Championship structures - the never ending saga?

[Rossfan]

You want to have your Co Finals in September to have some chance of middling weather and pitches.
Or do we have to wait for the Yanks to return?

[AZOffaly]

Players like playing in good weather and long evenings. Why must club players just accept they'll be playing in muck and shite in November and December?

We were talking about September, not November and December. 

Yeah, but provincial club championships happen too. The earlier the county championships are over, the sooner the provincial club championships could be on. You could aim to have your provincials over in October if the County Championships were done in September.

[five points]

Yeah, but provincial club championships happen too. The earlier the county championships are over, the sooner the provincial club championships could be on. You could aim to have your provincials over in October if the County Championships were done in September.

Sorry, and this might be heresy, but I'd scrap the provincial club championships before I'd be prepared to shoehorn club championships into being almost finished by 1 September.

There's no logic in leaving 90% of club players idle in September and October to suit the 5% who end up winning county medals.

[thejuice]

Just to chime in I think the gaa proposal is like a bad compromise between staying the same and outright change. It's a really bad idea.

Just go for a straight knock out with an open draw or World Cup format. We know it works, people understand it, it's fair and it's simple.

I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought 

[Syferus]

Just to chime in I think the gaa proposal is like a bad compromise between staying the same and outright change. It's a really bad idea.

Just go for a straight knock out with an open draw or World Cup format. We know it works, people understand it, it's fair and it's simple.

I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought

It will not work for a sport based on local rivalries. Too many seem too willing to ignore that simple fact that resigns the idea to the dust bin.

[blewuporstuffed]

Ok here is a different suggestion.

Provincial championships are compressed and played off on weekly (May & June) basis as suggested
giving us 4 provincial winners.
EVERYONE else is entered into the qualifier system (28 teams)
the 28 teams are seeded 1-28 by that years league position.
The bottom 8 play in a preliminary qualifier round
Qualifier round 1 is then played with the remaining 24 teams (again using a  seeded draw, #1 v #24 etc)
That gives us 12 qualifier teams to join the 4 provincial winners in  the last 16.
the provincial winners are the now top 4 seeds(ordered by league position) and are guaranteed home advantage for this round.
The remaining 12 are again seeded by league position and again the draw is 1 v16 etc
Knockout then until the final.


so using 2016 as  a worked example
Tyrone,galway,Dublin, kerry provincial champions progress to the last 16 and are seeded

#1 dublin
#2 Kerry
#3 Tyrone
#4 galway

remaining teams are seeded due to league position and preliminary qualifier draw is made
(notional winners in bold for purposed of example)

Antrim V London
Louth V Leitrim   
Wexford v Waterford
Carlow v Wicklow     

round 1 qualifier draw is made
(again based on league position seedings)

Roscommon v wicklow
Donegal v wexford
Mayo v Louth
Monaghan v Antrim
Cork V Limerick
Down V Westmeath
Cavan VTipperary
Fermanagh V Sligo
Meath V Longford
Derry V Offally
Armagh VClare
Laois V Kildare

we now have a last 16 seeded again to give:


A)Dublin v westmeath
B)Kerry v Tipperary
C)Tyrone V Clare
D)Galway v Laois
E)Roscommon v Derry
F)Donegal  v   meath
G)Mayo v Fermanagh
H)Monaghan V Cork


then:
A V H
B VG
C V F
D V E

Then open draw for the semi finals.

[Zulu]

I haven't read any of the alternatives posted in the past two or three pages here but there are a few realities I think -

If you continue to link the provincials to the All Ireland then any format will be less than ideal as you're starting with unequal geography based groups.

It's nonsense to say only the provincials guarantee local derbies or that local derbies are important. Kerry supporters would rather watch their team play Mayo, Dublin or Tyrone rather than Limerick, Clare or Waterford. Provincials prevent as many local rivalries as they promote.

Linking the league to the championship is the key to any good format. It gives everyone lots of competitive games and brings the games to local venues.

All teams need to start the year with a chance of winning Sam, even though most haven't the ability to do so.

The season needs to be shorter but more intense.

The best of the weather in Ireland is March to October so fit in the season in that period with November to January largely an off season.

[thejuice]

Just to chime in I think the gaa proposal is like a bad compromise between staying the same and outright change. It's a really bad idea.

Just go for a straight knock out with an open draw or World Cup format. We know it works, people understand it, it's fair and it's simple.

I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought

It will not work for a sport based on local rivalries. Too many seem too willing to ignore that simple fact that resigns the idea to the dust bin.

I'm not ignoring that fact. Local derbies would still happen in an open draw system and that they occur less frequently might make them more intriguing. The provinces were not designed for running a fair sports competition. As much as I love tradition and history at some point you need to assess it is run its course.

[Owenmoresider]

I wonder if you could move the league to the summer and run it alongside the championship, that way every county gets multiple games in the summer and frees up the winter for players to have a break. I haven't worked out the practicalities but just a thought

They tried something like that with the hurling league in 97 I think but it was quickly abandoned.

[Esmarelda]

Ok here is a different suggestion.

Provincial championships are compressed and played off on weekly (May & June) basis as suggested
giving us 4 provincial winners.
EVERYONE else is entered into the qualifier system (28 teams)
the 28 teams are seeded 1-28 by that years league position.
The bottom 8 play in a preliminary qualifier round
Qualifier round 1 is then played with the remaining 24 teams (again using a  seeded draw, #1 v #24 etc)
That gives us 12 qualifier teams to join the 4 provincial winners in  the last 16.
the provincial winners are the now top 4 seeds(ordered by league position) and are guaranteed home advantage for this round.
The remaining 12 are again seeded by league position and again the draw is 1 v16 etc
Knockout then until the final.


so using 2016 as  a worked example
Tyrone,galway,Dublin, kerry provincial champions progress to the last 16 and are seeded

#1 dublin
#2 Kerry
#3 Tyrone
#4 galway

remaining teams are seeded due to league position and preliminary qualifier draw is made
(notional winners in bold for purposed of example)

Antrim V London
Louth V Leitrim   
Wexford v Waterford
Carlow v Wicklow     

round 1 qualifier draw is made
(again based on league position seedings)

Roscommon v wicklow
Donegal v wexford
Mayo v Louth
Monaghan v Antrim
Cork V Limerick
Down V Westmeath
Cavan VTipperary
Fermanagh V Sligo
Meath V Longford
Derry V Offally
Armagh VClare
Laois V Kildare

we now have a last 16 seeded again to give:


A)Dublin v westmeath
B)Kerry v Tipperary
C)Tyrone V Clare
D)Galway v Laois
E)Roscommon v Derry
F)Donegal  v   meath
G)Mayo v Fermanagh
H)Monaghan V Cork


then:
A V H
B VG
C V F
D V E

Then open draw for the semi finals.

I like the idea in theory but you'd need to work it into a calendar that includes the league and gaps for clubs to see if it's feasible.

[yellowcard]

The majority of people I have spoken to have expressed bewilderment at these proposals. I don't think there is a cat in hells chance of them getting through as they do nothing to address the fixtures problem and the unfairness of the chship structure. The general feeling is that the current system would be better than what they propose as they will use this minor change to try and end the debate about complete REFORM which is what is needed....not a sideways tweak. The hierarchy are getting further and further away from the grassroots disillusionment with the association and its lack of willingness to address the problems to retain the status quo. Too many at the top are driven by commercialism and acting in their own self interest. Who actually made up this committee that put forward these proposals, they are like something that was concocted after meeting in a room for an hour? Some of the proposals put forward on this message board and in newspapers columns are far more radical and in touch with what is needed than this 'committee' who presumably spent a considerable period of time putting the proposal together. The mind boggles.

[Crete Boom]

I haven't read any of the alternatives posted in the past two or three pages here but there are a few realities I think -

If you continue to link the provincials to the All Ireland then any format will be less than ideal as you're starting with unequal geography based groups.

It's nonsense to say only the provincials guarantee local derbies or that local derbies are important. Kerry supporters would rather watch their team play Mayo, Dublin or Tyrone rather than Limerick, Clare or Waterford. Provincials prevent as many local rivalries as they promote.

Linking the league to the championship is the key to any good format. It gives everyone lots of competitive games and brings the games to local venues.

All teams need to start the year with a chance of winning Sam, even though most haven't the ability to do so.

The season needs to be shorter but more intense.

The best of the weather in Ireland is March to October so fit in the season in that period with November to January largely an off season.

I would be delighted with any system that would achieve these points and hopefully these are the main goals of everyone involved.

Hopefully we will eventually get to the point where the intercounty season is from March to July and the club season is from June to Oct or something similar!!

[The Trap]

Why do county competitions have to run from January to September? Get rid of the pre season tournaments. I would love to sit on a committee and thrash this out for a week in the Croke Park Hotel. I could make up the committee from people who post on here and I would take pro county football people and pro club football people. I am pretty sure we could come up with a better plan that would suit everyone.  And do you know why? Because we wouldn't have to think about the financial impact of our proposals but rather what would be good for the future of the game........and in the long run that would be financially better anyway!

[five points]

Get rid of the pre season tournaments.

What harm do they do? 

[The Trap]

Quote from: The Trap on Today at 03:25:46 PM

Get rid of the pre season tournaments.




What harm do they do? 

They take up at least a month of the calendar - a calendar that would need about 14 months in it!!!!!!