All Ireland Final Replay 1st October 2016 Dublin vs Mayo

[INDIANA]

Congrats to the Dubs, they beat Donegal, Kerry & Mayo to win this so nobody can say it was a soft one for them.

From our point of view, the goalkeeping change was madness, there are a lot of things you can't control in sport but this was one we could have. I feel sorry for Hennelly, he must be in a bad way for the last few days.

On the ref, he bottled the two Small decisions; in particular the black card which was stonewall. The Keegan decision was very poor also, he allowed himself to be influenced on that, it was a foul and nothing more (as an aside, despite this, Connolly had very little influence on the game for a player of his quality). The Cooper decision was harsh but correct by the letter of the law. McLoughlin should have been a black too. Both Connolly & Vaughan should have been black also by the letter of the law (one for a 3rd man tackle, the other for a deliberate hand trip). McCarthy should have seen yellow for a dangerous tackle on Vaughan, I guess Dublin felt they had been bullied the first day and he was laying down a marker there. As I said, these decisions were out of our control, there were other things within our control that would have resulted in us winning if we had done better on them.

Hard to fault the effort of any of our players over the two games; in the replay, I thought our back 8 were excellent - Harrison & Durcan in particular. Up front, all tried hard but against a backline like that, it's hard to get much change. A lot of the chat has been about how we need to find 1-2 "natural forwards" but the fact is, across the two games, the starting 6 forwards on both teams had the following returns from play:

Andy - 3 pts in 2 games
COC - 2 pts in 2 games
DOC - 1 pt in 2 games
Doc - 1 pt in 2 games
McLoughlin - 1 pt in 2 games
AOS - 0 pts in 2 games

Rock - 3 pts in 2 games
Connolly - 2 pts in 2 games
McManamon - 1 pt in 2 games
KK - 0pts in 2 games
Brogan - 0 pts in 1 game
Andrews - 0 pts in 1 game (didn't start the first game but came on very early so could call this 2 pts in 2 games)
Mannion - 0 pts in 1 game
Flynn - 0 pts in 1 game (started 2nd game @ mf)

It makes for pretty grim reading for anyone looking for free-scoring football but with the numbers of players teams get back these days and the low-risk football teams like to play, it's practically impossible for players to even get a shot off.

Now if Mayo had McBrearty and Quinlivan in our FF line, we'd probably have bagged another couple of scores and won the AI but for me, that's not where we lost this one. Could we do with another top-quality forward or two? Absolutely, but you only have to look at the stats above to see the quality of forward you need to even get a couple of points in a game like this. Easy to throw out the lazy cliches though about forwards, etc.

I think the fact that we had used up 3 subs on enforced changes by the 40th minute really affected us down the home straight in terms of legs. In the last 5 minutes of normal time, we weren't getting the numbers up in support because players weren't simply able to at that stage. Dublin on the other hand had two former POTYs to bring on and that was the difference, MDMAs running in particular.

Well done Dublin, hopefully we'll get an opportunity to take ye're crown next year.

It's not cliches. How many points did your starting forwards score last Sunday. leave the first day out of it.

Dublin were poor the first day. Last sunday dublin played well. that's the real test.

[sid waddell]

Mayo could have won an AI in 1996 and 1997. They could also have won in 2012 and 2016.

I'm taking out 2004 and 2006, 2013. They weren't good enough in any of those years.

Rather bizarre that you'd include 2012 as one they could have won and 2013 as one they couldn't, given that they were a lot closer to winning the 2013 final than the 2012 one and their championship performances in 2013 were more impressive overall than in 2012.

A goalkeeping mistake turned the 2013 final too at a time when Mayo were well on top.

Donegal were going to win in 2012 regardless of what happened early on.

I don't agree. Putting Keane on Murphy was another gaffe. Game was over after 10mins. No goals and it was a horse race.

No goalkeeping mistake in 2013 and Mayo are likely taking a 5 points or more lead into half-time. Dublin were not functioning and the lucky goal got them back on track. Different game had Mayo no given it up. The result would still have been in doubt but Dublin would have been in a sticky situation.

Donegal mowed teams down in 2012, especially in the third quarter, and there's no reason to think Mayo would have been any different, especially with Mayo being without Andy Moran and also a year away from reaching their peak. They would have done it to Dublin too in 2012 had Dublin beaten Mayo in that semi-final.

[dublin7]

Fitzsimons puts the ball over the bar in the last minute like he should have Mayo don't get last minute chance to equalise.

Ah FFS lad ... gloating. And then offering a level of analysis on a par with "if me aunt had balls she'd be me uncle"

If Lar can use if, but, maybe in his analysis then so can I. I wouldn't normally gloat but you can feel his bitterness about Dublin and its too easy to resist

[blast05]

So when Dublin aren't allowed to be effective (drawn game) we aren't allowed to consider it Indiana ?
One point in the overall (perceived) poor score returns from both sets of forward was the extent of the frees awarded in the replay. Mayo had 10 kickable frees and Dublin at least 7. If both teams weren't persistently fouling with their massed defences, then the forwards would have had more shots from play, thus more scores and more goal scoring chances .... more momentum.

[macdanger2]

Congrats to the Dubs, they beat Donegal, Kerry & Mayo to win this so nobody can say it was a soft one for them.

From our point of view, the goalkeeping change was madness, there are a lot of things you can't control in sport but this was one we could have. I feel sorry for Hennelly, he must be in a bad way for the last few days.

On the ref, he bottled the two Small decisions; in particular the black card which was stonewall. The Keegan decision was very poor also, he allowed himself to be influenced on that, it was a foul and nothing more (as an aside, despite this, Connolly had very little influence on the game for a player of his quality). The Cooper decision was harsh but correct by the letter of the law. McLoughlin should have been a black too. Both Connolly & Vaughan should have been black also by the letter of the law (one for a 3rd man tackle, the other for a deliberate hand trip). McCarthy should have seen yellow for a dangerous tackle on Vaughan, I guess Dublin felt they had been bullied the first day and he was laying down a marker there. As I said, these decisions were out of our control, there were other things within our control that would have resulted in us winning if we had done better on them.

Hard to fault the effort of any of our players over the two games; in the replay, I thought our back 8 were excellent - Harrison & Durcan in particular. Up front, all tried hard but against a backline like that, it's hard to get much change. A lot of the chat has been about how we need to find 1-2 "natural forwards" but the fact is, across the two games, the starting 6 forwards on both teams had the following returns from play:

Andy - 3 pts in 2 games
COC - 2 pts in 2 games
DOC - 1 pt in 2 games
Doc - 1 pt in 2 games
McLoughlin - 1 pt in 2 games
AOS - 0 pts in 2 games

Rock - 3 pts in 2 games
Connolly - 2 pts in 2 games
McManamon - 1 pt in 2 games
KK - 0pts in 2 games
Brogan - 0 pts in 1 game
Andrews - 0 pts in 1 game (didn't start the first game but came on very early so could call this 2 pts in 2 games)
Mannion - 0 pts in 1 game
Flynn - 0 pts in 1 game (started 2nd game @ mf)

It makes for pretty grim reading for anyone looking for free-scoring football but with the numbers of players teams get back these days and the low-risk football teams like to play, it's practically impossible for players to even get a shot off.

Now if Mayo had McBrearty and Quinlivan in our FF line, we'd probably have bagged another couple of scores and won the AI but for me, that's not where we lost this one. Could we do with another top-quality forward or two? Absolutely, but you only have to look at the stats above to see the quality of forward you need to even get a couple of points in a game like this. Easy to throw out the lazy cliches though about forwards, etc.

I think the fact that we had used up 3 subs on enforced changes by the 40th minute really affected us down the home straight in terms of legs. In the last 5 minutes of normal time, we weren't getting the numbers up in support because players weren't simply able to at that stage. Dublin on the other hand had two former POTYs to bring on and that was the difference, MDMAs running in particular.

Well done Dublin, hopefully we'll get an opportunity to take ye're crown next year.

It's not cliches. How many points did your starting forwards score last Sunday. leave the first day out of it.

Dublin were poor the first day. Last sunday dublin played well. that's the real test.

I shouldn't reply to a troll but out of respect for your cache of celtic crosses...

3. Compared to 4 for Dublin, three of which came in the first 10 mins, 2 directly from poor Mayo kickouts.

But you're right, natural forwards, blah blah blah. Rochford will surely have spies down in PP to see what kind of magic fairy dust ye're sprinkling on ye're free scoring forwards. 

[criostlinn]

NetNitrate .... you know the intent of that rule is to deal with the 3rd man tackle.
And Keegan did not "deliberately collide" with him.

My frustration with the episode is with Deegan (and Connolly for doing a soccer esque on it in looking for a card) for looking to have changed his mind after Connolly gave him a lecture, i.e.: as previously mentioned, Deegan first indicated a jersey bull but after the lecture he indicated a pull down movement. Keegan, if anything, was too innocent in that moment in that he should have jumped in and shoved Connolly and made it clear to Deegan that Connolly went to ground of his own volition (i.e.: dived).

Anyway, its one incident. Bar that, i would be 100% looking in the mirror to explain why we lost .....but its hard to move on from it immediately given the influence from the ex-Dublin players in the week leading up to the match

Not a dive. Only a dive when Aiden O Shea does it. And he wasnt waving an imaginary card around or trying to get Keegan sent off. Again these are only actions of that O'Shea fella.

I'll field this one.

Aidan O'Shea had his apologists out all over the place after his blatant bit of cheating against Fermanagh, by and large he was protect by many media figures and had the temerity to make bare faced lies when denying his dive which showed Fermanagh and Che Cullen absolutely zero respect.

O'Shea also went looking for Cavangh to get a second yellow in Tyrone  and made the card waving gesture to Gough so if you're going to start crying about injustice and double standards I would quit before you make yourself look very stupid.

Are you having a laugh. Aidan O'Shea was castigated for it. It was a huge topic for a couple of weeks. He was absolutely hammered for it and your only problem is that you don't feel he got as much as yon idiot from Tyrone who had his hair rubbed. As for the second part. Well like a lot of stuff you post. You just made that up.

But anyway. That's not the point I'm making. How much have you heard about Connolly's dive and gesturing for cards

Castigated for it? Hammered for it?

He was in his f**k castigated. Dessie Dolan said he was opportunistic live on air after the game, Ciaran Whelan asked for people to lay off O'Shea. O'Shea came out and lied about it in the aftermath and showed no remorse, had his manager come out and lie for him. Tiernan McCann got slaughtered last year, Aidan O'Shea had apologists out for him all over the country - no bans, no calls for public apologies, no bad smell following his team around. Whatever about defending their player, there wasn't even an acknowledgement out of the Mayo camp that what he did was wrong.

How much did we hear about Aidan O'Shea gesturing for a yellow card against Sean Cavanagh? About the same we have heard about Connolly. Did Connolly get Keegan done? Most definitely. Was it gamesmanship? Most definitely. Connolly was fouled though, it was a yellow card but he was doing his best to make sure Deegan issued the black.

Was there a certain ironic justice to it? Most definitely. Keegan has effectively used underhand tactics and the dark arts to get Connolly put off and keep him quiet in the past so I don't think Keegan can feel too hard done by when the shoe is on the other foot.

You seem to be whinging about things your own county has had no problem using in the past. Do you remember James Horan using the media to heap pressure on Joe McQuillan before the 2013 All Ireland final or his comments about Donegal's physicality before their 2013 meeting.

See now you just gone of on a rant and making shit up. I'll leave you to it

[moysider]

Congrats to the Dubs, they beat Donegal, Kerry & Mayo to win this so nobody can say it was a soft one for them.

From our point of view, the goalkeeping change was madness, there are a lot of things you can't control in sport but this was one we could have. I feel sorry for Hennelly, he must be in a bad way for the last few days.

On the ref, he bottled the two Small decisions; in particular the black card which was stonewall. The Keegan decision was very poor also, he allowed himself to be influenced on that, it was a foul and nothing more (as an aside, despite this, Connolly had very little influence on the game for a player of his quality). The Cooper decision was harsh but correct by the letter of the law. McLoughlin should have been a black too. Both Connolly & Vaughan should have been black also by the letter of the law (one for a 3rd man tackle, the other for a deliberate hand trip). McCarthy should have seen yellow for a dangerous tackle on Vaughan, I guess Dublin felt they had been bullied the first day and he was laying down a marker there. As I said, these decisions were out of our control, there were other things within our control that would have resulted in us winning if we had done better on them.

Hard to fault the effort of any of our players over the two games; in the replay, I thought our back 8 were excellent - Harrison & Durcan in particular. Up front, all tried hard but against a backline like that, it's hard to get much change. A lot of the chat has been about how we need to find 1-2 "natural forwards" but the fact is, across the two games, the starting 6 forwards on both teams had the following returns from play:

Andy - 3 pts in 2 games
COC - 2 pts in 2 games
DOC - 1 pt in 2 games
Doc - 1 pt in 2 games
McLoughlin - 1 pt in 2 games
AOS - 0 pts in 2 games

Rock - 3 pts in 2 games
Connolly - 2 pts in 2 games
McManamon - 1 pt in 2 games
KK - 0pts in 2 games
Brogan - 0 pts in 1 game
Andrews - 0 pts in 1 game (didn't start the first game but came on very early so could call this 2 pts in 2 games)
Mannion - 0 pts in 1 game
Flynn - 0 pts in 1 game (started 2nd game @ mf)

It makes for pretty grim reading for anyone looking for free-scoring football but with the numbers of players teams get back these days and the low-risk football teams like to play, it's practically impossible for players to even get a shot off.

Now if Mayo had McBrearty and Quinlivan in our FF line, we'd probably have bagged another couple of scores and won the AI but for me, that's not where we lost this one. Could we do with another top-quality forward or two? Absolutely, but you only have to look at the stats above to see the quality of forward you need to even get a couple of points in a game like this. Easy to throw out the lazy cliches though about forwards, etc.

I think the fact that we had used up 3 subs on enforced changes by the 40th minute really affected us down the home straight in terms of legs. In the last 5 minutes of normal time, we weren't getting the numbers up in support because players weren't simply able to at that stage. Dublin on the other hand had two former POTYs to bring on and that was the difference, MDMAs running in particular.

Well done Dublin, hopefully we'll get an opportunity to take ye're crown next year.

It's not cliches. How many points did your starting forwards score last Sunday. leave the first day out of it.

Dublin were poor the first day. Last sunday dublin played well. that's the real test.

Both teams played well the last day. Dublin made fewer errors and most importantly management did not mess up.
However Andrews and Mannion started and didn t score. Neither did McManamon or Kilkenny. Brogan and Costello got a bit of slack and points when introduced but not sure they would have got that slack if they started.
At the end of the day it was still only a 1 point game after we committed the mother and father of all c**k-ups before a ball was contested in anger.
No more than the own gaols in first half were unprecedented in a top game (admittedly they resulted from pressure and incidental), I cannot recall a change before a big game that blew up spectacularly like the goalie thing did.
Anyway that is for Mayo people to digest and get sick over.

[sid waddell]

No more than the own gaols in first half were unprecedented in a top game (admittedly they resulted from pressure and incidental), I cannot recall a change before a big game that blew up spectacularly like the goalie thing did.

Not a change, but Brian Cody's decision to play Henry Shefflin and John Tennyson, both of whom were suffering from serious cruciate injuries, for the 2010 All-Ireland hurling final takes some beating.

[dublin7]

One of the reasons Dublin are so successful is because they have forwards who step up at key moments to kick points or score goals when it matters. This season at various stages McMenamon, Rock, Costello, Mannion, O'Gara have got important scores from nothing when it matters. Mayo just don't have that bar COC in the first game. Cormac Costello kicked 3 points on saturday. 2 on his left and one with his right and the likes of Brogan, McMenamon and Connolly are also equally comfortable shooting on either foot. How many forwards could you say the same about on the Mayo squad?

[Il Bomber Destro]

NetNitrate .... you know the intent of that rule is to deal with the 3rd man tackle.
And Keegan did not "deliberately collide" with him.

My frustration with the episode is with Deegan (and Connolly for doing a soccer esque on it in looking for a card) for looking to have changed his mind after Connolly gave him a lecture, i.e.: as previously mentioned, Deegan first indicated a jersey bull but after the lecture he indicated a pull down movement. Keegan, if anything, was too innocent in that moment in that he should have jumped in and shoved Connolly and made it clear to Deegan that Connolly went to ground of his own volition (i.e.: dived).

Anyway, its one incident. Bar that, i would be 100% looking in the mirror to explain why we lost .....but its hard to move on from it immediately given the influence from the ex-Dublin players in the week leading up to the match

Not a dive. Only a dive when Aiden O Shea does it. And he wasnt waving an imaginary card around or trying to get Keegan sent off. Again these are only actions of that O'Shea fella.

I'll field this one.

Aidan O'Shea had his apologists out all over the place after his blatant bit of cheating against Fermanagh, by and large he was protect by many media figures and had the temerity to make bare faced lies when denying his dive which showed Fermanagh and Che Cullen absolutely zero respect.

O'Shea also went looking for Cavangh to get a second yellow in Tyrone  and made the card waving gesture to Gough so if you're going to start crying about injustice and double standards I would quit before you make yourself look very stupid.

Are you having a laugh. Aidan O'Shea was castigated for it. It was a huge topic for a couple of weeks. He was absolutely hammered for it and your only problem is that you don't feel he got as much as yon idiot from Tyrone who had his hair rubbed. As for the second part. Well like a lot of stuff you post. You just made that up.

But anyway. That's not the point I'm making. How much have you heard about Connolly's dive and gesturing for cards

Castigated for it? Hammered for it?

He was in his f**k castigated. Dessie Dolan said he was opportunistic live on air after the game, Ciaran Whelan asked for people to lay off O'Shea. O'Shea came out and lied about it in the aftermath and showed no remorse, had his manager come out and lie for him. Tiernan McCann got slaughtered last year, Aidan O'Shea had apologists out for him all over the country - no bans, no calls for public apologies, no bad smell following his team around. Whatever about defending their player, there wasn't even an acknowledgement out of the Mayo camp that what he did was wrong.

How much did we hear about Aidan O'Shea gesturing for a yellow card against Sean Cavanagh? About the same we have heard about Connolly. Did Connolly get Keegan done? Most definitely. Was it gamesmanship? Most definitely. Connolly was fouled though, it was a yellow card but he was doing his best to make sure Deegan issued the black.

Was there a certain ironic justice to it? Most definitely. Keegan has effectively used underhand tactics and the dark arts to get Connolly put off and keep him quiet in the past so I don't think Keegan can feel too hard done by when the shoe is on the other foot.

You seem to be whinging about things your own county has had no problem using in the past. Do you remember James Horan using the media to heap pressure on Joe McQuillan before the 2013 All Ireland final or his comments about Donegal's physicality before their 2013 meeting.

See now you just gone of on a rant and making shit up. I'll leave you to it

None of what I said is made up. It is all there, it all happened. Your hypocrisy has a luminous glow off it though.

[blast05]

Moy ... perhaps lay off the management ?!
They are the same as the players in that they do it merely for the love of the game, parish, county, etc.
No money, equally big time commitment and no reward of actually playing .... and they typically have families at home unlike most of the players.
Their (really brave) decision was made with an honest integrity driven by what they thought was best for the team.
I would sooner have a management that was not afraid to make these calls than the opposite (even in bloody soccer, Jose Mourinho was afraid to drop Wayne Rooney and instead chose to let him continue play for a few games so everyone could see what he was thinking).
Ultimately we can see it was wrong and thats tough but lets treat and respect the management as we do the players .... i.e.: we are forgiving of Robbie and of Cillian for missing the free and for Aidan and Conor and Andy for missing kickable chances from play .... so Rochford and go should be the given the same benefit.

[yellowcard]

The media and Mayo supporters appear to have castigated Rochford to such an extent that his position may become impossible moving forward. It comes back to that old mantra of the need to look for a scapegoat. Ultimately Mayo lead for about 5/6 minutes of the 160 over the 2 matches and were beaten by a better side however marginal. A former Mayo goalkeeper gave a very good interview about this today and it should be heeded. Far too many idiots out there who think they know better.

On Dublin, I think the manner in which they struggled to overcome Mayo has dampened people's willingness to label them as a great side. I'd prefer to give Mayo some credit as they are one of the best sides never to win an AI title. Consider this. But for a Donegal ambush in 2014 we would be looking at a 4 in a row side in both League and championship in an era when the demands make it very difficult to keep coming back year on year. They are also on a 29 match unbeaten run. I think that definitely elevates them above any side since the Kerry golden era whatever about anything else.

[moysider]

Moy ... perhaps lay off the management ?!
They are the same as the players in that they do it merely for the love of the game, parish, county, etc.
No money, equally big time commitment and no reward of actually playing .... and they typically have families at home unlike most of the players.
Their (really brave) decision was made with an honest integrity driven by what they thought was best for the team.
I would sooner have a management that was not afraid to make these calls than the opposite (even in bloody soccer, Jose Mourinho was afraid to drop Wayne Rooney and instead chose to let him continue play for a few games so everyone could see what he was thinking).
Ultimately we can see it was wrong and thats tough but lets treat and respect the management as we do the players .... i.e.: we are forgiving of Robbie and of Cillian for missing the free and for Aidan and Conor and Andy for missing kickable chances from play .... so Rochford and go should be the given the same benefit.

Believe me, I hope this management stays in place. They got so much right as a management where the other main contenders were in place for a number of years. They nearly got everything right in fact.
The decision was costly but no undoing it. We move on.

[Captain Obvious]

They are also on a 29 match unbeaten run. I think that definitely elevates them above any side since the Kerry golden era whatever about anything else.

O Byrne cup doesn't count as official games? That unbeaten run probably says as much about the opposition Dublin face and none of us know how much more the Kerry and Tyrone teams of the 00s would have won with todays lack of competition.

If my calculations are right Mayo have lost 11 times in their last 29 league and championship games.

[Gael85]

They are also on a 29 match unbeaten run. I think that definitely elevates them above any side since the Kerry golden era whatever about anything else.

O Byrne cup doesn't count as official games? That unbeaten run probably says as much about the opposition Dublin face and none of us know how much more the Kerry and Tyrone teams of the 00s would have won with todays lack of competition.

If my calculations are right Mayo have lost 11 times in their last 29 league and championship games.

Jim Gavin record as manager between Championship & League is played 61 won 50 drawn 5 lost 6 scored 91-978 conceded 44-726