Will you be cheering for NI tonight?

[SammyG]

Could you explain why he would want to go to NI amtches on a regulaer basis then?

No idea. I'm working in Wales at the minute and have been to a few Welsh matches, doesn't make me a Welsh supporter.

I guy like this doesn't help your cause any.

Not sure how somone who is clearly an Engerlund fan, affects NI much either way.

[MW]

I can understand your empathy with the English support as you share the same national anthem as them, and a lot or your supporters double up as England supporters during the big tournaments but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to support a team who have won '2 World Wars & 1 World Cup.'

Any details on this accusation? I know loads of NI supporters and I don't know any that support Engerlund, in fact most actively dislike them and wouldn't support them in a game of tiddlywinks.

Well Sammy, I know 5 people in my village who have both Northern Ireland & England shirts.

I worked with a guy who admitted that he went to the NI v England game at Old Trafford with an England shirt underneath his NI Jersey. When England scored he took off his NI top and celebrated the England goal. He also wore an England jersey into work during the World Cup and went out to watch the games with his mates, who all attend NI games.

I am not tarring you all with the same brush Sammy. Perhaps a lot of you guys that go to WP for every game don't suscribe to this way of doing things but you would be burying your head in the sand to say it doesn't happen within the wider NI 'Fanbase.'

I can honestly say I know no-one like this. And I've been going to NI matches for 18 years, have travelled across Europe supporting NI and am in a NI supporters club. For what it's worth I'm also an Irish League fan and play at junior level.

I know of a few who will 'take on' a home country to follow in finals tournaments if (as in the past 21 years) NI aren't there, but that's it. And I know many more who are either indifferent or gain some amusement from watching the inevitable England self-destruct.

[MW]

Indeed. And when certain England supporters behave in such a way towards those countries' football teams (or Argentina  ), they are being equally petty and small-minded imo.

Well my dislike for England has nothing to do about the "old enemy" as it were. It's more to do with the media and the over hype we have to listen to during the International soccer season, whether that is World Cups or Euro Games.

Also the way the England games take precident over the other Home Nation games. I've noticed during this qualifier that Scottish and NI have been either condemned to regional variations of the main broadcasters, whereas England games are carried on BBC1 across the UK. That to me just smacks of a superiority complex of a supposedly national channel.

Indeed, I think the media hype is a gig reason for many people (including NI fans I know) deriving some amusement from seeing England come a cropper. And I speak as someone with quite a few English mates from my time living there.

On the media thing - Radio One sports news this morning, headlines that England have fallen to 12th place, news item covers this and says Scotland are 14th so will also be 2nd seed for the World Cup. Northern Ireland and Wales? Not a mention Had to rely on fifa.com for that...

[Great Leap Forward]

Could you explain why he would want to go to NI amtches on a regulaer basis then?

No idea. I'm working in Wales at the minute and have been to a few Welsh matches, doesn't make me a Welsh supporter.

I guy like this doesn't help your cause any.

Not sure how somone who is clearly an Engerlund fan, affects NI much either way.

The reason I ask is that he is taking up match tickets at sell-out matches that a genuine supporter should be getting. If I was an NI supporter that would concern me.

[Mentalman]

Reading EG's take on this, I am reminded of the words of Andy Strickland in 90 Minutes when the Republic last played England in soccer, when he referred to the behaviour of "the violent majority" of their fans.

Well that's another reason for disliking English fans. Not just the last time they were over here, breaking up Lansdowne road, but on the prior occassion there was large scale disruption on the way to and from the ground. I was only a whipper snapper then, but one of the lads with me, 15 or so, had bottle battered over his bonce for no more than being a "dirty fenian fu**".

I might accept the disgraceful scenes at Lansdowne might in themselves constitute reasonable grounds for disliking England fans, but why do I suspect that that is hardly the real reason why you and so many Irish people do?

Otherwise, how to explain that if the hooligans at Lansdowne were truly representative of all England fans, why do so many of the latter wish the ROI team well when they are playing? Plus your use of the term "another reason" suggests to me that even had Lansdowne never occurred, you'd still dislike the England team.

In the end, the hooligans who were there that night were not, imo, typical of the ordinary England fans. It seems clear that it being a friendly, with the authorities caught off the hop, extremist elements such as Combat 18 hijacked the game to do their worst. Besides, the Lansdowne game was some years ago - things have moved on since then, thank goodness.

Back up the truck there head and don't try to put words into my mouth. Also I speak only for myself so don't try to mix me in with "so many Irish people". That comment was strictly on their fans behaviour and on what I experienced myself as a kid. Now sorry if I'm human and let it colour my opinion of the England "away" fans in Ireland. I never elaborated on the infamous night in the ground, as I wasn't there, so it would only be second hand information, rather what I'd seen and experienced myself during qualifier matches, not friendlies - disgraceful scenes away from the ground, particularly at the DART station. It leads me to believe that yes indeed, if the Gardai had been more relaxed on previous occasions, like say they would be for Germany or Wales, we would have seen those scenes earlier. Bad Gardaí then, and bad paddies for not expecting violence from football followers.

[lynchbhoy]

maybe some folk dislike the English, but for me I like the english people- in general , every place has some undesirables!

My personal dislike for teams is based on the hype, arrogance - of players, fans and media.

English soccer, plus all australian sides being the two that spring to mind - with norn iron recently getting on my wich for over exposure and a inane incessant media ranting to the public over the soccer team.

the other night ni's bubble burst somewhat, with the players actually looking like the ordinary div 2 calibre they are.
The performance was abysmal - spain not much better, maybe conditions were not great and possibly the pressure got to them also. Still it was an awful spectacle of a match. it made Ireland look half decent by comparison 

You have to commend ni for their games in this euro group - they have done very well and played as a team with a standard far above what you would expect from players of their 'standard'.
It shows the sum of the parts to be exponentially greater than the individuals qualities.
I dont rate either manager they have/had so the kudos has to go directly to the players.

I am a firm believer of teams that play as a unit and play to their strengths - can beat teams of far superior individuals.
NI of the 80's partially proved this, plus the Ireland teams under big Jack are a great example here. Greece winning the last euro championship again showing this is the case and is possible for Ireland and NI if they get their act together.
Although at some stage I believe the teams will be made merge.

[nifan]

When England scored he took off his NI top and celebrated the England goal.

Im surprised he didnt get a slap at that stage.

[Evil Genius]

Lets be honest, no matter how much EG tries to paint the picture that the English fans in general are great and we are petty and small minded for disliking them, there is in fact a huge list of reasons to dislike them, ranging from political grudges, to their fans, to their media etc etc.

I never stated an argument as you have (mis)characterised it. I merely offered the opinion that the average England fan will support the ROI team when they are playing another country, whereas many (most?) ROI fans will support England's opponents in a corresponding situation.

As to why this should be, I feel it is because England fans see the ROI as being a neighbouring team, with whom they share certain cultural, historical and ancestral connections. Any political differences they might have over Ireland is not seen as being relevant in the footballing context.

Whereas, at least some ROI fans allow their political opinions to colour their choice, so that they adopt an "Anyone But England" stance. Of course, this is by no means the only reason why England attracts little support from Irish people. There is also the overbearing arrogance about their own team which characterise the English media, combined with a sometimes patronising attitude and/or ignorant or dismissive attitude towards their "little" neighbours.

I personally deplore people bringing politics into sport unnecessarily, whether it be Irish people using the England football team to carry on irrelevant historical and political grudges, or English people doing the same when playing e.g. Germany or Argentina, or indeed certain of my own fellow NI fans in relation eg to the ROI team.

I also think it unfair to castigate an entire country, or at least its football team, on account of the excesses of its gutter press, especially by people from a country which is importing those self-same excesses to within its own shores, in ever increasing measure.

And to those Irish people who were understandably outraged by the behaviour of English hooligans at the abandoned match, perhaps it's now time to recognise that were peculiar circumstances which caused those events, which are a whole lot less likely to be repeated now, so that it is time to move on from such events and treat England fans as they are now.

So there you go, Your Holiness - let's see you distort that little lot...

[ziggysego]

I hear what you are saying Evil Genius and indeed it does make a lot of sense (I need a cold shower after that).

However, with sports, comes emotions. Emotions can never be regulated and you can't be told what to feel. Basically emotions are raw and primative.

You'll also find a great deal of countries like to see England fail and that is prehaps unfair. I'd say that is because of the hooglians from the 80s and the better part of the 90s. Some would say there's still a sizable minority left.

With Italian now showing the ugly side of soccer, they prehaps will become the disliked country in world soccer and England will become more warmed towards.

[Zapatista]

Evil Genius

National sports and politics are inseperable. Many domestic sports are the same. Do you "deplore" Mary McAleese on AI day or Bertie pictured at games? Do you "deplore" Goverments battling it out to host the Olympics or World cup?


"Any political differences they might have over Ireland is not seen as being relevant in the footballing context"

My point is that any difference is not seen as being relevant in any context. Do you think this is true?

[Puckoon]

Ive an OWCer friend, glentoran supporter. Supports NI to the death in the soccer, to where he berates the English team, loves nothing more than to see them beaten.
When the 6 nation swings around - he supports the English side, and revels in the Irish team getting beaten. I wish he could explain how this works to me, but it all boils down to his ingrained prejudice, and the fact that he works with a bunch of taigs.

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genius

National sports and politics are inseperable.

To a certain extent, yes, but that doesn't mean that they shouldn't be kept separate wherever possible. For example, there is often controversy over flags and anthems etc. I personally feel much of this could be avoided. After all, there are few fiercer rivalries in international sport than that between England and Australia, or India and Pakistan, in cricket. Yet international cricket seems to manage entirely happily without either National Flags or Anthems.

Many domestic sports are the same. Do you "deplore" Mary McAleese on AI day or Bertie pictured at games?

I don't want to turn this into another 100-pager, but I must say that I have a considerable problem with the GAA and its approach to politics. In fact, it is the only sporting body I know which has a political ideology, however little observed in practice, written into its very Constitution. And whilst I understand and accept why historically that may be so, I think the time has long since passed when the GAA should decide whether it wants to keep its political baggage and deter any meaningful participation by 20% of the people of Ireland, or whether it should consign the politics to a place of honour in the Museum at Croke Park, thereby making itself attractive to all of the people of Ireland, of every political persuasion and none. [I would add that such a decision is not for me to make - only the GAA can/should make it. However, I would also add that it is open to me to react equally as I wish to whatever decision is taken, without being directed or dictated to!]

Do you "deplore" Goverments battling it out to host the Olympics or World cup?

I don't object to Governments "battling it out" to host Olympics/WCups per se, provided they are doing so for the right reasons, with resources that they can reasonably spare from more essential and deserving needs. After all somebody has to host these and without Government support this could never be done in the modern manner. But I'm also in favour of Peace, Love and Understanding, and I know we don't always get those, either. Sorry if that's banal, but it's the best I can do.

"Any political differences they might have over Ireland is not seen as being relevant in the footballing context"

My point is that any difference is not seen as being relevant in any context. Do you think this is true?

Sorry, I don't get your point.

[pintsofguinness]

no doubt the gaa will take your lecturing on board eg but you still didn't answer my question on the other thread.

[Zapatista]

The point I made earlier in the tread.

As for the rest of your reply, do you think Dodge Ball wuld be a good national sport?

[Evil Genius]

no doubt the gaa will take your lecturing on board eg

How precisely does "...such a decision is not for me to make, only the GAA can/should make it" constitute a "lecture"? Someone asked me my opinion. I gave it. I don't suppose for one second that anyone in any position of authority in the GAA is even aware of it, never mind the least bit interested in it, but if they should somehow, then quite obviously they may take it or leave it.

Either way, I would hope that they won't react in your childish manner, which is to treat every expression of an opinion which doesn't conform precisely to your own, or which comes from one of "themmuns", as a challenge ("lecture") to you personally, and which therefore must inevitably be devoid of merit, so that you can instead resort to confronting the poster, rather than addressing his post. Pathetic.

but you still didn't answer my question on the other thread.

f**k me, you make it sound like I owe you money or something  

Anyhow, unless it's some other bloody question (in which case you'd better repeat it for me, since I've forgotten it), I did post a reply.

Just 8 posts down (Nov16th. 2.51 pm, #744), it was as follows:

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 15, 2007, 04:45:39 PM
you never answered my question EG.

[Reply]
Sorry, missed it.

I assume, following my assertion that a majority of Irish Nationalists accepted Partition (however reluctantly), that your question was the following:

"What has pro-treaty forces got to do with anything?"

Partition having been accepted by Collins - the accepted Leader of the Irish Nationalists in the War of Independence - there was subsequently a Civil War, won by the Pro-Treaty Forces. Moveover, when the leader of the AntiTreaty forces himself came to power, he de facto accepted Partition.

That is why I mentioned the Pro-Treaty forces to support my assertion that the majority of Nationalists accepted* Partition at the time.

P.S. Whether you agree with my point or not, I am genuinely puzzled that you couldn't at least understand it  


* -  Not the same as liking it