Westmeath v Armagh (Sat 08.07.17) Cusack Park, 7pm

[Throw ball]

Loneshark I wouldn't get too upset about people disagreeing with you. We are only talking about football. There are more important things. As for Heslin/Grimley incident I do not recall that. I will say that Niall is by no stretch a hard or dirty player. He would seldom get involved in any wrestling. The Heslin incident - in particular - I was on about occurred near end of normal time. There was a ball played in and he went up with 2 Armagh players and the ball went wide. He proceeded to shoulder one Armagh player and then punch Brendan Donaghy in stomach.

The problem with tackling is important but I believe in general I feel this is over exuberance and poor techniques  rather than dirty play.  There are a couple of exceptions to this. That still does not mean that I feel the inconsistency of the referee was not a factor on the free count or frustration felt.

[Lone Shark]

Loneshark I wouldn't get too upset about people disagreeing with you. We are only talking about football. There are more important things. As for Heslin/Grimley incident I do not recall that. I will say that Niall is by no stretch a hard or dirty player. He would seldom get involved in any wrestling. The Heslin incident - in particular - I was on about occurred near end of normal time. There was a ball played in and he went up with 2 Armagh players and the ball went wide. He proceeded to shoulder one Armagh player and then punch Brendan Donaghy in stomach.

The problem with tackling is important but I believe in general I feel this is over exuberance and poor techniques  rather than dirty play.  There are a couple of exceptions to this. That still does not mean that I feel the inconsistency of the referee was not a factor on the free count or frustration felt.

I'm not getting wound up about it, at all. As a handful of people on this board will know, I've had more cause than most to learn some hard lessons about what's important and isn't important in life this year, and you'd find my pulse is fairly settled as I type right now. The point of my post was not to try and deal with the raving loonies who believe that any criticism can only stem from an inherent bias (and in fairness, if I grew up in Northern Ireland under Unionist control, I might have the same mindset!), but to point out to the silent majority that the idea that I might have any chip on my shoulder is plain daft. That's all.

Definitely I didn't see that Heslin incident you're referring to. Obviously if that happened, that would have been a hugely significant miss on the part of the officials.

However on the point of inconsistency, my whole thing is that while O'Sullivan's approach was his own, and there were some types of fouls that he didn't call at all, in my view Armagh were the ones who benefitted hugely from that inconsistency, since their "unique" approach was such that a referee could have given a card every two minutes, if he wanted to call it by the book. McCabe alone could have had one every five minutes. In fact if ever there was a case where a referee could have been justified in taking a leaf out of the rugby union book and calling over the captain to have a word with his team, this was it.

[Oraisteach]

LS, I didn't see the game, only listened to it on the radio, and while I took the remarks of the Westmeath commentators with a degree of skepticism, I value your insights as credible, coming from a disinterested party with no axe to grind or a county affiliation to bolster. 

[Throw ball]

Loneshark I wouldn't get too upset about people disagreeing with you. We are only talking about football. There are more important things. As for Heslin/Grimley incident I do not recall that. I will say that Niall is by no stretch a hard or dirty player. He would seldom get involved in any wrestling. The Heslin incident - in particular - I was on about occurred near end of normal time. There was a ball played in and he went up with 2 Armagh players and the ball went wide. He proceeded to shoulder one Armagh player and then punch Brendan Donaghy in stomach.

The problem with tackling is important but I believe in general I feel this is over exuberance and poor techniques  rather than dirty play.  There are a couple of exceptions to this. That still does not mean that I feel the inconsistency of the referee was not a factor on the free count or frustration felt.

I'm not getting wound up about it, at all. As a handful of people on this board will know, I've had more cause than most to learn some hard lessons about what's important and isn't important in life this year, and you'd find my pulse is fairly settled as I type right now. The point of my post was not to try and deal with the raving loonies who believe that any criticism can only stem from an inherent bias (and in fairness, if I grew up in Northern Ireland under Unionist control, I might have the same mindset!), but to point out to the silent majority that the idea that I might have any chip on my shoulder is plain daft. That's all.

Definitely I didn't see that Heslin incident you're referring to. Obviously if that happened, that would have been a hugely significant miss on the part of the officials.

However on the point of inconsistency, my whole thing is that while O'Sullivan's approach was his own, and there were some types of fouls that he didn't call at all, in my view Armagh were the ones who benefitted hugely from that inconsistency, since their "unique" approach was such that a referee could have given a card every two minutes, if he wanted to call it by the book. McCabe alone could have had one every five minutes. In fact if ever there was a case where a referee could have been justified in taking a leaf out of the rugby union book and calling over the captain to have a word with his team, this was it.

On McCabe I agree 100% with you. I must admit that considering the options on the bench I was surprised McCabe came on. Shields , Rowland and Mcelroy are all footballer options I would have thought would have been on before him.

[you take er!]

I am very puzzled by Lone Sharks comments. I am critical of Armagh when it's required. I think k they could be more disciplined, I think they have 1 or 2 individuals who need to wind their neck in when it comes to the chest out aggression stakes. But ffs lads WM were in the business of diving and the ref was pretty obviously trying to make a point that there would be no physical contact worth mentioning. It was embarrassing. The games I know have gone replaced with a type of netball that seems more suitable to sky sports and the commercial aims of the GAA. Ridiculous. Glad to be in the hat.

[T Fearon]

For what it's worth I didn't detect any bias in the referee.All of the black cards/red cards were warranted,and whether the referee misses some or whatever,if you commit an offence warranting a card and duly get a card,you cannot complain.

Also I think there's an increasing Milllwall like "No one likes us we don't care" syndrome developing in the Armagh "support" which is not at all pleasant.

[Taylor]

For what it's worth I didn't detect any bias in the referee.All of the black cards/red cards were warranted,and whether the referee misses some or whatever,if you commit an offence warranting a card and duly get a card,you cannot complain.

Also I think there's an increasing Milllwall like "No one likes us we don't care" syndrome developing in the Armagh "support" which is not at all pleasant.

Back in the day when ye were competitive ye had the Buckfast Brigade who would have been involved in plenty of banter but I wouldnt like to think a Milwall syndrome is developing.
By Milwall do you also mean fighting?

[tonto1888]

LoneShark youbgave a very comprehensive account. As an Armagh man I disagreed with some of it while a lot of it was accurate. I will disagree with you over the ref though. I mentioned anti Armagh. I don't think you are. I was just wondering how you could call yourself neutral while not mentioning any of WNs indiscretions. But how and ever.

A Milwall element in our support? What nonsense.

[T Fearon]

A general nastiness and aggression,which did threaten to spill over on Saturday.In any event we are away to Tipp this Saturday.

[tonto1888]

Indeed we are. Not good

[DuffleKing]

We were 10 points a better team than tipp in the last league game based on general play. The question is whether we can be more clinical in front of goal three months on and whether we have learned anything in terms of dealing with Quinlivan.

Of course Tipp can, entirely with merit, claim that they had a poor day generally that day in the league but Quinlivan was the beginning and end of their attacking threat. Fingers crossed he's still not 100%.

[Applesisapples]

I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.

[Taylor]

I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.

This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.

[Applesisapples]

I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.

This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Might have been mentioned but the introduction followed swiftly after the controversy surrounding it. Any way nit picking aside it remains unclear to most how it should be applied and application is not consistent that is the actual point I am making.

[tonto1888]

I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.

This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Might have been mentioned but the introduction followed swiftly after the controversy surrounding it. Any way nit picking aside it remains unclear to most how it should be applied and application is not consistent that is the actual point I am making.

Agreed. It's not even that's its inconsistent from game to game it's inconsistent within games