Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball

[Eamonnca1]

Just seeing this thread now and haven't read beyond the first page but...

In basketball you're not allowed to pass the ball back across the halfway line once you've crossed it. Seems to work well and is easily enforced.

[trailer]

Holding the ball is a skill. Go and watch any club team trying to do. What happens is some lad not comfortable on the ball gets it. He panics and either kicks it away or is dispossessed. Weirdly, I'll admit, I kind of admire Dublin and how comfortable everyone of them are on the ball and how they don't panic. I don't think there's another county team that can do it. Monaghan couldn't do it against Fermanagh this year.

Now realistic changes that would make a huge difference are, 13 a side, 80 min games and only 3 or 4 subs. That would create tired legs and the game would really open up in the last 20 mins. Should cut the size of inter county panels and save CB's money and should also level the playing field across the game.

Not a shot clock or rule limiting hand passing in sight.

[TabClear]

Have only read through a couple of pages of this so apologies if I am repeating something.  I was thinking a netball-esque approach with zones might encourage less packed defences. For example,Fulle Forward/Full Back line are not allowed outside of the 45, HB/HF cannot pass the opposing 45 etc. I can see obvious issues with certain situations e.g  quick counter attacks, balls breaking over a line etc etc but you might be able to get round that with certain refinements. It would mean that there is more space in the inside forward line and a greater incentive to deliver the ball quickly into it.

EDIT: I personally dont have an issue with the current rules, unfortunately I just think that one team is so far ahead of the others at the minute I think people are understandable tryig to level the playing field. I dont necessarily think it would be the answer but it might be an interesting experiment.

[trileacman]

Passing the ball around ad nasuem is a huge problem for the game, especially to run down the clock, so I'd have to disagree with you there hardstation.

I understand that all law changes carry the guarantee of unintended consequences but for me a shot clock would probably be the best method of opening up the game. I know you say that the defensive team only have to defend for 1 minute and be rewarded with a free but when they are given possession they become the offensive team and now have to work a score in 60 seconds (or 30, 45 seconds, whichever seems most natural). So by playing defensive they string themselves up offensively. For me the most likely outcome is that managers realise possession isn't paramount but creating good scoring opportunities and having top class finishers to take them is. Hence they'd revert to more traditional styles to ensure enough quality attackers are on the pitch and high enough up to create and score points/goals.

The no back-pass behind half-way is a dogshit suggestion as it simply moves the blanket exclusion zone from the 45m to the halfway line. Teams currently look to pressure players and swallow them up around the D because there they can have them completely surrounded by defenders. A no- back pass rule would simply allow teams to use the halfway line as a impenetrable line of defenders, simply wait for a lad to carry the ball over halfway and smother his forward options, driving him back to a place where he has no options but to foul the ball. There's a reason players recycle possession when an attack ends up in a corner, they've run out of road and are surrounded on 2 sides by the endline and on one side by the defending team. I can't believe that cutting off the offensive teams last option is seen as a incentive for attacking play.

Lastly and most importantly you're all missing the key point by saying Donegal should have just pushed up, went man-to-man and won the ball back off Dublin. That isn't possible unless you send a man up to man-mark Cluxton. Going man to man would mean you'd have 2 midfielders between the 45's and 6 forwards trying to dispossess 6 backs and a goal-keeper. With the ball skill and fitness of today's top footballers, 7 players will keep the ball off 6 players in an area 90m by 45m endlessly, once the initial attempts to dispossess fail your inside forwards tire and the hope of a turnover is lost.

Donegal had too options the last day, hope Dublin attacked and they got a turnover or it went wide or truly go man to man by pushing a defender up on Cluxton, leaving Dublin a free forward up top. Donegal's options were basically do what they were doing or concede a score.

Agreed with the doubters that a ref could keep a score clock by himself whilst still completing all his other duties so that likely downs it as a suggestion for congress unfortunately. I just don't see any other workable suggestions out there that don't fundamentally alter the game as we know it.

Does anyone here honestly believe the game hasn't decreased as a spectacle in the last 10 years? I thought we'd reached the nadir last year as Tyrone and Donegal were much more offensive in the league this year and a supposed golden generation of Kerry forwards were on the cusp of their senior careers. However the round of super 8 games seen the team with the better blanket defence progress and those who could hold possession for the longest. Since Dublin took the lessons of '14 and started playing Jimmyball they've been unstoppable and it looks set to continue for a long time.

I'm not sure you've disagreed with me at all. I haven't discussed the shot clock. Blue Island wants the opposite of a shot clock. A good tackle clock which would encourage teams to hold on to the ball. You agree entirely with me about wobbler's suggestion. Although your suggestion that pushing up would need to have someone marking the goalkeeper is a bit off IMO.

No-one is  going to push up and mark the keeper is my point. It will never happen. So in truth once a top 5 team decide to play keep ball, 9 times out of 10 they'll do it for as long as they please due to numerical advantage. Saying "push up and win it back" is the same tired ould bullshit like "throw the shackles off, have a go, kick all your points from distance". Few people honestly appreciate the suffocating, depressing presence of blanket defences. Its the most complete, game altering tactic ever devised in the GAA history, a notable achievement in itself but it's just gone too far. I thought the game would evolve out of this period but now I'm not so sure. More teams are playing blanket defences and keep ball tactics and are all at the top table. Those that refuse to or haven't the managers to reach them it are descending into a mire, proud football counties like down, Armagh, cork, meath and Kildare are being left behind.

[tippabu]

I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it

[thewobbler]

I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it

You'll never hear me disagree with any of that.

But doesn't mean I want to watch it. And if me, a "proper" GAA man is being turned away, then those who are less inclined towards the game have already bolted.

It's in everyone's interests for the rules to be adapted to minimise the opportunity for the anti-spectacle that is ball-keeping.

Donwe have to wait for four-figure championship crowds before everyone agrees? Or can we move forward on it now?

[Jinxy]

Just seeing this thread now and haven't read beyond the first page but...

In basketball you're not allowed to pass the ball back across the halfway line once you've crossed it. Seems to work well and is easily enforced.

Hard to think of a rule that would be easier to enforce.

[sid waddell]

I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.

People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

[trileacman]

I havent read any of this thread but 100% fair dues to dublin and i dont say that easily......dublin or any other team who puts themselves in a position to be able run the clock down like this then why not. Yes it looks awful but how many donegal players were in their own half when all this is going on? When youve a decent lead and have the opportunity to play a low risk tactic to see it out then why not? Play the ball around, force the opposition to push out and up on you, create space in the oppositions half and get over laps and attack cleverly. Yeah it looks terrible but the opposition as much as anyone contribute to it

You'll never hear me disagree with any of that.

But doesn't mean I want to watch it. And if me, a "proper" GAA man is being turned away, then those who are less inclined towards the game have already bolted.

It's in everyone's interests for the rules to be adapted to minimise the opportunity for the anti-spectacle that is ball-keeping.

Donwe have to wait for four-figure championship crowds before everyone agrees? Or can we move forward on it now?

You need to come up with a rule change that is going to make it a better spectacle though. Minimising the opportunity for ball keeping while optimising the effectiveness of blanket defending does not do that. You are dealing with one problem but making another problem (for me, the fundamental problem) worse.

Any ideas on what that rule change could be though?

[Jinxy]

I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.

People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

[rosnarun]

the reason change is so difficult in the GAA is easily seen on these pages . 50 poster 50 different obvious ideas each masser than the next.
any solution has to be easily enforced  or we will end up with another Black card situation where the referee forgets about it for 90% and then gives on for something innocuous

[shark]

I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.

People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

I would think that too if I was from Meath.

A couple of weekends ago Eir Sport (I think) showed a re-run of the 1992 Munster Final. I had nostalgic memories of this game, as was on holidays in Clare at the time, and remember the celebrations well. I had never seen the game since, but it was absolutely chronic. The skill level was abysmal, with the notable exception of Maurice Fitzgerald. The only tactic for both sides was to kick the ball as long and as hard as they could in the general direction of their opponents goals.

We have different game now, for a number of reasons. It is not perfect, but it has been much worse in the past.

[tippabu]

the reason change is so difficult in the GAA is easily seen on these pages . 50 poster 50 different obvious ideas each masser than the next.
any solution has to be easily enforced  or we will end up with another Black card situation where the referee forgets about it for 90% and then gives on for something innocuous

I dont think there is a solution or at least shouldnt be....its up the the team on the receiving end to push up, try and get a turnover and pressure them into a mistake. The likes of a dublin are more than able to kill you when you push up though and tag on extra scores. Its a very legitimate tactic they are using and is horrible to watch but is it any worse than a team 5/6 points down and allowing the team playing the ball around by keeping 13/14 players in their own half?

Im not in favour of any rules to change this....if you brought in a hand pass limit of say 5 it would kill the game for me....you have teams making progress up the pitch get to their handpass limit and turn and kick the ball back 30 yards and start over if there was no pass on, then you combat that with not kicking it back into your own half which will give a huge advantage to teams who throw 15 behind the ball and give no space, combat that by a team must keep a certain amount of players in oppositions half that ruins alot of the competitive edge of the likes of a carlow or fermangh. Leave it as it is

[BennyHarp]

I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.

People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

...and more manly.

[Jinxy]

I think football is in a very bad place at the moment.

People are confusing a lack of competitiveness (and is Gaelic football any worse in that regard than it has ever been?) with the health of the sport and how it is being played.

Gaelic football now is being played to a higher standard than ever before. That is unarguable. The skills are better, the fitness is better, competitive games are generally more exciting than they have ever been. This doesn't fit the populist narrative, but it's a fact.

The great games of this decade are the greatest games of all-time.

Dublin v Kerry 2013 and 2016.
Dublin v Mayo 2015 and 2017.
Mayo v Kerry 2014 x 2 and 2017 x 2.
Dublin v Donegal 2014.

Look into what's happening in the 2018 championship. There have been brilliant games all over the place.

Tyrone v Monaghan - brilliant.
Donegal played superb football in their four games in Ulster. They played plenty of it again against Dublin.

Even in Leinster, there were some cracking games - Laois v Wexford, Offaly v Wicklow, wins fro Carlow over Kildare and Longford over Meath.

The qualifiers have been full to the brim with classics.
Meath v Tyrone
Derry v Kildare
Tipperary v Mayo
Kildare v Mayo
Offaly v Clare
Wexford v Waterford
Armagh v Clare
Roscommon v Armagh

There were other very solid, competitive games:
Cavan v Down
Longford v Kildare
Monaghan v Laois
Cavan v Tyrone
Sligo v Armagh
Offaly v Antrim

High scores are being racked up all over the place.

Galway v Kerry on Sunday was derided. Yet that game finished 1-13 to 1-10. That used to be considered reasonably high scoring, you know. Meath v Dublin 1997, for instance was regarded at the time as a brilliant, thrilling game. Yet it finished with the exact same scoreline, 1-13 to 1-10.

There is no problem with the sport as it is played or with the rules.

People's problems are with bad coaches and bad tactics, and they will always exist and have always existed.

There's an incredible hysteria throughout Gaelic football pundits and followers of looking at the past through rose tinted glasses here.

The standard of Gaelic football 25 years ago, or even 15 years ago, was, compared to now, shit.

It's really not, on both counts.
The period from the mid-nineties to the mid-noughties was the pinnacle of gaelic football as a sport and a spectacle.
Massively competitive, including at provincial level, with the ideal balance of skill, fitness and physicality.

I would think that too if I was from Meath.

A couple of weekends ago Eir Sport (I think) showed a re-run of the 1992 Munster Final. I had nostalgic memories of this game, as was on holidays in Clare at the time, and remember the celebrations well. I had never seen the game since, but it was absolutely chronic. The skill level was abysmal, with the notable exception of Maurice Fitzgerald. The only tactic for both sides was to kick the ball as long and as hard as they could in the general direction of their opponents goals.

We have different game now, for a number of reasons. It is not perfect, but it has been much worse in the past.

I said mid-nineties to mid-noughties, so Galway, Kerry and Tyrone were as (or more) successful in that era.