The Old Derry / Londonderry name problem

[Main Street]

There are some strange accounts of history in that document as seen from the eyes of the Company.

This bit is interesting
1720
'Paralysed by the South Sea Bubble catastrophe, the City of London had no resources to spend on its estates in Ulster, so the letting idea seemed the only way out at the time.  Unfortunately, the tenants (who paid a 'fine' and an annual rent) went in for massive asset-stripping, with the result that The Irish Society noted virtually the whole of the county had become denuded of woodlands, emigration by Protestants was reaching epidemic proportions (thereby undoing one of the many aims of the Plantation, namely to settle the disaffected parts of Ulster with persons loyal to the Crown), and small farms were being impoverished by the rapacity of the Companies' tenants.  Meanwhile, as a contemporary observer noted, 'no Papists stirred' from their holdings.  The emigrants (mostly Ulster-Scots) became implacable enemies of British rule, and were one of the most significant factors in the success of the American Revolution.'

[lynchbhoy]

LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.

He doesn't listen if something doesn't suit his blinkered view.  The fall back position is that "our day is coming and we're going to do what we want".

a little bit silly of you I'd think !

while you are a loyalist, I am a realist !

[nifan]

think colmcille precedes that though !

For the city - but for the county?

[Roger]

think colmcille precedes that though !

For the city - but for the county?

Neither imo. 

[lynchbhoy]

think colmcille precedes that though !

For the city - but for the county?

no authority on this (as the coleraine thing is new to me, or I just didnt see this on the board before) but it seems that there was no copperfastened name for the county, other than the historic referral to the county as colmcilles county/county of colmcille then as the census was starting to show - 'Derry' being bandied about
coleraine at a guess would come somewhere in between, but theres obv some reading I have to do first.

[nifan]

Coleraine was a slightly smaller county.
Some additional land was added when it became the new fangled co Londonderry.

Have never heard of it as county colmcille before - thoight coleraine was the first since the county system was introduced int he area, but i could be wrong. (A quick look seems to imply the county system here was introduced in the area in 1584/5, and that coleraine was the name at this point)

[Rossfan]

LB - im surprised youve never heard of it, it has been mentioned on this board several times.

He doesn't listen if something doesn't suit his blinkered view.  ".

Pot Kettle and Black 

[saffron sam2]

We had a quiz in Geography class every so often when I was at school, the winning team got no homework the next day or something.  The teacher asked in which county is Coleraine (can't remember the actual question) and a guy put his hand up and answered Londonderry.  His team got docked 5 points.

But wasn't his answer correct?  I think that there was never a County Derry in terms of the modern county structure - since it came into place it has been called Londonderry.  I may be completely wrong on that.

On the schools thing - that's a disgrace, and the headmaster and board of governors should be rightly embarrassed.

Interestingingly enough (I think), I was looking through the 1911 census and there was no mention of Londonderry on it and this is people filling in there own forms in predominantly protestestant areas of Derry.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Church_Walls/

If you click on the census forms for any of the names (I just chose a street at random) they all put county as Derry.  It seems to be a more modern thing that it has started to be refereed to as Londonderry by some people.

Good spot Maiden!

Interestingingly enough (I think), I was looking through the 1911 census and there was no mention of Londonderry on it and this is people filling in there own forms in predominantly protestestant areas of Derry.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Coleraine/Church_Walls/

If you click on the census forms for any of the names (I just chose a street at random) they all put county as Derry.  It seems to be a more modern thing that it has started to be refereed to as Londonderry by some people.

Interesting indeed - and I note some forefathers of mine would be included ont eh list of referring to it as derry.

However the use of derry is often seen as "shorthand" for many, while seeing the "correct" name as Londonderry.

Aye, the three of you are some craic.  You should have commented when the point was first raised.

A few points.

The number of people who claimed to have the ability to read and write Irish and English. Were they all Shinners?

How the use of the terms Derry and Roman Catholic seem to have had none of the current baggage attached to them.

The elegant script used when forms were being completed as Gaelige.

The peelers didn't complete their full names, using only initials instead. And they were all Catholics from what would soon become the Free State.

My great-grandmother marrying (at 19) a 44 year old who couldn't read or write.

Very few examples of people shacking up together - they dont seem to know the word for "Partner" as a relationship.

I believe the term was "Domestic Servant"

Do try to keep up. Told youse all about the McCartan / Tally linkup eight days before it was announced.

More people should read what I post.

[the green man]

Have never heard of it as county colmcille before

neither had I. I think its commonly known that the new county was originally called Co Coleraine, then changed to Londonderry. We, however came from Loughinsholin, which took in south derry and east tyrone. Probably why the south and north of todays Co. Derry can never get on in GAA terms

[nifan]

Have never heard of it as county colmcille before

neither had I. I think its commonly known that the new county was originally called Co Coleraine, then changed to Londonderry.

Cant find any reference to either "colmcilles county" or "count of colmcille" anywhere.
Think LB will need to check where he got this from.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

think colmcille precedes that though !

For the city - but for the county?

Neither imo.

In your opinion, in your opinion FFS! Not like a loyalist to let an opinion get in the way of a llittle historical fact eh?

Doire Colmcille long predates, by some significant centuries, the first footfall of a Planter on this isle. Check out history some time, uncomfortable for you, but enlightening no doubt.

And regarding the county -- it was part of Tír Eoghain before the bloody English carved that up too, opening the gates to multitudes of inbreds 

[Roger]

think colmcille precedes that though !

For the city - but for the county?

Neither imo.

In your opinion, in your opinion FFS! Not like a loyalist to let an opinion get in the way of a llittle historical fact eh?

Doire Colmcille long predates, by some significant centuries, the first footfall of a Planter on this isle. Check out history some time, uncomfortable for you, but enlightening no doubt.

And regarding the county -- it was part of Tír Eoghain before the bloody English carved that up too, opening the gates to multitudes of inbreds 

Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry.  Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county. 

[armaghniac]

Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry.  Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.

Yeah, Right. If Londonderry didn't have anything to do with an existing Derry why didn't they just call it New London then?

[Roger]

Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry.  Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.

Yeah, Right. If Londonderry didn't have anything to do with an existing Derry why didn't they just call it New London then?

Pretty poor point.  In any case Oak Grove is not uncommon in Ireland to be attached to a name.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Leaving aside your manners, from what I can make out Londonderry was built in a different location from Doire Colmcille and was built from new and named Londonderry.  Doire Colmcille had also been previously destroyed. Doire Colmcille or Colmcille County is neither the current city nor the county.

From what do you make out what you make out, i.e., which reputable sources?

And apologies for my 'manners' --  perhaps I'm over-sensitised to loyalist versions of non-history.

There never was a Colmcille County, but there most certainly was a Doire Colmcille on the site of the current city of Derry, roughly. And I'm not wrong either when I assert that the whole area of the now County Derry came under the territory of Eoghan Ó Néill, i.e., Tír Eoghain, before the Saxons imposed their divisions of rule.