and companies now getting aggressive in their drive for increased profits and frill. Cutting slack to the inter-county player that has to leave a few hours early a couple of times a week may not be all that appealing an option.

You could argue the toss on this debate forever, but as with any debate it's the facts that are the important issue. In my opinion the GAA and its officers are hypocritical. The GAA, whether we like it or not, is a significant business that deals in vast amounts of cash. The GAA has many commercial wings to its operation and deals with huge sponsorship deals, concert promotions, gigs etc. So there is a major revenue stream before you even get to game gate receipts. Many people are full time employees of the GAA and you have a number of examples of fully paid county board officials and unofficially, many managers. The 5million provided by the government is there ready for distribution. The government stipulated that the GAA must administer the grant system. Where will all this end up? Strikes, players refusing to play, picket lines, reserve teams, end of inter-county? The GAA and government, when it comes to politics, are no green horns: two heavyweights are in the ring with a junior bantamweight (GPA). The strike- poker play that the GPA have thrown into the mix- is fraught with disaster...unless the grants are administered, players will refuse to play. The strike can't, should-n't, and must not happen.

Many times I have stood in dressing rooms looking around at the 'officers' knowing they were getting better mileage and let's face it, better conditions than the players. Players' claims for expenses were often savaged and slashed by lofty county board men who when asked why, invariably replied, "that's just the way it is". Let me tell you how difficult that is to take when you are training everyday, sacrificing family time, losing money, strung out with effort, and you get this type of response. The players at inter-county level are the showpiece of the GAA and they should never be out of pocket. That is all the GPA is asking for, fair treatment. When you think about it, it is a complete joke. The county board boys get better mileage, overnights and god knows what else, while the players are expected to play away. Common sense has to kick in here.

Players should receive sufficient gear, adequate mileage, gym member-ship, meals before and after games/training, training equipment, access to physios/doctors/medical staff, ticket allocations, passes for games, expenses for overnights for away games.

Players need to be compensated for playing for the county. Take a league or championship game in Dublin. Mayo players have to travel up, perhaps take time off work, they have to eat and hydrate on the way up which they would pay for, they may buy newspapers and other miscellaneous items in the shop that they pay for. When staying in the hotel they may go to cinema etc that they would pay for. After the game they may go out for drinks that they pay for etc. This may sound like small stuff but when you multiply this numerous times over league, challenge and championship games, it can be costly for a player to play inter-county. If a player is a student, which a lot of them are, they might not have all that much money. They may need to work on Saturdays to support their college life. If playing county football, you could not have a weekend or part time job and therefore you could be short of money...if you were on a business trip would you not expect your company to cover the basic expenses you incurred as part of that trip? You would not be there if it were not that the company wanted you to travel to this location. The same is true of the inter-county game. Another angle to this debate is that some players can also be self employed. They can incur significant lack of earnings due to missing over-time because of training on Saturdays etc.

Don't fall into the trap that all the players and the GPA want is pay for play; that is just GAA propaganda in an attempt to discredit the genuine claims by inter-county players for reasonable conditions and fair treatment. Judge the debate around whatever you think the players deserve. This pay for play that is banded around is the classic smoke screen.

It is an absolute privilege to play for your county but players cannot be out of pocket as a result. It is not sustainable if this remains the case and eventually we will see talented GAA sportsmen not bothering. Let common sense and fairness prevail...the GPA call off the ridiculous strike threat and the GAA get its head out of the sand and sort out the mess and for once do the right thing by the players.

[lynchbhoy]

Spectator
The anti-grants side have clearly decided they can't be trusted. Didn't lynchboy refer earlier to " ... the Irish mentality to not trust one of their own."... Very pithy observation lynchboy. 

...be it 'pithy' or whatever, the fact remains that within a high percentage of teams throughout the country (and in GAA teams abroad) that I have encountered, there are factions, disagreeing parties and bodies of people that don't like/trust/respect each other let alone value their GAA ability etc etc. I have seen where such parishes and teams can not agree over selection/training/coaching/management etc of players so its worse when the subject of manager/trainer/selectors comes up.
So my point I think is real, and a huge cause for the requirement of external managers to a myriad of teams.
Sad as it may sound, it is real for the majority of teams that I am familiar with, and don't expect the trend exists only in them.
Its human nature and you cant change that.


Oneill
Everything is being dragged up.

Payments to managers
Payments to students - be it recognised or illicited
Payments to players from journalist bodies
Payments to players in America
Payments to players here
Payments to trainers
You cannot sit back and do nothing/say nothing about this and suddenly shout about these regulated govn grants.

.......firstly I thought the gov said they were not going to 'regulate' these grants..that the GAA would end up having to do this (but as various county boards refuse to do so, who actually will? – a voluntary admin person ...cant pay them, as the gpa and pay for play brigade will be up in arms again).
So although granted by Gov, its most def not 'regulated'.


So everything is being dragged up including the non-issue of student grants.
OK, while I think its bizarre, let the gpa and pay for play brigade carry on with this one.
If the baby is to be thrown out with the bathwater, then it would appear that the gpa/pay for play brigade will not be happy until the GAA association beef up the rules to outlaw all such payments (how will this be monitored and who will do it – another 'volunteer' perhaps) – managers, students, players in America, trainers, referees all must from now on be unpaid.
No more player holidays and the 'expenses' structure must be reviewed as is it well known that players receive well over the odds in expenses.
Plus these expenses must be 'claimed' with receipts as is done in the real world.
Yes this would leave players in a worse off state than they currently have – but if the apple cart is upset, what can they expect for their greed.

there is a fine line - understood and accepted by GAA folk over the years, and grants to players crosses that line.
We all know that if this is allowed, then the cuckoo has its egg in the nest and ultimately dessie and the gpa will want pay for play, with the renting out of croker to soccer and rugby to fund the 'wages' to the detriment of our grass roots game - ie having to sack the young GAA coaches around the country and eventually having to sell the GAA family 'silver' to keep up payments until we are broke.
but please carry on and attempt to fix what is not currently broken ...