new order in Ulster

[From the Bunker]

Look lads the best team in Ulster are the Ulster Champions - Tyrone. Monaghan beat nobody this year. Huffed and Puffed against the top sides, played better and lost. nuff said. They are coming but will find next year alot tougher as they will not be hiding in the long grass. Armagh have to be respected and have risen their stock over the last couple of years. As for Donegal and Derry, prize choakers, Have not won an Ulster since '93/92. Tyrone will be the top team in Ulster again next year.

[Elias]

Instead of debating as to the pecking order within the province, I think we we need to ask ourselves why we have failed to supply an AI semi finalist for the second year running. We Ulster commontators like to think that our counties compete in the one of the hardest provincial championships and yet it's 2005 since an Ulster county made it to the last four (A year when we had two!)

[southderryman]

If Tyrone or Armagh went into either of this weekend's big football games with a fully fit squad, as Derry and Monaghan had, they would have beaten Dublin and Kerry.
The big two, when fully fit, will still be the teams to beat, and have the mental strength that none of the rest have in Ulster.
The rest will occasionally do well, flatter to decieve and waste their chances on the big stage, that's what us small fish do 

a fully fit squad?? catch yourself on ffs!! ok we mightn't have had as many injuries as tyrone or armagh but we had 3 very crucial injuries. paul cartin out for 8 months, kevin mc guckin clearly not match fit, and paul murphy not fit either (in my opinion the reason we lost was murphy's half time departure, his vision and point taking in the second half would have swung that game)

Your forgetting mcloy playing the last 2 games with a broken finger, Barry McGoldrick broken finger, Michael McGoldrick hamstring (only you couldnt tell), Joe Diver hip for first half of season always playing catchup.
The injury excuse is pure crap....a team is only as strong as the panel. Its utter nonsense to say if we had all our players fit we'd be the best.
As for Armagh and Tyrone having mental strength...I think you will see over the next season or two just how fickle mental strength is. When a team wins a lot of games they are touted as having good mental strength. With every defeat, however, this diminsishes. The goal for Armagh and Tyrone over the past two year has been to win sam. By not doing this and by puttin in some very poor performances that mental strength will be eroding away. Conversely look at Monaghan and Derry this year. But could have won against hte Dubs and Kerry. That's going to improve both these teams.
Remember, it wasnt that long ago when Armagh or Tyrone rarely won a match and they were touted as a "one man team" or one that "didnt have the mental strength to compete". It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this could return!

i didnt say if we'd all our players available we'd be the best. my point was that exiled gael said tyrone or armagh with a fully fit squad would have beaten dublin or kerry, i said we would have beaten dublin had all our men been fit.

Look lads the best team in Ulster are the Ulster Champions - Tyrone. Monaghan beat nobody this year. Huffed and Puffed against the top sides, played better and lost. nuff said. They are coming but will find next year alot tougher as they will not be hiding in the long grass. Armagh have to be respected and have risen their stock over the last couple of years. As for Donegal and Derry, prize choakers, Have not won an Ulster since '93/92. Tyrone will be the top team in Ulster again next year.

derry won ulster in 98 smarthole

[From the Bunker]

Last year Armagh as Ulster Champions got the short straw in meeting Kerry in the Quarters. If they had met any other team they would have made the semi's. Really the Ulster thing of the past 7/8 years has been just Armagh and Tyrone. Ulster is to broad a term for it. Cavan, Antrim, Monaghan, Down, have been nobodies and Fermanagh, Derry, Donegal have huffed and Puffed to no real effect. 2 out 9, just over 20% of teams in the province does not entitle for it to be called Ulster dominance! if thats the case then Munster football has been very stong because of Kerrys achievements! Not Making the last four means nothing as you can be unfortunate in who you draw in earlier rounds. It's all about who is AI champion!

[ONeill]

Instead of debating as to the pecking order within the province, I think we we need to ask ourselves why we have failed to supply an AI semi finalist for the second year running. We Ulster commontators like to think that our counties compete in the one of the hardest provincial championships and yet it's 2005 since an Ulster county made it to the last four (A year when we had two!)

There was only a kick of a ball in each game in the quarters involving Ulster sides. Sure Leinster hasn't had a finalist since 2001. Mayo's the only Connaught side to reach a semi final since 2001. All swings and roundabouts.

[cavanmaniac]

Instead of debating as to the pecking order within the province, I think we we need to ask ourselves why we have failed to supply an AI semi finalist for the second year running. We Ulster commontators like to think that our counties compete in the one of the hardest provincial championships and yet it's 2005 since an Ulster county made it to the last four (A year when we had two!)

The best team in Ulster is Tyrone. They hadn't their key men fit and that's it. They'd have beaten Kerry on the basis of the Kingdom's barely good enough efforts against Monaghan but if me auntie had balls she'd be me uncle and all that.

Tyrone have another Sam in them if they can pull all the injuries together. Armagh are a different proposition and although likely to figure at the business end again, it's hard to see them winning out again having to find quality replacements for Bellew and McGeeney and McGrane if they step down.

Monaghan are a serious team now too and deserve to be in the same bracket as Tyrone and Armagh for next year's reckoning. Derry are still a class forward or two short for me and lack authority within the province, and the rest of the teams are just making up the numbers.

[Main Street]

Injured players of course have an effect but
a counties strength is not just with the first team but with the replacements as well.
Kerry demonstrated that point quite emphatically on Sunday.

Tyrone won the Ulster title on merit.
After that, Monaghan and Derry improved their position and Tyrone didn't

All 3 have a bit of work to do. Next season should be interesting.

[oakleaf stateside]

well u have to say tyrone r the best team in ulster they have the cup to prove it. But i think derry and monaghan r not far away. i think derry will b ulster champs next year if they can hold this team together

[stew]

People seem to think Armagh are done as a force in Ulster and I dont understand why. We had key injuries this year that hurt, we were missing Clarke, Mallon and Bellew and that proved a step too far but we also carried mcconville whose back injuries have left him a shadow of his former self and we failed to put our best available players on the field in the two championship games we played.

We are not too far removed from our AI U21 win,the talent is in the county to retool and come back strong next year, we just need to give the likes of Dyas and Vernon a chance to succeed by playing them extensively in the League.

Much more was made of Tyrones injuries which is strange because our three starters that were out injured are as as important to us as tyrones players  were to them.

One last thing. Dooher should never have played the last day, he was a passenger with none of his usual energy, he was carried and that didnt help tyrone's cause.  

[oakleaf stateside]

u have a point stew but i think it will take armagh about 2 years to build a team not only to contend for ulster but 2 win an A/I they have a few good u21s up and coming

[orangeman]

The order of teams is determined solely by the position they end up in over a long period of time - Derry and Monaghan are not in the same league as Armagh and Tyrone - so as yet there is no new order.

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

The injury excuse is pure crap....a team is only as strong as the panel. Its utter nonsense to say if we had all our players fit we'd be the best.
As for Armagh and Tyrone having mental strength...I think you will see over the next season or two just how fickle mental strength is. When a team wins a lot of games they are touted as having good mental strength. With every defeat, however, this diminsishes. The goal for Armagh and Tyrone over the past two year has been to win sam. By not doing this and by puttin in some very poor performances that mental strength will be eroding away. Conversely look at Monaghan and Derry this year. But could have won against hte Dubs and Kerry. That's going to improve both these teams.
Remember, it wasnt that long ago when Armagh or Tyrone rarely won a match and they were touted as a "one man team" or one that "didnt have the mental strength to compete". It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this could return!

Its not utter nonsense to argue that if a team had its best players fit it would be be up with the best, Tyrone won Ulster and were a couple of points away from the AI semi without their main playmaker, scoretaker, and with their captain clearly injured. With those lads fit Tyrone would be a different team, thats a fact. They werent though and thats football, Tyrone werent the best team this summer and have to accept that. Natural though that Tyrone fans will lament the loss of the men who would have a made big difference, certainly not "pure crap".

Lopsided argument on your behalf also to claim Tyrone and Armagh will have lost belief due to defeats in big games whereas Derry and Monaghan have become the big two in Ulster by losing All Ireland quarter finals Both teams did really well this summer and made strides forward but anybody who thinks Tyrone and Armagh are finished is deluding themselves. Roll on 2008, Ulster should be a really interesting and competive championship.

[tbrick18]

The injury excuse is pure crap....a team is only as strong as the panel. Its utter nonsense to say if we had all our players fit we'd be the best.
As for Armagh and Tyrone having mental strength...I think you will see over the next season or two just how fickle mental strength is. When a team wins a lot of games they are touted as having good mental strength. With every defeat, however, this diminsishes. The goal for Armagh and Tyrone over the past two year has been to win sam. By not doing this and by puttin in some very poor performances that mental strength will be eroding away. Conversely look at Monaghan and Derry this year. But could have won against hte Dubs and Kerry. That's going to improve both these teams.
Remember, it wasnt that long ago when Armagh or Tyrone rarely won a match and they were touted as a "one man team" or one that "didnt have the mental strength to compete". It's not beyond the realms of possibility that this could return!

Its not utter nonsense to argue that if a team had its best players fit it would be be up with the best, Tyrone won Ulster and were a couple of points away from the AI semi without their main playmaker, scoretaker, and with their captain clearly injured. With those lads fit Tyrone would be a different team, thats a fact. They werent though and thats football, Tyrone werent the best team this summer and have to accept that. Natural though that Tyrone fans will lament the loss of the men who would have a made big difference, certainly not "pure crap".

Lopsided argument on your behalf also to claim Tyrone and Armagh will have lost belief due to defeats in big games whereas Derry and Monaghan have become the big two in Ulster by losing All Ireland quarter finals Both teams did really well this summer and made strides forward but anybody who thinks Tyrone and Armagh are finished is deluding themselves. Roll on 2008, Ulster should be a really interesting and competive championship.

I think you need to read my post again. Where did I say that tyrone and armagh are finished? Or where did i say that derry and monaghan are the big two?
What I did say is that both armagh and tyrone failed to do what they set out to do and that this will erode their mental strength and the longer that goes on the worse that will get. This could have the long term effect of reverting to ways of old.
I also said that derry and monaghan would be coming out of this year happy that they made steps forward and will go into next year full of confidence and beleif that they can take anyone.

Now as for the injured player thing....its purely a "what if" scenario. What if O'Neill was fit? What if we'd got the penalty? What if what if....
You can only judge a team by what is available on the panel and by results. Saying Tyrone would be a different team with everyone fit....sure derry could say the same. So could Monaghan. So it is nonsense making this argument as the fact is had all players been fit on all sides there is still no guarantee the outcome would be any different as any team can beat any other on any given day. You might as well be 20 points away from an AI semi as 2 cause the end result is the same.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Now as for the injured player thing....its purely a "what if" scenario. What if O'Neill was fit? What if we'd got the penalty? What if what if....
You can only judge a team by what is available on the panel and by results. Saying Tyrone would be a different team with everyone fit....sure derry could say the same. So could Monaghan. So it is nonsense making this argument as the fact is had all players been fit on all sides there is still no guarantee the outcome would be any different as any team can beat any other on any given day. You might as well be 20 points away from an AI semi as 2 cause the end result is the same.

Given that S O'N is a former and recent player of the year, and Brian Mc Guigan is acknowledged as perhaps the best play maker in the country (and both recent Celtic Cross winners to boot) it's a little more than an idle 'what-if' surely? Who else of that calibre has any county with real aspirations been similarly missing this year?

[nrico2006]

Quote from Tbrick18:

What I did say is that both armagh and tyrone failed to do what they set out to do and that this will erode their mental strength and the longer that goes on the worse that will get

So if Tyrone and Armagh failed to achieve their objectives this year, the same can be said of Derry and Monaghan.  Surely they would have been aiming for the Anglo Celt, but didn't achieve that.

You can only judge a team by what is available on the panel and by results. Saying Tyrone would be a different team with everyone fit....sure derry could say the same. So could Monaghan

What?  Who have Derry or Monaghan missing that is equal to Steven O'Neill (2005 Player of the Year), Brian McGuigan (Top No.11 in the Country) and Brian Dooher (The Hoover - say no more)?