Championship structures - the never ending saga?

[five points]

Quote from: The Trap on Today at 03:25:46 PM

Get rid of the pre season tournaments.




What harm do they do? 

They take up at least a month of the calendar - a calendar that would need about 14 months in it!!!!!!

So you'd expect county teams to start the national league cold, with no warm-up games? If you don't have the McKenna/O'Byrne  etc Cups, we'll have teams traipsing the country looking for challenge matches. Which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

[Tubberman]

Quote from: The Trap on Today at 03:25:46 PM

Get rid of the pre season tournaments.




What harm do they do? 

They take up at least a month of the calendar - a calendar that would need about 14 months in it!!!!!!

So you'd expect county teams to start the national league cold, with no warm-up games? If you don't have the McKenna/O'Byrne  etc Cups, we'll have teams traipsing the country looking for challenge matches. Which amounts to pretty much the same thing.

Not at all. Sure you need the challenge matches to prepare for the McKenna Cup!

[Lazer]

My suggestion is to keep the provincial championships, but after the provincial championships combine 2 provinces

Leinster & Connacht consist of 17 counties

Munster and Ulster consist of 15 counties (Add London and New York) and its even.

Have a round robin in each of the combinations (with groups seeded according to provincial and league performances)

The top 4 from each them make it through to the quarter finals.

Haven't thought it through in detail as to how the seeding would work, how many matches etc, but its just a quick idea

[The Trap]

Five points.........you are exactly the type of person who I would love to get in a room. You want time for counties to pay pre season tournaments, drawn out provincial championships, back door games, replays, all Ireland series etc because all you care about is the county game. You don't know what it takes to run a club, to play for a club, to support a club........
I on the other hand see both sides. To me the most important competitions are national league, championship in whatever format, club league and club championship. They need to be fitted into the calendar and if there is any more room put something else in. Personally I would love to see the railway cup as it should only take up one weekend.........

[five points]

You don't know what it takes to run a club, to play for a club, to support a club........
I on the other hand see both sides. .........

You haven't a clue mate. Over and out.

[The Trap]

I know a lot more about it than you anyway

[Rossfan]

Yeah, but we should be used to that at this stage. That's why I always have said that we need to define the problem before we define a solution. Otherwise you end up changing stuff and either causing more problems, or not solving the problem that others think is there.

Is the problem uneven matches early in the championship?
Is the problem the long season?
Is the problem the gap between matches?
Is the problem the effect on the club scene?
Is the problem the poor crowds?
Is the problem the style of football?
Is the problem the 'easy' provinces?

.

I'd say it's 1,3,4 & 7.
However HQ seems to think the problem is with the closing stages or the AI Championship proper, that it needs more games and more "excitement". Playing the 4 Qtr Finals the same weekend would restore the excitement to the AI series.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Resistance to these ridiculous proposals, the latest money-spinning wheeze from the GAA hierarchy, is gathering pace, I'm glad to say.

Well said Colm Collins

[The Trap]

Can we add in the fact that the under 20 championship will be played next summer, county minors cannot play club, under 17s cannot play club.......

[Rossfan]

Can we add in the fact that the under 20 championship will be played next summer, county minors cannot play club, under 17s cannot play club.......

No.

[haze]

Applying this new proposal to this year's championship and this weekends games, we might have Donegal playing Mayo next weekend and Dublin playing Tyrone. If there were wins for Dublin and Mayo it would mean last two games would be pointless (why would Tyrone and Donegal bother playing each other at all.) what sort of game would Dublin Mayo be?

[Beard]

I'm an NFL fan and have often thought about adapting the NFL system to GAA as both competitions have 32 teams and, albeit very loosely in the NFL's case, maintain a local element to a national competition. I accept this plan has many flaws but I thought I would put it out there for the craic as much as anything.

Firstly, get rid of the league.

Secondly, create 8 provincial divisions based loosely on the current provinces both with tweaks to ensure competiveness. Here is my stab at 8 divisions:

Ulster West
Donegal
Derry
Tyrone
Fermanagh

Ulster East
Antrim
Down
Armagh
Monaghan

Leinster North/Ulster South
Cavan
Meath
Longford
Louth

Leinster Central
Dublin
Westmeath
Offaly
London

Leinster South
Kildare
Wicklow
Laois
Carlow

Munster South/Leinster South
Cork
Tippearary
Waterford
Wexford

Munster West/Connacht South
Kerry
Galway
Clare
Limerick

Connacht North
Mayo
Roscommon
Sligo
Leitrim

Play 13 games in total. Play your 3 divisional opponents home and away ensuring high levels of local interest and attendance and 7 other teams (from the 28 outside your division) on a rotational basis every 4 years. Run regular season between April and July.

Trophy for winning each division

Top 4 ranked divisional winners through to 1/4 finals.

5-8 ranked divisional winners plus top 4 ranked divisional runners up into Wildcard round. Winners progress to 1/4 finals and straight knock out for there.

Would love to see teams ranked 12-20 and 20-28 playing off for second and third honours but for some reasons there is no appetite for lesser competitions in senior football.

Some obvious flaws in that it's very hard to get even divisions in the south of the country but this is a major flaw in the current system as well. Another negative would be you will get a couple of bad teams getting into knock out football every year due to being in a weak division.
Also in the NFL because of the draft even terrible teams can become competitive in a short space of time so you don't often get permanently terrible divisions. That said look at Tipperary and Clare, no reason why the likes of Wicklow, Wexford etc. couldn't do something similar and we could see some competive football across the board.

Pro's
Good chance for all teams to win honours (particularly if a second and third tier knock out tournament were adopted).
Consistent number of matches
Shorter season
Local rivalries maintained.
Dubs travel to London every year could help games promotion overseas.
Every county gets to play the big guns every 4 years

Cons
Potentially weak divisions
Impossible to exactly maintain provincial boundaries as they are now.
Adoption of words like 'wildcard' into GAA parlance would seem a long long way away.
Resistance to second and third tier competitions.

Anyway I know the idea is mad but I think we need to start thinking creatively as the current system is killing the game at the minute.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Fair dues Beard, maybe just the clear-sky type of thinking that we need.

[Owenmoresider]

Another suggestion to be thrown into the mix:

GAA: We Have Come Up With The Perfect Structure For The All-Ireland Senior Football Championship
Sean Cremin  August 10, 2016 1,752 Views

Some may yawn, but here we go again. We are throwing our hand up and changing the format of the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship. What is clear is that the current structure is not working. It is a boring system, it has run its course and it does not favour anybody. Change is needed.

Before we get into it in further detail, we will identify the major problems in the current system:

The gaps between games are too long.
The provincial championships are imbalanced.
Teams do not play enough games at the right time of the year.
The championship doesn’t kick off until August .
Games as a spectacle are dropping all the time.
Clubs are not catered for in the slightest.
Intercounty managers have far too much control.
Tradition is preventing progression.
Crowds are getting smaller.
Money talks.

So taking this into account, this new format is attempting to keep EVERYBODY happy. This new format will be played over three months. These can be three months in a row, or breaks can be allowed in between for club activity or whatever, we will leave this open to debate.

The provincial championships stay, but they are played over one month. The maximum amount of rounds in any province is four, so this is played off over four weeks. At the end, all teams will still remain in the All-Ireland championship, but teams are rewarded for getting to a provincial final, which we will explain later.

The provincial championships will go back to the old days and will be built on local passion and rivalry. This will help to resurrect each county and GAA as a whole.

The next stage of the championship will be the qualifiers. These will operate in a group stage. At this stage, 32 teams will be left in the championship, discarding New York. There will be eight groups of four, but there will TWO different sections.

The first section will contain two groups; A and B. These groups will contain the eight teams that contest the provincial finals. They will be split into two groups of four and will play three matches each. Whoever tops the group will go straight into the All-Ireland quarter finals while the other six teams will go into the Preliminary Round for the All-Ireland series.

The other 24 teams will go into an open draw, where six groups of four will be created; C, D, E, F, G and H. The only stipulation of the open draw is that no more than two teams from one province can be in the same group. Again, each team will have three matches and the only teams to advance here are the six group winners.

These group games will again, take place over one month. They do not have to be dragged out at all. Teams will be playing a continuous run of games every week.

At the conclusion of these groups, a total of 14 teams will remain in the All-Ireland Football Championship. Eight provincial finalists and six group winners.

A draw will then take place for the Preliminary Round of the All-Ireland Football Championship. 12 teams will be in this draw. The six group winners of groups C, D, E, F, G and H, as well as the teams who finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in groups A and B.

There will be three pots for this draw. Pot 1 will include the three teams from Group A. Pot 2 will include the three teams from Group B, while all the rest will be in Pot 3. Teams in Pots 1 and 2 will be seeded and can only face teams from Pot 3. At the conclusion of the draw, a toss will be made for home advantage.

After this stage, 8 teams will remain. The group winners from A and B will be seperated, but after that, it is an open draw. Quarter-finals, semi-finals and final follow and the championship is over.

This can all take place after the course of one month. Preliminary round, quarter-final, semi-final, final. 4 rounds championship over in three months.

Again these three months can be spread out or played altogether. The overall point is that the GAA season in general needs to be totally condensed. It takes way too long and it is boring at this stage. Teams are doing too much training and not playing enough matches. This format is game after game, what more could players want.

And at the end of the day, players are the ones who should be catered for in GAA. This does not just look after intercounty players. It frees up lots of time for club players.

Another point is that replays are scrapped. The biggest money making scam in GAA is gone. Replays cause nothing but hassle for everybody. Games must finish on the day. Extra-time is to be played and if a game ends a draw after extra-time, American Football style overtime is used. The ball is thrown in and the first team to score wins.

So there is the suggested new format. Again, it is an attempt to cater for EVERYONE in the GAA. Who might lose out here? Television, bandwagon fans, intercounty managers who want months of preperation and the GAA’s pockets.

But these are all problems that the GAA must solve if things are to improve. There will be lots of games that won’t be televised, but proper fans will go and watch these.

The GAA should slash the ticket prices and encourage fans to go to games. This would boost atmosphere and the quality of GAA occasions that everyone has loved in the passed.

Intercounty mangers won’t allow this to happen. DON’T GIVE THEM A CHOICE. Stop them from dictating everything and take some responsibility. Yes that is directed at the GAA hierarchy.

And finally, stop thinking about money and sort out the product that is Gaelic Games. Everything in GAA is diminishing at the moment. A lot needs to be sorted, so lets go and sort it appropriately.

So here is how the championship could hypothetically work out taking this years provincial results into account;

All-Ireland Qualifers – Group Stages ( A and B contains provincial finalists, C-H open draw)

A   B   C   D   E   F   G   H
DUBLIN   WESTMEATH   DERRY   LONDON   DOWN   OFFALY   CORK   ANTRIM
GALWAY   KERRY   ARMAGH   CAVAN   FERMANAGH   MONAGHAN   SLIGO   LIMERICK
DONEGAL   MAYO   KILDARE   WICKLOW   LONGFORD   LOUTH   WATERFORD   CARLOW
TIPPERARY   TYRONE   MEATH   CLARE   ROSCOMMON   LEITRIM   LAOIS   WEXFORD

All-Ireland Football Championship Preliminary Round – Round Before Quarter-Finals (Teams who finish 2nd, 3rd and 4th in Groups A&B, as well as the 6 group winners from C-H)

Derry v Donegal
Cork v Kerry
Galway v Tipperary
Clare v Westmeath
Wexford v Monaghan
Fermanagh v Mayo
All-Ireland Football Quarter Final (Teams who finished top of A&B are kept apart, the rest is an open draw)

Dublin v Mayo
Tyrone v Monaghan
Clare v Galway
Kerry v Donegal

Semi-finals, another open draw, and finals follow and the undisputed best team in Ireland will come out on top. There is a lot of games, but that is what people want. A team may have to play up to 10 games to win an All-Ireland and the minimum any team will get is 4 matches.

It is a lot, but the time and effort being put into GAA these days, means people should get a lot out of it. The best thing about this is that it can all be played off in three months. This allows nine months to fit in club games, third level competitions and more.

So there is the suggestion, let us know what you all think of it.

[thewobbler]

That last one is so contorted and contrived that my head hurts. 3 groups here, 4 groups there, you go that way, now you stand over there, you don't bother. Too many contortions.

The NFL based one prior to it has a fundanental flaw which destroys it: there is no draft system in GAA, so there is absolutely no way to artificially control the quality of county teams. Supporters might put up with the occasional dead rubber but won't put up with a year full of them or several years worth of them. The second flaw is that nobody will care a damn if they win their group, so you can save money and not bother with the trophies for doing so.