Man Utd Thread:

[nrico2006]

Anyone got footage of the Vidic incident? It didn't merit a mention at the time on the rolling commentaries on the BBC or the Guardian but suddenly it seems to have become Exhibit A that the ref was bent.

Not necessarily.
But if people, trolls or genuine posters, are claiming that lack of malicious intent and going for the ball are meaningless factors and that the outcome is everything (as they are for the Nani incident), then the keeper who came out and clocked Vidic on the head should have been judged by the same criteria as Nani.

In the real world, I would consider neither to be red card offences, but there appears to be some inconsistency.

Well said.  The point is being made regarding Vidic to demonstrate that in every game there are clashes and the law applied by referees is usually accompanied by common sense where they make a judgement on whether or not a player made contact by accident or not.  The keeper should not have been sent off or yellow carded and neither should Nani.  People are aggrieved because until that point when it was 11 against 11 United were confortable and the sending off possibly has altered the outcome of the game.  Madrid could have won anyway with 11, but the disadvantage United were put at more than likely contributed to their exit. 

[deiseach]

Anyone got footage of the Vidic incident? It didn't merit a mention at the time on the rolling commentaries on the BBC or the Guardian but suddenly it seems to have become Exhibit A that the ref was bent.

Not necessarily.
But if people, trolls or genuine posters, are claiming that lack of malicious intent and going for the ball are meaningless factors and that the outcome is everything (as they are for the Nani incident), then the keeper who came out and clocked Vidic on the head should have been judged by the same criteria as Nani.

In the real world, I would consider neither to be red card offences, but there appears to be some inconsistency.

Well, I don't know where I'd get the idea that anyone thought he was "dodgy"

[camanchero]

It wasn't just the red card. Sure their keeper almost decapitated Vidic. Should have been a penalty and a red card. Also a clear penalty near the end on Young I think by Ramos who should have been sent off in both games. If Rafael's was a penalty then United should have had at least 2 more penalties - you can't give penalties for the ball hitting a guys arm.

It shouldn't have been a red card in a million years. The reaction of the Madrid players and management was enough to tell you that. Absolutely gutted cos United had their measure. Ferguson and his team had the tactics right, they never looked like scoring. Often in the past United have been tactically inept but not here.

Roy Keane is a legend but he is simply wrong about the red card incident.

would agree with most of that- esp about ramos.
man u could easily have been given two penalties after the red card incident.

I only got to see the game right as Nani was sent off and thought at the time the card was harsh.However after looking again today I believe the ref was right.
Was nani trying to say that he was going to try and control the ball with that jump??

To say that his eyes were on the ball at all times so he couldnt have known about the madrid player closing in is rubbish.
I know a chap who managed to keep his eye on a high dropping ball but using his peripheral vision was able to see a player coming in like the madrid lad last night and timed it to kick the guy in the chest as the ball dropped at the same height (the victim was guilty of a few dirty tackles in that game). Only got a yellow card and the ref apologised to him as he gave it as he said it was dangerous play even though he believed it wasnt intentional. Ref said if he could have given red.

I think last night nani realised that the madrid player was steaming up from defence and woul dhave taken the ball past nani and put in a cross into the stretched man u defence- so nani thought quickly and made sure the play was stopped there by fouling the madrid player.
I could be wrong- only Nani himself knows.

defo mourinho will be the man u manager with fergie as football director in the next season or two. his comments were so blatant last night !

man u did well though to get that far with a squad that are not that exp by CL standards. a shining example of good players playing as a team and adding up to way more than the sum of their parts.

[deiseach]

I think last night nani realised that the madrid player was steaming up from defence and woul dhave taken the ball past nani and put in a cross into the stretched man u defence- so nani thought quickly and made sure the play was stopped there by fouling the madrid player.
I could be wrong- only Nani himself knows.

Good point. If he thought he had loads of space, why didn't he wait for the ball to come to him? Still think it was a harsh decision though.

[J70]

Anyone got footage of the Vidic incident? It didn't merit a mention at the time on the rolling commentaries on the BBC or the Guardian but suddenly it seems to have become Exhibit A that the ref was bent.

Not necessarily.
But if people, trolls or genuine posters, are claiming that lack of malicious intent and going for the ball are meaningless factors and that the outcome is everything (as they are for the Nani incident), then the keeper who came out and clocked Vidic on the head should have been judged by the same criteria as Nani.

In the real world, I would consider neither to be red card offences, but there appears to be some inconsistency.

I wouldn't say intent is meaningless, but outcome definitely means by far the most, otherwise mistimed tackles would never be punished. How is a referee supposed to, in the fast fury of a game and getting only one real-time look at an incident (not a close-up, slowed down, tv replay from all angles), parse intent?

The keeper is an interesting one. They always seem to get away with this, mostly because they usually get something on the ball, but even if they go through a mass of bodies to get a ball, they're never called. That seems to be the culture of the game; one rule for keepers, one for everyone else.

[Billys Boots]

I think last night nani realised that the madrid player was steaming up from defence and woul dhave taken the ball past nani and put in a cross into the stretched man u defence- so nani thought quickly and made sure the play was stopped there by fouling the madrid player.
I could be wrong- only Nani himself knows.

Good point. If he thought he had loads of space, why didn't he wait for the ball to come to him? Still think it was a harsh decision though.

At the time I thought that Evra's rugby tackle was worse - perhaps the ref considered Nani's to be a second act of cynicism. 

[Bingo]

Its getting comical in here. Keeper sent off  Ye can't possibly be serious.

[gallsman]

Watch the video again - after Nani fails to withdraw his foot in time (reasonable), he then connects with Arbeloa (reasonable) but then his leg extends kicking out - driving into Arbeloa's side. He didn't mean to clatter him initially but he made sure that he got as much out of him as he could once he had no alternative.

[brokencrossbar1]

When you win say nothing, when you lose say less.  Get over yourselves, there were a few debatable decisions but over 180 minutes it should not fall down to whether or not Nani should or should not have been sent off.  It is excuse-itis and fails to see that United simply were beaten by a technically more superior team over the 2 legs.  United are the best in England but this failure to be pressed by other teams, has to a point, taken a small bit of an edge off their game.  The sending off could have gone either way but it was not the only moment over the 2 games and generally these things balance themselves out, take a leaf out of the book of other great champions and suck it up!

[ONeill]

I'm not sure about the premise that Nani wasn't aware of the Madrid player.

He didn't have to bring it down like that - he didn't have to bring it down at all at that part of the field. Nani could've let the ball bounce and go after it but was probably aware that a Madrid player will likely be challenging so he took the more difficult and skilful approach.

A wee bit of common sense should've prevailed though.

Anyway, about 8 or 9 years ago Van Persie got sent off for the exact same thing although he made contact with an FC Thun player's head. Can't find a video of it though.

Van Persie also got the line v Barca for attempting a shot on goal one second after the ref blew the whistle for offside amongst 95'000 screaming Catalonians. Ye'd nearly think these refs don't like English sides. Don't get Norf started.

[rodney trotter]

Ronaldo praising the utd fans
http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/8543253/ronaldo-praises-fans

[Applesisapples]

It wasn't just the red card. Sure their keeper almost decapitated Vidic. Should have been a penalty and a red card. Also a clear penalty near the end on Young I think by Ramos who should have been sent off in both games. If Rafael's was a penalty then United should have had at least 2 more penalties - you can't give penalties for the ball hitting a guys arm.

It shouldn't have been a red card in a million years. The reaction of the Madrid players and management was enough to tell you that. Absolutely gutted cos United had their measure. Ferguson and his team had the tactics right, they never looked like scoring. Often in the past United have been tactically inept but not here.

Roy Keane is a legend but he is simply wrong about the red card incident.

Ahh FFS I assume you are from Down such is the red and black coloured tinting to this post.

[Carmen Stateside]

Been reading back over all the posts since the game. Unreal 
For me old Whiskey nose got it wrong.  You don't leave your best player on the bench against Madrid.  Stan's son actually played well but Van Persie was brutal.  These are the games  you expect the big money signings to stand up in.  Unfortunately (snigger) for United there big signing didn't and the only other world class player was on the bench! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLURFCnfSiI&sns=em

[Bingo]

Watch the video again - after Nani fails to withdraw his foot in time (reasonable), he then connects with Arbeloa (reasonable) but then his leg extends kicking out - driving into Arbeloa's side. He didn't mean to clatter him initially but he made sure that he got as much out of him as he could once he had no alternative.

Of Course Nani knew someone was coming, look at the replay, as the ball is cleared he looks up the field and then goes back to the ball, if he felt there was no one coming he had little reason to jump for it, he'd have been under it by time it hit the ground otherwise.

He tried to break the play, was either man or ball. A harsh sending off but these are the risks you take and the calls that have to be made. Graham Poll has said it was a red and two premiership refs he has spoken to, agreed.

[Captain Obvious]

Thought this was interesting enough. 50/50 decisions both of them IMO, another day a ref could have reversed the decisions. Good to have a read of the actual laws.



FIFA Law 12: "Reckless" means that the player has acted with complete disregard of the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent. A player who plays in a reckless manner shall be cautioned.

This seems to sum up fairly well the two incidents above. Both Diego López and Nani were trying to win the ball but both of them went in without considering the consequences for their opponent. Nani caught Alvaro Arbeloa with his studs, Diego López punched Nemanja Vidic in the head with both fists.
Nani got sent off and López wasn't even booked

FIFA Law 12: "Using excessive force" means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent. A player who uses excessive force shall be sent off.
Whilst both Nani and López were in danger of injuring an opponent, neither of them used excessive force.

FIFA Law 12: If a player plays in a dangerous manner in a "normal" challenge, the referee should not take any disciplinary action. If the action is made with obvious risk of injury the referee should caution the player. If a player denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity in a dangerous manner the referee should send off the player.

Again, the Laws of the game would suggest that at worst, Nani should have been booked.

According to those rules both challenges were reckless. Mourinho had his doubts if Real Madrid could win the match at 11 v 11 to be honest it's hard to know the game was evenly poised that could have went either way.