Call for a United Iberia

[his holiness nb]

P.S. Don't you mean lowest order?

no the highest order, as in you have reached the peak of cuntery 

[Mentalman]

Don't know much about the Portugezzers, but were they brought to the Iberian peninsula from a nearby neighbour, and granted the confiscated lands previously occupied by local clans of another nationality, culture and religion? I thought the state was established by some sort of internecine feud?

No, I don't think modern day Portugese did arrive there in the manner you describe. Though it is just possible that any of their ancestors who were Iberian Celts will have travelled to an island to the North West, seized control of the land from the previous occupants and assimilated them into their own "nationality", culture and religion...

Imperialist Bastards those Celts, eh? 

In any event, we're in the age of concensus here. Would there be concensus on this on the Iberian peninsula, or even a desire for it among even a sizeable minority of the population? Does anyone want it, except for Mr. Saramago? It's really apples and oranges comparing it to our own situation. In any event he uses the Basque, Catalonian and Galicians as examples to back his arguement, which is just BS, as all have sizeable minorities, in some cases majorities, who feel a lot on antipithy to the Castillion Madrid based government. Actually I would of thought a further fracture of Iberia more likely than a "reunification" no-one wants. The article might just as well have been titled "Disillusioned Crank Seeks Somnething Nobody Wants" and "Needs to regenerate his flagging career" as the sub heading.

Wouldn't disagree with too much of that MM.

It's just that my having posted the original article pretty much without comment*, it was subsequent posters who "took the bait" and turned it from a United Iberia thread into a United Ireland one.


* - OK, there was a sly wee prelude, but it's hard to resist sometimes...

Well your initial post, as you say, was hardly uncommented, it did have the inviatation, the bait, to compare and contrast situations.

Looking only at the article from an Iberian point of view he is talking absolute sloblocks. A majority of Basques, as far as we can ascertain, aspire to at least "home rule", a sizeable minority to independence, an even smaller group wish this by any means. The Catalonian's treat the rest of Spain with quite a lot of distain, and have their own separatist movements. Galicians I'm not so knowledgable about, but have their own autonomy for over 20 years. To think that Portugal, where there is no desire to return to the "home country", having their own distinct language, culture and history, would be joining something that appears to be heading for at best a federalist future is unlikely.

How does that relate to the Irish situation as we know it? There seems to be quite a lot of glaring differences.

No comment on subjugation vs assimilation? What we can gather from history, and genetic testing, appears to tell us that the native population assimilated the Celts, not the other way around, and took the best of what they offered for themselves. Also, that points to the other major difference of course - written, printed, recorded history. There are heaps of conflicts in central europe for instance, long forgotten, as they happened long long before the printing press, or the surviving widely known written history. Maybe ours will be forgotten some day too, hopefully.

[Evil Genius]

Looking only at the article from an Iberian point of view he is talking absolute sloblocks. A majority of Basques, as far as we can ascertain, aspire to at least "home rule", a sizeable minority to independence, an even smaller group wish this by any means. The Catalonian's treat the rest of Spain with quite a lot of distain, and have their own separatist movements. Galicians I'm not so knowledgable about, but have their own autonomy for over 20 years. To think that Portugal, where there is no desire to return to the "home country", having their own distinct language, culture and history, would be joining something that appears to be heading for at best a federalist future is unlikely.

How does that relate to the Irish situation as we know it? There seems to be quite a lot of glaring differences.

No comment on subjugation vs assimilation? What we can gather from history, and genetic testing, appears to tell us that the native population assimilated the Celts, not the other way around, and took the best of what they offered for themselves. Also, that points to the other major difference of course - written, printed, recorded history. There are heaps of conflicts in central europe for instance, long forgotten, as they happened long long before the printing press, or the surviving widely known written history. Maybe ours will be forgotten some day too, hopefully.

Of course I knew the thread would get back to a United Ireland debate, whether I dangled the bait or not, but I posted the article since I thought it interesting in a number of ways.

Meanwhile, back at "El Rancho", I can see how the Iberian Question could be applied to the Irish Question in a number of ways, according to ones own particular prejudices.

A "UK Nationalist" could take the author's case to claim that the ROI should be absorbed back into a wider UK covering the whole of the archipelago.

Or an Irish Nationalist could follow the Iberian logic to claim that the whole island of Ireland should be united.

Alternatively, an Irish Unionist like myself gets two shots at this, on the basis that NI has the right to be separate from the greater geographical entity (the Republic), just as Portugal has from Spain.
Or, even if you consider the island to be a complete entity in the same way as Spain (i.e. forget about Portugal), any part of that should have the right to secede, just like the Basques or Catalans etc should have (provided they have a democratic majority, that is).

As for assimilation vs subjugation, it always amuses me when "true Gaels" complain about the Saxon Invader etc, or point to their own "native purity" etc. After all, they are harking back to an ancestry which at some stage themselves almost certainly invaded Ireland, most likely by force, just like the hated Brits.

Moreover, the genetically "Celtic" ancestry to which they point is very possibly nothing of the sort i.e. as you say, the invader was actually assimilated by the invaded.

All of which is interesting in its own right, but just about the worst possible "solution" for applying to the problems of today.

Remember 1916? Or 1690? Er, no thanks - at least, not outside the history books, or the museum.

[his holiness nb]

You talk more and more shite every day.
A skilled debater no doubt, but pure and utter shite 

[BallyhaiseMan]

if Britain want to join up with the Rest of the Irish Isles, and be ruled by Dublin, they are more than welcome.. 

[Fishead_Sam]

if Britain want to join up with the Rest of the Irish Isles, and be ruled by Dublin, they are more than welcome.. 

As I said before The United Republic of Great Ireland & Little Britian, with its Capital in Dublin, the Irish President (male female & any religion) as head of State as the only correct way to Rule the Irish Isles.

[Mentalman]

A "UK Nationalist" could take the author's case to claim that the ROI should be absorbed back into a wider UK covering the whole of the archipelago.

Or an Irish Nationalist could follow the Iberian logic to claim that the whole island of Ireland should be united.

Alternatively, an Irish Unionist like myself gets two shots at this, on the basis that NI has the right to be separate from the greater geographical entity (the Republic), just as Portugal has from Spain.
Or, even if you consider the island to be a complete entity in the same way as Spain (i.e. forget about Portugal), any part of that should have the right to secede, just like the Basques or Catalans etc should have (provided they have a democratic majority, that is).

As for assimilation vs subjugation, it always amuses me when "true Gaels" complain about the Saxon Invader etc, or point to their own "native purity" etc. After all, they are harking back to an ancestry which at some stage themselves almost certainly invaded Ireland, most likely by force, just like the hated Brits.

Moreover, the genetically "Celtic" ancestry to which they point is very possibly nothing of the sort i.e. as you say, the invader was actually assimilated by the invaded.

All of which is interesting in its own right, but just about the worst possible "solution" for applying to the problems of today.

Remember 1916? Or 1690? Er, no thanks - at least, not outside the history books, or the museum.

Ya see that is where we differ. To me there are no "Spanish Nationalists" looking for absorb Portugal back into greater Spain. If there are, they constitute crackpots, not even a mallable minority.

Similarly there are no "Portugese Nationalists" thinking they have claim on Spain either.

That's why I think it a bad example.

But yes, the regions mentioned within Spain are closer to the bone, but still not quite the same as the situation on this island. Now if, for example, 40+ % of the population of Galicia felt deprived of some sort of Portuguese heritage, while the majority preferred Spanish identity, then you would be spot on. As it is the majority of the region don't want to be either Portuguese or Spanish, assimilated by either, they prefer the third identity, which is interesting in itself. Again another reason why their situation is not similar to ours here.

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

A "UK Nationalist" could take the author's case to claim that the ROI should be absorbed back into a wider UK covering the whole of the archipelago.

Moreover, the genetically "Celtic" ancestry to which they point is very possibly nothing of the sort i.e. as you say, the invader was actually assimilated by the invaded.

Sorry, what exactly is a UK Nationalist? I certainly haven't heard of any political party which campaigns to 're-unite' part of Ireland with Britain.

Secondly, surely a major difference with the most recent orchestrated invasion of Ireland (well, that is, the one prior to the 21st century) is that they (God bless them) did not assimilate with the local population - if they had, our Scottish (and even possibly English) brothers here would have felt as Irish as the rest of us and maybe we mightn't have arrived at the fix that we're in.

PS I'm sure you explained one time before what an Irish Unionist is but it escapes me now.

[Evil Genius]

PS I'm sure you explained one time before what an Irish Unionist is but it escapes me now.

An "Irish Unionist" is an Irishman who believes in the Union of Ireland with England, Scotland and Wales in a United Kingdom, funnily enough.

Regrettably (imo), a majority of Irish people in one part of the island, known as "Irish Nationalists", decided by 1921 that they wished to secede from the Union.

However, a majority of Irish people in the other part of the island ("Irish Unionists") preferred to remain. Having been born and brought up in this latter part, I consider myself fortunate to be able to maintain my Irish Unionist heritage.

But if it really confuses you, you may call me a "Northern Irish Unionist*", if you prefer.


* - Assuming you are from Armagh, would it be easier if I referred to you as a "Northern Irish Nationalist"?   

[Fiodoir Ard Mhacha]

Assuming you are from Armagh, would it be easier if I referred to you as a "Northern Irish Nationalist"? 

No, not really.

I'm Irish. That's it.


PS As you know, although I appreciate you don't like dwelling in the past, a dubiously created 'majority' of people in a part of this island in 1921 may have wished to remain in some form of union with Britain much to the exclusion of a sizeable minority whose voice, opinions, democratic right and aspirations were....well you know the rest. That's what I regret.

[lynchbhoy]

[Meanwhile, back at "El Rancho", I can see how the Iberian Question could be applied to the Irish Question in a number of ways, according to ones own particular prejudices.

A "UK Nationalist" could take the author's case to claim that the ROI should be absorbed back into a wider UK covering the whole of the archipelago.

nice try
but no matter how you try to equate it
Ireland is an island and as such , with no geographical links to England/uk, will always be Ireland.
Politically this will have to be unified at some stage (as the English have demonstrated democratically in every such poll for the past number of decades that they do not wish NI to remain ar part of their constitution - no I dont have any links...try asking any cockney, Yorkshire man or English west country farmer)

The problem all lies in the finances
Obv the courtesy of waiting until the majority population swings over too is the kick off point., but
the ways to finance the re-patriation and increasing industry in NI, making it a hell of a lot more of an attractive proposition to the southerners who see NI as a bit of a ghetto to be honest - which is another problem in the re-unification process.

But it will all happen at some stage.
Would happen a lot sooner if the poll was extended to all UK citizens - asking if NI was to remain part of the 'union' !  

[Fishead_Sam]

PS I'm sure you explained one time before what an Irish Unionist is but it escapes me now.

An "Irish Unionist" is an Irishman who believes in the Union of Ireland with England, Scotland and Wales in a United Kingdom, funnily enough.

Regrettably (imo), a majority of Irish people in one part of the island, known as "Irish Nationalists", decided by 1921 that they wished to secede from the Union.

However, a majority of Irish people in the other part of the island ("Irish Unionists") preferred to remain. Having been born and brought up in this latter part, I consider myself fortunate to be able to maintain my Irish Unionist heritage.

But if it really confuses you, you may call me a "Northern Irish Unionist*", if you prefer.


* - Assuming you are from Armagh, would it be easier if I referred to you as a "Northern Irish Nationalist"?   

Evil Genius a majority of people in all four corners of Ireland thought it was a good idea to leave British Rule in 1798, actually most of the leaders where from what is no known as your tradition, & many of the Yeomanry that tried to hold of the Irish & later Franco-Irish Armies where from what later became the Nationalist tradition.

Evil Genuis would a
Federal Republic of Ireland with each of Irelands Province having its own devolved Govt.
With the Irish President head of State, but the Queen of England having Special relations Status with Ireland, perhaps even a dual Head-of-State be acceptable.
The Nation to have two National Holidays the 17'th of March & 12'th of July.
I'm not acking you to say yes, but would it even be a runner for discussion?

[GweylTah]

Perhaps separatist Irish nationalists on the Board can tell us why the Basque cause, to which many of that ilk have some sympathy, should be permitted to 'self-determination' that would result in both Spain and France being partitioned?

By the same token, surely they can't be supportive of Scotland and England separating, on the basis that that would mean an island being partitioned - we couldn't have that now, could we?

[his holiness nb]

Given that you wholeheartedly approve of our Island being partitioned I didnt think you would have a problem with that 

[GweylTah]

Given that you wholeheartedly approve of our Island being partitioned I didnt think you would have a problem with that 

The partition of Ireland is simply a  political and geographical inevitability and minifestation of the difference between peoples.  The same thing happened many times the world over over previous centuries. Look at Yugoslavia, mass population shifts to boot, and all within the past 15 years.

Anyway, whatever the aspirations in the future mists of time, the attitude of society / establishment in the South and of Unionists in the North is that we have a settlement in NI and within Ireland, an Agreed Ireland if you like.  Anachronists, like some nationalist warriors on this board, unrepresentative of Ireland these days, need to catch-up and get with the programme.