The run up to conflict in Northern Ireland

[general_lee]

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Who do you mean by Republicans? Is it the Provos? INLA? Stickies? IPLO? CIRA? Reals? ONH? All the above?

Onto the murders. Do you want a comprehensive rundown of each and every one stating the justification? Or are there any ones in particular you'd like to focus on?

[Il Bomber Destro]

The definition of murder is clear. Maybe some republican murders might have been manslaughter but the rest are clearly murder. Put forward a legally accepted authority that states otherwise or just accept that they were murder.

Some state killings are lawful (including the death penalty in some US states or the taking down of jihadists in a Paris shootout) and some state killings in the troubles will fall into this category. Others were murder.

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Were those killed in War of Independence murders or killings?

[seafoid]

The definition of murder is clear. Maybe some republican murders might have been manslaughter but the rest are clearly murder. Put forward a legally accepted authority that states otherwise or just accept that they were murder.

Some state killings are lawful (including the death penalty in some US states or the taking down of jihadists in a Paris shootout) and some state killings in the troubles will fall into this category. Others were murder.

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Were those killed in War of Independence murders or killings?

The war of independence was just as grubby. The only difference was that it had a very high level of popular support. Some dreadful things happened. 

[Rossfan]

All wars are grubby and awful things are done.

[seafoid]

All wars are grubby and awful things are done.

the war of Independence was the first in over 400 years where very few Irish people actually died, in relative terms

[tiempo]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

[seafoid]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

Believing in a cause is one thing. The miserable conditions they were subjected to would be another. I don't think you can discount that as a factor in why people did what they did.

When I ask for those who seek to justify murder to spell out their justification the "justifiers" fall silent entirely or engage in side arguments. Very, very strange that these clearly justifications are entirely missing. And it is murder we are talking about. Some fairly clear cut justification is actually required/

Not being a doormat to the ethnic cleansing of Ireland as a whole and laterly the 6 counties. The free state for example is predicted upon the murder of the occupying force until their surrender which continued during the war in the 6 counties.

The occupiers had already lost the people in the South. Not the case in the north. And then the psychopaths like the Shanklill butcher rowed in.
Violence was a solution in the South but it ended in a stalemate in the north, because of the Plantation.

The Unionists would have been better off cooking up a deal with the civil rights crowd in 1968. They had too much faith in their dud  ideology. Over the last 50 years they have been the biggest losers.

[armaghniac]

The Unionists may be losers,but 50 years later they are still there and people like Fearon think they are justified.

[michaelg]

The Unionists may be losers,but 50 years later they are still there and people like Fearon think they are justified.

Where do you propose that they go?

[Il Bomber Destro]

The definition of murder is clear. Maybe some republican murders might have been manslaughter but the rest are clearly murder. Put forward a legally accepted authority that states otherwise or just accept that they were murder.

Some state killings are lawful (including the death penalty in some US states or the taking down of jihadists in a Paris shootout) and some state killings in the troubles will fall into this category. Others were murder.

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Were those killed in War of Independence murders or killings?

The war of independence was just as grubby. The only difference was that it had a very high level of popular support. Some dreadful things happened.

Exactly but the romanticism of the War of the Independence and vilification of the Troubles is sickening to see. How some of the free staters can celebrate quisling Collins and barracks Adams about the Provos is an irony lost on most of the electorate. The two main parties of the free state were born from the gun and openly practice hypocrisy about armed militant action.

[seafoid]

The definition of murder is clear. Maybe some republican murders might have been manslaughter but the rest are clearly murder. Put forward a legally accepted authority that states otherwise or just accept that they were murder.

Some state killings are lawful (including the death penalty in some US states or the taking down of jihadists in a Paris shootout) and some state killings in the troubles will fall into this category. Others were murder.

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Were those killed in War of Independence murders or killings?

The war of independence was just as grubby. The only difference was that it had a very high level of popular support. Some dreadful things happened.

Exactly but the romanticism of the War of the Independence and vilification of the Troubles is sickening to see. How some of the free staters can celebrate quisling Collins and barracks Adams about the Provos is an irony lost on most of the electorate. The two main parties of the free state were born from the gun and openly practice hypocrisy about armed militant action.

.  History is written by winners so the War of Independence had that glow, which was undeserved. Whatever big houses are left have been turned into boutique hotels.  I think a lot of the romanticism of the war of independence has faded away TBH

The Troubles are far more recent. Even calling them the troubles FFS. Anyone growing up with them down south would have listened to countless Poilin ni Chiarain our northern correspondent in Belfast reports about murders in the mainly loyalist Shankill or mainly nationalist Twinbrook areas yesterday. And the hunger strike was hard to understand.  It was easy to see the thuggery of the killing. And it went on for so long.

Some of the killings stand out in their pointlessness and nihilism such as that of Margaret Wright , a Protestant alcoholic who was killed after she went into a loyalist  drinking den and was mistaken for a catholic.

[armaghniac]

The Unionists may be losers,but 50 years later they are still there and people like Fearon think they are justified.

Where do you propose that they go?

I don't suggest they move anywhere, but that they move into the 21st century and stop trying to wreck the country in pursuit of their 17th century colonial project.

[seafoid]

The Unionists may be losers,but 50 years later they are still there and people like Fearon think they are justified.

Where do you propose that they go?

I don't suggest they move anywhere, but that they move into the 21st century and stop trying to wreck the country in pursuit of their 17th century colonial project.

Does anyone know what goes on in the Prod schools from the point of view of indoctrination? Do they use the same history books as catholics, for example ?

[T Fearon]

History is presented from the perspective of the individual or community's background in any school.

Armaghmaniac it is incredible you neither understand unionism (that sees itself as British and by so doing why would it accede to leaving the UK and joining up with the current Irish 26 county state that wants neither them nor northern nationalists)?

A few poignant anniversaries occur in the next few days,the 40th anniversary of the shooting of 3 Reavie brothers in Whitecross,followed by the retaliatory shooting of ten Protestant workmen in nearby Kingsmill (after they tried to shield their sole Catholic colleague).Sadly these atrocities epitomised the so called troubles,all innocent defenceless victims whose murders achieved zilch for either side,and whose relatives wait in vain for justice.

[smelmoth]

My posts to date have focused on the republican murders because there are some on this site that think that these murders were or are justified. Though there remains none who have outlined that justification. What is the big secret? Or is it just shame?

Who do you mean by Republicans? Is it the Provos? INLA? Stickies? IPLO? CIRA? Reals? ONH? All the above?

All of the above. The reporting line of the man with his finger on the trigger doesn't matter.

Onto the murders. Do you want a comprehensive rundown of each and every one stating the justification? Or are there any ones in particular you'd like to focus on?

You decide which ones you want to justify. If there any that you know from the outset that you want to be able to justify they feel free to get them out of the way by including them in your next post.

But let us hear this justification. get to the point.