The run up to conflict in Northern Ireland

[armaghniac]

Armaghmaniac it is incredible you neither understand unionism (that sees itself as British and by so doing why would it accede to leaving the UK and joining up with the current Irish 26 county state that wants neither them nor northern nationalists)?

Isn't that exactly the problem, a colonial identity that identifies with the mother ship instead of the place where they live. What further understanding is required?

[smelmoth]

The definition of murder is clear. Maybe some republican murders might have been manslaughter but the rest are clearly murder. Put forward a legally accepted authority that states otherwise or just accept that they were murder.

Some state killings are lawful (including the death penalty in some US states or the taking down of jihadists in a Paris shootout) and some state killings in the troubles will fall into this category. Others were murder.

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Were those killed in War of Independence murders or killings?

There were both killings and murders in the war of independence. Remember the legitimacy of a claim of independence backed by a democratic mandate does not mean that every act of violence done its name was justified.

[smelmoth]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.


If you actually believed

[tiempo]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

[smelmoth]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

[general_lee]

There's an interesting clip from radio Ulster yesterday from an army helicopter pilot whose aircraft came under rocket and gun attack from the IRA in Crossmaglen in the 70s. He spoke of his respect for those that were trying to kill him; and even wants to meet them. Well worth a listen.

[general_lee]

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

If you were in Ballymurphy in 1971 or Derry in 1972. And you witnessed say an aunt or a cousin shot in the back. Or even just a neighbour. Or a priest. Would you not feel some semblance of justification in taking up arms? Or would you accept the rule of law and just go to mass and pray for their souls?

[smelmoth]

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

If you were in Ballymurphy in 1971 or Derry in 1972. And you witnessed say an aunt or a cousin shot in the back. Or even just a neighbour. Or a priest. Would you not feel some semblance of justification in taking up arms? Or would you accept the rule of law and just go to mass and pray for their souls?

"Taking up arms" is a lovely phrase.

Going out and targeting someone to kill them and leave another family or families in the same position I was is a lot less  lovely.
Going out and planting a bomb to kill generally or to kill someone specific but running the major risk of killing many more is also not exactly lovely.

So what do you mean by "taking up arms"?

[tiempo]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

All murders carried out by Irish Republicans.
It does not apply to murders carried out by the British state and their subservient brethren who carried out ethnic cleansing.

[general_lee]

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

If you were in Ballymurphy in 1971 or Derry in 1972. And you witnessed say an aunt or a cousin shot in the back. Or even just a neighbour. Or a priest. Would you not feel some semblance of justification in taking up arms? Or would you accept the rule of law and just go to mass and pray for their souls?

"Taking up arms" is a lovely phrase.

Going out and targeting someone to kill them and leave another family or families in the same position I was is a lot less  lovely.
Going out and planting a bomb to kill generally or to kill someone specific but running the major risk of killing many more is also not exactly lovely.

So what do you mean by "taking up arms"?

Good answer 

It's all well and good looking back now and saying how morally corrupt it is to be involved in killing or murdering. I think the best thing to do is contextualise things instead of being deliberately disingenuous.

Take for example the parachute regiment. They caused considerable pain to civilians. Among one of their more heinous crimes was shooting a 12 year old girl in the back. Twice. They subsequently lied and were acquitted of this. Would you criticise, say a friend or family member who maybe joined a republican paramilitary group on the back of this?

[smelmoth]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

All murders carried out by Irish Republicans.
It does not apply to murders carried out by the British state and their subservient brethren who carried out ethnic cleansing.

This is pretty typical of any debate on this issue. Those willing to claim justification invariably try to weasel out of serious discussion when asked to outline their justifications

[smelmoth]

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

If you were in Ballymurphy in 1971 or Derry in 1972. And you witnessed say an aunt or a cousin shot in the back. Or even just a neighbour. Or a priest. Would you not feel some semblance of justification in taking up arms? Or would you accept the rule of law and just go to mass and pray for their souls?

"Taking up arms" is a lovely phrase.

Going out and targeting someone to kill them and leave another family or families in the same position I was is a lot less  lovely.
Going out and planting a bomb to kill generally or to kill someone specific but running the major risk of killing many more is also not exactly lovely.

So what do you mean by "taking up arms"?

Good answer 

It's all well and good looking back now and saying how morally corrupt it is to be involved in killing or murdering. I think the best thing to do is contextualise things instead of being deliberately disingenuous.

Take for example the parachute regiment. They caused considerable pain to civilians. Among one of their more heinous crimes was shooting a 12 year old girl in the back. Twice. They subsequently lied and were acquitted of this. Would you criticise, say a friend or family member who maybe joined a republican paramilitary group on the back of this?

So Ballymurphy and Derry are now replaced with the Paras. "Taking up arms"is replaced with "joining a republican paramilitary group", aunt/cousin is replaced with 12 year old girl and the military response is transferred from the first person to a friend or family member. But the answer to what you mean by "taking up arms" remains the same and unexplained.

Still no individual murders have been justified. Why are you struggling with this so much?

[tiempo]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

All murders carried out by Irish Republicans.
It does not apply to murders carried out by the British state and their subservient brethren who carried out ethnic cleansing.

This is pretty typical of any debate on this issue. Those willing to claim justification invariably try to weasel out of serious discussion when asked to outline their justifications

You said that justifications were entirely missing, you asked for a justification and you got one.
I have not engaged in side arguments, now you are accusing me of weaseling out.
Ethnic cleansing not enough of a justification for you? Seems fairly clear cut to me.

[smelmoth]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

All murders carried out by Irish Republicans.
It does not apply to murders carried out by the British state and their subservient brethren who carried out ethnic cleansing.

This is pretty typical of any debate on this issue. Those willing to claim justification invariably try to weasel out of serious discussion when asked to outline their justifications

You said that justifications were entirely missing, you asked for a justification and you got one.
I have not engaged in side arguments, now you are accusing me of weaseling out.
Ethnic cleansing not enough of a justification for you? Seems fairly clear cut to me.

So tell me about this ethnic cleansing. If republican murders in the 1990s were justified by ethnic cleansing then tell me about the related cleansing?

Do you believe there was any ethnic cleansing of protestants?

[tiempo]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

Seriously?

Talk me through the ethnic cleansing of Ireland in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

If you actually believed

Latterly the 6 counties is what I said and ethnic cleansing through the murder and persecution of Roman Catholics.

So what which specific murders does this justification apply?

All murders carried out by Irish Republicans.
It does not apply to murders carried out by the British state and their subservient brethren who carried out ethnic cleansing.

This is pretty typical of any debate on this issue. Those willing to claim justification invariably try to weasel out of serious discussion when asked to outline their justifications

You said that justifications were entirely missing, you asked for a justification and you got one.
I have not engaged in side arguments, now you are accusing me of weaseling out.
Ethnic cleansing not enough of a justification for you? Seems fairly clear cut to me.

So tell me about this ethnic cleansing. If republican murders in the 1990s were justified by ethnic cleansing then tell me about the related cleansing?

Do you believe there was any ethnic cleansing of protestants?

No I won't indulge in any more of you mealy-mouthed side arguments nor will I share any of my beliefs with you. Indeed I'm not sure I have shared any of my beliefs with you thus far.
You asked for a justification and you got one.