Frank McGuigan on grants

[theskull1]

You know what O'Neill, I agree with you about there being an element of hypocrisy in this recent rule 11 debate. Everyone "kind of" (but has no proof so...) knows it has been going on for donkey's years and have said nothing because proving it was another thing. But maybe only now all those silent voices  realized what sort of dynamic that this silence has generated and have now decided to make their voices heard now that payment to players has been officially sanctioned in an attempt to underpin the value of the volunteer ethos within the GAA which is now dangerously under threat.

[ONeill]

Fair enough point.

[quidnunc]

Just when you thought people had gone quiet on this issue...

A couple of points spring to mind in relation to O'Neill's sustained offensive -

Are McGuigan's well documented struggles with certain problems while in America, which coincided with his payment for play, not one of the strongest arguments that can be made against such payment?

Also, I think the main controversy in the HE sector has been eligibility, not "pay-for-play". I.E. Are the players all full-time students, rather than, are they receiving scholarships? The provision of illicit scholarships may have affected eligibility issues, but that does not mean that the HE Council was losing that battle.

The biggest problem with O'Neill's argument is the accusation of "hypocrisy" against those who are speaking up on this issue, for not speaking up earlier. Judging from most of what has been said, eg about the payment of managers, it would probably be fair to say that most objectors previously were uncomfortable with illicit payments. But the fact is that ordinary members know their place. It is supposed to be up to the top officials to deal with those issues.

Consider this example. Cocaine is illegal. Cocaine is increasingly prevalent. Lots of people are taking it or selling it. Lots more ordinary people do not like this fact and would want the government, police, whoever, to eradicate the problem. What do these ordinary people do? Do they go around demanding to be quoted in the media, saying "cocaine is bad. Do something about this problem."? Generally no, because it is widely understood that cocaine is illegal/dangerous/wrong and that for these reasons the government and police know their duty and they should be left to carry out their responsibilities.

So consider then the previous illicit payments. Why would the likes of Conway, McAnallan etc go round trying to kick up a stink about illegal payments when they were effectively nobodies in the greater administrative scheme of things? President, Central Council, provincial councils, county boards, Congress - these are the bodies that have real power, and for anyone else to be going on a solo run on such an issue would have looked like an attention seeker. And why bother when it was widely understood that top officials were against these payments anyway?

O'Neill, your tenacity in the argument is admirable, but comes across increasingly as belligerence in the face of the obvious problems that this grant deal is creating for members all over the country.

The more people are thinking it through, the more they are against it.

[stephenite]

I don't particularly buy into the "we're all hypocrites" arguments too easily either but that's really beside the point. Nobody is begrudging the players the grant money, or any monies they may have received elsewhere in the past, they are begrudging the sacrifice of the principle.

I think if Central Council or Brennan came out and said, right - we're having a special congress in 3 months time to deal with this entire issue of amateurism and Rule 11 and every county can have their speak and we'll take a vote then most people would be happy to accept whatever the result of that vote was.

[Hardy]

But his sponsor covered his expenses (as Club Tyrone does for Tyrone county teams). The govn gave him this because he was cycling at the highest level possible for his sport as an amateur and he knew he was entitled to this from the sports council. I must tell him he was actually a pro according to some. For, as you say, Govn grants = pay for play.

You are taking the position, then, that government grants are not pay for play?  What are they then?

I withdraw from any responsibility for adjudicating on the status of Uncle Bert. If I give an answer you don't like, I'm in danger of being called a hypocrite.

[ONeill]

Just when you thought people had gone quiet on this issue...

A couple of points spring to mind in relation to O'Neill's sustained offensive -

Are McGuigan's well documented struggles with certain problems while in America, which coincided with his payment for play, not one of the strongest arguments that can be made against such payment?

Also, I think the main controversy in the HE sector has been eligibility, not "pay-for-play". I.E. Are the players all full-time students, rather than, are they receiving scholarships? The provision of illicit scholarships may have affected eligibility issues, but that does not mean that the HE Council was losing that battle.

The biggest problem with O'Neill's argument is the accusation of "hypocrisy" against those who are speaking up on this issue, for not speaking up earlier. Judging from most of what has been said, eg about the payment of managers, it would probably be fair to say that most objectors previously were uncomfortable with illicit payments. But the fact is that ordinary members know their place. It is supposed to be up to the top officials to deal with those issues.

Consider this example. Cocaine is illegal. Cocaine is increasingly prevalent. Lots of people are taking it or selling it. Lots more ordinary people do not like this fact and would want the government, police, whoever, to eradicate the problem. What do these ordinary people do? Do they go around demanding to be quoted in the media, saying "cocaine is bad. Do something about this problem."? Generally no, because it is widely understood that cocaine is illegal/dangerous/wrong and that for these reasons the government and police know their duty and they should be left to carry out their responsibilities.

So consider then the previous illicit payments. Why would the likes of Conway, McAnallan etc go round trying to kick up a stink about illegal payments when they were effectively nobodies in the greater administrative scheme of things? President, Central Council, provincial councils, county boards, Congress - these are the bodies that have real power, and for anyone else to be going on a solo run on such an issue would have looked like an attention seeker. And why bother when it was widely understood that top officials were against these payments anyway?

O'Neill, your tenacity in the argument is admirable, but comes across increasingly as belligerence in the face of the obvious problems that this grant deal is creating for members all over the country.

The more people are thinking it through, the more they are against it.

Firstly, McGuigan didn't hit the states til 1977. This was payment in 1973 as a 19-year old.

HE council were not losing the battle I suppose, but they definitely not winning it. You just had to attend the College All-Stars awards to see what was going on. I don't want to write any more about that.

In terms of hypocracy, Conway was a major player in the Club Tyrone initiative. He knew full well that some of our county players in 2006 decided not to bother playing club championship in favour of earning extraordinary amounts elsewhere. These were the same players we were looking after by buying into Club Tyrone. Now, I don't have a problem with that, but surely it completely opposed his ideals although in recent months he has focused more on the GPA handling of the issue which is correct. Also, why can the ordinary man make a noise now and not before?

Finally, I actually believe you'll be surprised at the amount of people who share the view that although the process was far from admirable, the grants are acceptable if regulated correctly. A prominent club player told me he has no problem that his fellow club players will be receiving the grant. He was more concerned with how they'd spent it, if you know what I mean. It's a pity the GAA didn't take a greater role in the admin of it.

Anyways, tis getting boring....

[Grantsman]

Well Micko got more than the price of a spare bicycle chain from Laois.  Aye, 'tis getting boing, just pay the lads the few bob that is there for now and we will sort out the rest later.  I think this thing dragging on about the initial payment is going to hamper discussions on the exact payments to players appearing in this years A.I.F's and if these ae not agreed before All-ireland Final Day there could be a strike.  Get on with it, pay the lads the few bob and get over it.

[irunthev]

Without going into the whole debate again, I do know of one individual claiming to be very well paid for his involvement with the Tyrone County team and surely Mark Conway was aware of this in his capacity with the Supporters Club. The reason I know this is that the individual went to great lengths to let me know exactly the sort of money he was making out of the set up. Now either he is telling the truth, which reflects badly on the Tyrone set-up, particularly bearing in mind Pat Darcy and Mark Conway's stands on payments, or this individual is lying, which would mean he is doing damage to the Tyrone set up by spreading false rumours. I feel myself he is telling the truth. So while I fully support Mark Conway in his stance, I also feel that if someone looked too deeply into any club or county where there is objection to payments of any sort being made, it would be found that there have been illegal payments being handed out to individuals for a long long time. Money has been a massive issue in the GAA for too long, esepcially overseas, but probably since Miko took over Kildare in the early 1990s, it has become a massive incentive for many many people. Far too many people involved in high profile GAA would have to find a dictionary to get the definition of volunteering.

[ONeill]

I'm away out to build a snowman.

[Grantsman]

Well without going into the whole debate again the money issue relates to club players as well and down the country there are little clubs that are barely surviving, most have now amalgamated into double barrelled names.  What chance have they got of competeing against the more "professional" clubs with better training methods and bigger membership?  Maybe if their players got equal payments to others these little clubs would survive. Unless the "grassroots" come to terms with what year we are living in they will be left in the grass while the rest of the country moves on.  It won't be long before we see a manager sitting like the rugby boys with a laptop in the dugout.  All we have to figure out is how each club gets equal tilt at any payments being made and all we need to make sure of is that my Jack, when he comes in from work milking cows, gets the same chance as your Joe when he comes in from work at Davy Stockbrokers.

P.S.  I used to be all against the GPA but now I think they are great.

[behind the wire]

right this is my wee summary. please feel free to correct me in any errors in my statements:

PAYMENTS TO PLAYERS  -  WRONG

PAYMENTS TO MANAGERS  - WRONG

PLAYERS RECEIVING MONEY TO PLAY IN AMERICA  -  WRONG


the fact that managers are paid (against the rules) and that it is well known that some players receive money to play in the usa (again against the rules) cannot be used as a means to justify players being paid. what we should be doing as an association is aiming to stamp out all illegal payments to managers and players.

can those posters in favour of the grants scheme and the gpa therefore please stop trying to justify pay for play by using the example of managers being paid etc.

[ONeill]

can those posters in favour of the grants scheme and the gpa therefore please stop trying to justify pay for play by using the example of managers being paid etc.

Can't see where anyone had done that.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

right this is my wee summary. please feel free to correct me in any errors in my statements:

PAYMENTS TO PLAYERS  -  WRONG

PAYMENTS TO MANAGERS  - WRONG

PLAYERS RECEIVING MONEY TO PLAY IN AMERICA  -  WRONG


the fact that managers are paid (against the rules) and that it is well known that some players receive money to play in the usa (again against the rules) cannot be used as a means to justify players being paid. what we should be doing as an association is aiming to stamp out all illegal payments to managers and players.

can those posters in favour of the grants scheme and the gpa therefore please stop trying to justify pay for play by using the example of managers being paid etc.

The people who are behind the grants scheme or pointing out the hypocrisy that exists that says -

We know that Managers/Players etc are getting paid against the rules but we will do absolutely nothing about it, we will not kick up a fuss about it, we will accept that Rule 11 works and that this will have no impact on volunteerism..........However - The Govt gives grants to all county players and suddenly it is a major issue, the GAA won't survive etc......If people receiving money was such a major impact on volunteerism and the death knell of the GAA then why were people not advocating that this be stopped??? Why did Mark Conway not launch a crusade against Tyrone players going to the US to pay for play?


No doubt you also agree with the following?

Payments to students is wrong?
Payment of holidays for players is wrong for All-Ireland wins?
Payments on All-Star tours is wrong?
Payments on International Rules is wrong?
Sponsorship deals are wrong?


The issue of Govt Grants etc had been brought up at Central Council previously so it is not as if this was just pushed through without anyone getting a chance to discuss it.

[lynchbhoy]

Payments to students is wrong?

while it may be some way wrong to pay managers - if under the table payments were somehow stopped - there wouldnt be to many decent mangers on the go.
Apply that to player, the same will not happen .Players will ALWAYS want to play. Money or no money.
Regulate the management payment - or at least draft up acceptable figures.

Why are you stupidly dragging in student grants..these people are unable to work or work full time - so why penalise them ?
Surely we can give a leg up to our kids, get them educated, into better jobs etc so they will have the time to train and play gaelic games and not be fecked from working long hard hours on the building sites as was our traditional job area.
Can people stop trying to ludicrously rationalise the pay for play argument by comparing apples and mountains.


While payment in america is wrong, that country can sustain payment, it has a large economy and if Gaelic games ever took off and appealed to the masses there, THEN GAA over in America could turn professional, and maybe have enough in the bank to professionalise GAA in Ireland.
We do not have the economy to sustain semi pro or professionalism.
Did the rugby fiasco here and in wales pass you pay for play chappies by ?

[/quote]
Payment of holidays for players is wrong for All-Ireland wins?
Payments on All-Star tours is wrong?
Payments on International Rules is wrong?
Sponsorship deals are wrong?
[/quote]
that just sounds petty and silly.

[ONeill]

We do not have the economy to sustain semi pro or professionalism.
Did the rugby fiasco here and in wales pass you pay for play chappies by ?

The GAA has no interest in going down that route. Not a penny of that comes from the GAA or its activities.
This is a govn grant for county sides who meet a current criteria. Govn grants have been handed out for a range of sporting activities for decades. They're still amateur.

2 questions.

Have you seen the criteria for receiving the grant?
Have you received under-the-table payments? If no, would you?