Las Vegas Shooting

[easytiger95]

Trump refused to mention guns.  Just evil. Huckabee said now is not the time. The US has multiple converging crises.

Now never appears to be the right time. I don't think there ever would be a right time. As an outsider looking in I really can't understand the mentality that anyone can have an issue with trying to have some kind of sensible control over guns. America's worst enemy is itself. There will never be a way to eradicate gun crime or one humans desire to kill another by whatever means but surely it should be made as difficult as possible for people to do this.

11000 people so far this year.
I think American kids are 80 or 90 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds than European kids. That is abhorrent.

You do realise that many of the murders in the US occur in inner cities, where the likes of you and I (or our kids)wouldn't dare to go day or night?  The murder rate in a normal middle class town would be higher than in Ireland but not by a multiple of 80 or 90.   Theres a hell of a lot less crime where I live in that States than the town I grew up in Ireland

Oh that is ok then. As long as it is just happening there and where the likes of you or I don't have to worry about it.

Who ever said that...it's tragic wherever it happens. 

He made a claim that a child in the States is 80 or 90 times more likely to die from a gunshot than a kid in Europe. Im simply pointing out that because many murders occur in very specific areas, outside of those areas, the gun murder rates would not be disimilar to what you'd find in similar size towns in Ireland. They would be hgher, but not by a multiple of 80 or 90

If it is tragic wherever it happens, then why are you saying it doesn't happen near you? Murder rates are not calculated on different enclaves. So, unless you're making another point...why are you making a point of the locales?

[whitey]

Trump refused to mention guns.  Just evil. Huckabee said now is not the time. The US has multiple converging crises.

Now never appears to be the right time. I don't think there ever would be a right time. As an outsider looking in I really can't understand the mentality that anyone can have an issue with trying to have some kind of sensible control over guns. America's worst enemy is itself. There will never be a way to eradicate gun crime or one humans desire to kill another by whatever means but surely it should be made as difficult as possible for people to do this.

11000 people so far this year.
I think American kids are 80 or 90 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds than European kids. That is abhorrent.

You do realise that many of the murders in the US occur in inner cities, where the likes of you and I (or our kids)wouldn't dare to go day or night?  The murder rate in a normal middle class town would be higher than in Ireland but not by a multiple of 80 or 90.   Theres a hell of a lot less crime where I live in that States than the town I grew up in Ireland

Oh that is ok then. As long as it is just happening there and where the likes of you or I don't have to worry about it.

Who ever said that...it's tragic wherever it happens. 

He made a claim that a child in the States is 80 or 90 times more likely to die from a gunshot than a kid in Europe. Im simply pointing out that because many murders occur in very specific areas, outside of those areas, the gun murder rates would not be disimilar to what you'd find in similar size towns in Ireland. They would be hgher, but not by a multiple of 80 or 90

If it is tragic wherever it happens, then why are you saying it doesn't happen near you? Murder rates are not calculated on different enclaves. So, unless you're making another point...why are you making a point of the locales?

All official reported murder statistics rates are in fact broken down by race and demographic


https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf

Read the bullets under "highlights"on the cover page

[seafoid]

Trump refused to mention guns.  Just evil. Huckabee said now is not the time. The US has multiple converging crises.

Now never appears to be the right time. I don't think there ever would be a right time. As an outsider looking in I really can't understand the mentality that anyone can have an issue with trying to have some kind of sensible control over guns. America's worst enemy is itself. There will never be a way to eradicate gun crime or one humans desire to kill another by whatever means but surely it should be made as difficult as possible for people to do this.

11000 people so far this year.
I think American kids are 80 or 90 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds than European kids. That is abhorrent.

You do realise that many of the murders in the US occur in inner cities, where the likes of you and I (or our kids)wouldn't dare to go day or night?  The murder rate in a normal middle class town would be higher than in Ireland but not by a multiple of 80 or 90.   Theres a hell of a lot less crime where I live in that States than the town I grew up in Ireland

Oh that is ok then. As long as it is just happening there and where the likes of you or I don't have to worry about it.

Who ever said that...it's tragic wherever it happens. 

He made a claim that a child in the States is 80 or 90 times more likely to die from a gunshot than a kid in Europe. Im simply pointing out that because many murders occur in very specific areas, outside of those areas, the gun murder rates would not be disimilar to what you'd find in similar size towns in Ireland. They would be hgher, but not by a multiple of 80 or 90

If it is tragic wherever it happens, then why are you saying it doesn't happen near you? Murder rates are not calculated on different enclaves. So, unless you're making another point...why are you making a point of the locales?

All official reported murder statistics rates are in fact broken down by race and demographic


https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf

Read the bullets under "highlights"on the cover page

Whites are catching up with minorities. Most of the 2.3 million opioid addicts are white.

[doodaa]

Things have to get to a state of chaos in the US before there is change. Slavery resulted in civil war Jim Crow ended in riots across the country.  Plutocracy ended in negative ream interest rates and WW2.

I can't see this changing anytime soon.
Pretty much all of New Orleans had their guns taken from them after katrina. Which was only possible in those circumstances of martial law. There's no way that could happen in a city without a crisis. If the cops tried to do it they'd end up with a Waco in every city.

The horse has bolted. They are armed to the teeth and are staying that way.
These weapons are no good in Africa or other restless places as they are expensive and hard to maintain. There has to be a market for them especially as the military are constantly upgrading. No point in storing them or destroying them when there's is a market there.

Whilst it would be impossible to recall the guns it is possible to restrict access to the ammunition.
Now I realise there is an awful lot of ammunition stored up but eventually it has to dry up.

The Chris Rock 100dollar bullet sketch springs to mind.....

[easytiger95]

Trump refused to mention guns.  Just evil. Huckabee said now is not the time. The US has multiple converging crises.

Now never appears to be the right time. I don't think there ever would be a right time. As an outsider looking in I really can't understand the mentality that anyone can have an issue with trying to have some kind of sensible control over guns. America's worst enemy is itself. There will never be a way to eradicate gun crime or one humans desire to kill another by whatever means but surely it should be made as difficult as possible for people to do this.

11000 people so far this year.
I think American kids are 80 or 90 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds than European kids. That is abhorrent.

You do realise that many of the murders in the US occur in inner cities, where the likes of you and I (or our kids)wouldn't dare to go day or night?  The murder rate in a normal middle class town would be higher than in Ireland but not by a multiple of 80 or 90.   Theres a hell of a lot less crime where I live in that States than the town I grew up in Ireland

Oh that is ok then. As long as it is just happening there and where the likes of you or I don't have to worry about it.

Who ever said that...it's tragic wherever it happens. 

He made a claim that a child in the States is 80 or 90 times more likely to die from a gunshot than a kid in Europe. Im simply pointing out that because many murders occur in very specific areas, outside of those areas, the gun murder rates would not be disimilar to what you'd find in similar size towns in Ireland. They would be hgher, but not by a multiple of 80 or 90

If it is tragic wherever it happens, then why are you saying it doesn't happen near you? Murder rates are not calculated on different enclaves. So, unless you're making another point...why are you making a point of the locales?

All official reported murder statistics rates are in fact broken down by race and demographic


https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf

Read the bullets under "highlights"on the cover page

I wasn't talking about race - I mentioned enclaves and locales.

So it seems you are talking about race?

I really could do with some clarity here Whitey.

A white man fires into a crowd of predominantly white people, and somebody makes a factual point about the murder rate by firearm in America being many times the rate in most other Western democracies.

And then you say, the murder rate in places where "the likes of you and I" wouldn't dare to walk is far higher than where you live?

So what?

What is the relevance of you making that point?

I'll give you some options

a. As a white person you are acknowledging that in areas of socio-economic deprivation the murder and crime rates are higher as a result of that deprivation and the easy availability of guns - if that is what you are trying to say you should really make it clearer, but I can easily get on board with it.

b. the murder rate is higher in areas where non-whites live and it doesn't effect white people like "you or I" - which, if not given any context could be easily construed as racism - especially since the Las Vegas shooting which started this thread was committed by a white person on a mainly white crowd.

Whichever option you choose, the basic fact is, that if a person dies in Compton or the Cape from an indiscriminate gunshot, both are tragedies, both were humans with basic human dignity, and both should be treated the same. Which, in my opinion, is with a call for gun control. And if those laws have more effect in areas of deprivation than on your own, relatively privileged area, at least you'll have the satisfaction that your support for that law has saved a life somewhere.

So could you clear this up Whitey, because you're forcing me into serious moral gymnastics here to avoid pointing out what seems like the obvious with your statements?

[whitey]

I was responding to a pretty crazy statistic....read the thread.

That thread had stemmed from another statement about the "average American"  and gun ownership. I live in MA and approx 85% of adults DO NOT own a gun.

The averages are completely skewed by the extremes amd wengave amlotnof extremes in this country. The averages are not the experience of middle America. If you think they are, thats your perogative!

Do you think the DOJ break down the murder stats by race and size of city for the good of their health or do you think they release them in this format because statistics without context are meaningless?

[heganboy]

Yours are

[The Gs Man]

Seems to be a lot of people questioning the accuracy of events e.g. how could a 64 year old man be able to carry and conceal so many weapons, get them up to the 32nd floor of a hotel, hide them from room service / cleaners, set up cameras, then shot himself before he could be questioned etc. etc.

Have also saw suggestions that firing came from the 4th floor as well as the 32nd.

So, what's the thoughts on that?  Tin foil hat brigade or something more sinister?

[haranguerer]

Ah ffs. What do you think??

[J70]

Seems to be a lot of people questioning the accuracy of events e.g. how could a 64 year old man be able to carry and conceal so many weapons, get them up to the 32nd floor of a hotel, hide them from room service / cleaners, set up cameras, then shot himself before he could be questioned etc. etc.

Have also saw suggestions that firing came from the 4th floor as well as the 32nd.

So, what's the thoughts on that?  Tin foil hat brigade or something more sinister?

Maybe he used a forklift to carry all the guns up. 

Or maybe, given that he was there three or four days, he took them up a few at a time. In and out of the place with cases and bags.

Like every other guest in the place!

I've stayed in hotels for stretches where I've had the "do not disturb" sign up for a few days. That means the staff don't come in unless I ask them. And if they do come in, are they really going to raise eyebrows about a few suitcases sitting around the place?

And cameras?? Seriously?? Is rigging up a few wireless cameras to a laptop high tech stuff?

As for the fourth floor "shooter" - is there any evidence? Broken windows? It's hardly unusual for all kinds of stories to take root in the panic and confusion.

Finally, mass murderer death by suicide at the point of capture is almost cliched at this point, it's so common.

Basically, some people just don't want to accept, for whatever reason, that an aging white guy did this.

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Seems to be a lot of people questioning the accuracy of events e.g. how could a 64 year old man be able to carry and conceal so many weapons, get them up to the 32nd floor of a hotel, hide them from room service / cleaners, set up cameras, then shot himself before he could be questioned etc. etc.

Have also saw suggestions that firing came from the 4th floor as well as the 32nd.

So, what's the thoughts on that?  Tin foil hat brigade or something more sinister?

Stop reading InfoWars.com

[stew]

Trump refused to mention guns.  Just evil. Huckabee said now is not the time. The US has multiple converging crises.

Now never appears to be the right time. I don't think there ever would be a right time. As an outsider looking in I really can't understand the mentality that anyone can have an issue with trying to have some kind of sensible control over guns. America's worst enemy is itself. There will never be a way to eradicate gun crime or one humans desire to kill another by whatever means but surely it should be made as difficult as possible for people to do this.

11000 people so far this year.
I think American kids are 80 or 90 times more likely to die of gunshot wounds than European kids. That is abhorrent.

You do realise that many of the murders in the US occur in inner cities, where the likes of you and I (or our kids)wouldn't dare to go day or night?  The murder rate in a normal middle class town would be higher than in Ireland but not by a multiple of 80 or 90.   Theres a hell of a lot less crime where I live in that States than the town I grew up in Ireland

Oh that is ok then. As long as it is just happening there and where the likes of you or I don't have to worry about it.

Who ever said that...it's tragic wherever it happens. 

He made a claim that a child in the States is 80 or 90 times more likely to die from a gunshot than a kid in Europe. Im simply pointing out that because many murders occur in very specific areas, outside of those areas, the gun murder rates would not be disimilar to what you'd find in similar size towns in Ireland. They would be hgher, but not by a multiple of 80 or 90

If it is tragic wherever it happens, then why are you saying it doesn't happen near you? Murder rates are not calculated on different enclaves. So, unless you're making another point...why are you making a point of the locales?

All official reported murder statistics rates are in fact broken down by race and demographic


https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/hus11.pdf

Read the bullets under "highlights"on the cover page

I wasn't talking about race - I mentioned enclaves and locales.

So it seems you are talking about race?

I really could do with some clarity here Whitey.

A white man fires into a crowd of predominantly white people, and somebody makes a factual point about the murder rate by firearm in America being many times the rate in most other Western democracies.

And then you say, the murder rate in places where "the likes of you and I" wouldn't dare to walk is far higher than where you live?

So what?

What is the relevance of you making that point?

I'll give you some options

a. As a white person you are acknowledging that in areas of socio-economic deprivation the murder and crime rates are higher as a result of that deprivation and the easy availability of guns - if that is what you are trying to say you should really make it clearer, but I can easily get on board with it.

b. the murder rate is higher in areas where non-whites live and it doesn't effect white people like "you or I" - which, if not given any context could be easily construed as racism - especially since the Las Vegas shooting which started this thread was committed by a white person on a mainly white crowd.

Whichever option you choose, the basic fact is, that if a person dies in Compton or the Cape from an indiscriminate gunshot, both are tragedies, both were humans with basic human dignity, and both should be treated the same. Which, in my opinion, is with a call for gun control. And if those laws have more effect in areas of deprivation than on your own, relatively privileged area, at least you'll have the satisfaction that your support for that law has saved a life somewhere.

So could you clear this up Whitey, because you're forcing me into serious moral gymnastics here to avoid pointing out what seems like the obvious with your statements?

I am so sick and tired about talk black and white, a HUMAN BEING shot and killed many people just like HUMAN BEINGS shoot and kill people in Chicago or Harlem or Colorado, the press perpetuate the race debate and you then have new terms like 'whitelash' and 'blacklash' etc popping up that just feeds the race card, I am so sick of it.

It is time the American Government decided to kick the shit out of the bully in the schoolyard, the NRA, they need to bring that organization to heel and they need to affect real change in gun law without eroding the rights of the people to bear arms, that means a total ban on automatic weapons, semi automatic weapons, very stringent background checks for all gun applicants, that sort of shit needs to happen, they also need to take these legally held weapons back from the people and will have to compensate them for doing so, this will not go down well, in fact there will be hell to pay but the price has to be paid to bring sanity to the situation, enough is enough, cut the legs from under the NRA now!!!

[armaghniac]

Seems to be a lot of people questioning the accuracy of events e.g. how could a 64 year old man be able to carry and conceal so many weapons, get them up to the 32nd floor of a hotel, hide them from room service / cleaners, set up cameras, then shot himself before he could be questioned etc. etc.

Golf bags. Get porter to bring them up.

if you were a professional pool player you might have a lot of long bags with cues in them, not that suspicious. 

[J70]

I'm sure it is the likes of Alex Jones pushing this half-baked nonsense.

Shows once again what a disgusting and fraudulent individual Trump is that he would praise a man like Jones and appear on his show.

[easytiger95]

I was responding to a pretty crazy statistic....read the thread.

That thread had stemmed from another statement about the "average American"  and gun ownership. I live in MA and approx 85% of adults DO NOT own a gun.

The averages are completely skewed by the extremes amd wengave amlotnof extremes in this country. The averages are not the experience of middle America. If you think they are, thats your perogative!

Do you think the DOJ break down the murder stats by race and size of city for the good of their health or do you think they release them in this format because statistics without context are meaningless?

You do know what an average is, don't you Whitey? It is an explicit acknowledgement that there are extremes and an average is used to give an overall picture. So just because Middle America (which is very loosely defined as being where you come from) doesn't experience terrible gun violence, other places in the states do, which means as a citizen of a Republic, you should be concerned about the welfare and conditions of your fellow citizens, all of them having been created equal.

Or you could go the route you seem to want to go, refuting a straw man argument that somehow we all think the USA is a gun ridden fever swamp, and in so doing, defining yourself as different from the black, brown, minority citizens of your Republic.

Fact - the USA overall has a far higher rate of gun violence than other Western democracies

Fact - that rate does not change just because your anecdotal experience means you have not seen gun violence.

Fact - you are the first person to bring race into this, in defence of your own experience, and your employment of stats broken down by race, which are completely irrelevant to an incident where a white man attacked a largely white crowd.

So again, why do we need to hear that is people not like "you or I" in places "we wouldn't walk into" who are committing gun violence, in the aftermath of an atrocity which is the exact opposite of your example?