Brazilian football team plane crash

[stew]

Plane just ran out of fuel, apparently.

According to the ESPN website, the route was right at the outer edge of the plane's range, distance-wise, so fuel could have been an issue.

Of course, this is still all speculation.

Apparently this plane flew the Argentinian team two weeks ago, and the Brazilian and Venezuelan teams in the past couple of months.

That is wreckless in the extreme, they could not have stopped for fuel along the route? If this is true there are going to be serious ramifications for the decision makers and rightly so.

[93-DY-SAM]

Plane just ran out of fuel, apparently.

According to the ESPN website, the route was right at the outer edge of the plane's range, distance-wise, so fuel could have been an issue.

Of course, this is still all speculation.

Apparently this plane flew the Argentinian team two weeks ago, and the Brazilian and Venezuelan teams in the past couple of months.

That is wreckless in the extreme, they could not have stopped for fuel along the route? If this is true there are going to be serious ramifications for the decision makers and rightly so.

Heard a bit on the radio this morning about the theory regarding the fuel which suggested that this flight with was just outside the range of the aircraft even with a full complement of fuel. Taking this into account and the weight and conditions the plane experienced along the route meant that the range was probably a lot shorter. Also, there was a plane just in front of them which had requested an emergency landing, so they were put into a holding pattern burning more fuel. The fact there was no explosion or fire at the crash site suggested there wasn't much fuel to burn. The reason an electrical fault was being blamed was electrical power to the plane is generated from a couple of the engines. So they they ran out of fuel all electrical power to the plane would be lost.

All in all it's a series of unfortunate events. If it turns out that the plane was operating outside of it's range then I hope the operators get the book thrown at them and jailed for a long time. Unfortunately it doesn't change things for those that lost their lives and is no less a tragedy regardless of what happened.

[stew]

Plane just ran out of fuel, apparently.

According to the ESPN website, the route was right at the outer edge of the plane's range, distance-wise, so fuel could have been an issue.

Of course, this is still all speculation.

Apparently this plane flew the Argentinian team two weeks ago, and the Brazilian and Venezuelan teams in the past couple of months.

That is wreckless in the extreme, they could not have stopped for fuel along the route? If this is true there are going to be serious ramifications for the decision makers and rightly so.

Heard a bit on the radio this morning about the theory regarding the fuel which suggested that this flight with was just outside the range of the aircraft even with a full complement of fuel. Taking this into account and the weight and conditions the plane experienced along the route meant that the range was probably a lot shorter. Also, there was a plane just in front of them which had requested an emergency landing, so they were put into a holding pattern burning more fuel. The fact there was no explosion or fire at the crash site suggested there wasn't much fuel to burn. The reason an electrical fault was being blamed was electrical power to the plane is generated from a couple of the engines. So they they ran out of fuel all electrical power to the plane would be lost.

All in all it's a series of unfortunate events. If it turns out that the plane was operating outside of it's range then I hope the operators get the book thrown at them and jailed for a long time. Unfortunately it doesn't change things for those that lost their lives and is no less a tragedy regardless of what happened.

You have two pilots who know the score before take off, then are put in a holding pattern, how the hell do they not say F this and land elsewhere before continuing the journey? The mind boggles!

[93-DY-SAM]

You have two pilots who know the score before take off, then are put in a holding pattern, how the hell do they not say F this and land elsewhere before continuing the journey? The mind boggles!

Christ knows. Maybe they had done it before and got away with it or maybe they were under pressure from the operator to make the flight. Whatever happened  hopefully the truth comes out in the end.

[J70]

There was a crash on Long Island about 25 years ago where the plane ran out of fuel after being on holding patterns. The pilots knew they needed to land quickly, but failed to impress upon ATC the urgency of their situation. Basically coasted into a hill and broke up. Think it was an Avianca flight. Rough time around then for them, as it also shortly after Escobar blew up one of their airliners to kill a judge.

[Syferus]

There was a crash on Long Island about 25 years ago where the plane ran out of fuel after being on holding patterns. The pilots knew they needed to land quickly, but failed to impress upon ATC the urgency of their situation. Basically coasted into a hill and broke up. Think it was an Avianca flight. Rough time around then for them, as it also shortly after Escobar blew up one of their airliners to kill a judge.

It was the presidential candidate Cesar Gaviria that he was trying to kill.

Source: too much Narcos binging.

[muppet]

There was a crash on Long Island about 25 years ago where the plane ran out of fuel after being on holding patterns. The pilots knew they needed to land quickly, but failed to impress upon ATC the urgency of their situation. Basically coasted into a hill and broke up. Think it was an Avianca flight. Rough time around then for them, as it also shortly after Escobar blew up one of their airliners to kill a judge.

That was a famous crash. A lot of it was put down to 'cultural' issues such as a co-pilot unwilling to criticise a Captain and both of them unwilling to argue with New York Air traffic Control. That crash was featured in Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers.

I have seen reports that one of the pilots in this crash, may have been a part owner of the airline. Don't know if that is true, but it would bring its own commercial pressures on him. And certainly it would be more difficult for the other pilot to speak up.

Regarding fuel, there is a legal minimum amount that must be taken. That would include reserves and contingencies etc. I would be astonished if they took-off with less than that minimum. A couple of holds would only be 8 minutes. Their reserves + contingency should be 30 minutes at the very least. But once they knowingly go below 30 minutes they should be declaring 'Mayday'. They can declare a fuel emergency before that if they wish. The Columbian crew in the Avianca crash in New York failed to do this.

Fuel might have been the problem this time, but we need more info. Older models of that type used to have a scenario that you had to burn off almost all of the planned 'trip' fuel before you were light enough to land. This is true to a point of most aircraft, i.e. at heavy weights for take-off, you are too heavy to land straight away (except in an emergency). But on that type of aircraft, you would be too heavy to land for most of the flight. So dropping in for more fuel wouldn't be an option until late on in the flight. At that stage airports might be limited due to the Andes (although they must have overflown Bogotá) and maybe weather on the night.

Good site here (new info appears highlighted):
http://avherald.com/h?article=4a16583c&opt=0

[seafoid]

If the gaaboard ever had another get together there would have to be a table for discussion of airline incidents.

[muppet]

Final ATC conversation - translated (I can't stand over the translation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6Ab5x_C-CFg&app=desktop

[T Fearon]

Ran out of fuel and missed an opportunity to refuel.Another easily avoidable disaster caused by crass stupidity

[seafoid]

Ran out of fuel and missed an opportunity to refuel.Another easily avoidable disaster caused by crass stupidity

Liké the church and child abuse PR

[seafoid]

They had to go via Bolivia cos as the crow flies would mean hours flying over the Amazon .
Why not have 2 pit stops? Arriving late is better than not arriving. 

[muppet]

They had to go via Bolivia cos as the crow flies would mean hours flying over the Amazon .
Why not have 2 pit stops? Arriving late is better than not arriving.

It appears they were already delayed (by a previous flight and the team needed to train apparently) and that the planned fuel-stop had no runway lights. Thus it was unavailable at night.

I still don't know why they flew past Bogotá, which as the capital presumably had good facilities.

[magpie seanie]

An awful tragedy. A young up and coming team with so much potential. Tremendously sad. Nice gestures by Nacional and the Brazilian teams it must be acknowledged.

The circumstances surrounding this are frightening going on what people are saying. The trust we place in people in positions of authority is massive and that's why it must always be challenged.

[seafoid]

They had to go via Bolivia cos as the crow flies would mean hours flying over the Amazon .
Why not have 2 pit stops? Arriving late is better than not arriving.

It appears they were already delayed (by a previous flight and the team needed to train apparently) and that the planned fuel-stop had no runway lights. Thus it was unavailable at night.

I still don't know why they flew past Bogotá, which as the capital presumably had good facilities.

Most tragedies of this nature involve human error at several different stages
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJhSQxvkd0k