The run up to conflict in Northern Ireland

[seafoid]

One of the things that is unique to NI is the mural culture. Because identity in the South is not contested nobody needs to paint the gable end of the house with a historical scene or a martyr with makey uppy military status. 

[easytiger95]

I could take Tony's aspirations for a shared future more seriously if he hadn't explicitly stated in other threads that the crossover he sees between Nationalist and Unionist communities lies in the fervency of their faith and their opposition to things like same sex marriage.

I seriously doubt the size of the shared constituency in this new theocracy, sounds like the worst aspects of 50s Dev and puritanical Paisleyism. And does not sound like great craic to live in to be honest.

TF rightly criticises the compunction within both communities to define themself in opposition to the other. But his solution is to provide them with a bigger enemy to define themselves against - modern democratic secularism. Not a runner unfortunately for him, though Ayatollah Tony does have a certain ring to it.

[smelmoth]

It doesn't matter when you take the stance that there is no justification for killing another person.

It seems that he doesn't want to analyse events that brought about the death of thousands of people but would rather just say "no justification" about every individual action, which may be true but it is both subjective and unhelpful to the discussion.

Should I retract the "truth" and replace it with something a little more "helpful to the discussion?"

[smelmoth]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

The political system broke down over the injustices forced on Catholics. the PTB wouldn't accept the civil rights marches . It was only afterwards that the violence started.

Are you saying that there were no other alternatives available in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s?

Are you saying that murder was justified?

Are you saying that murder worked?

Are you saying that murder worked when nothing else could have worked?

Please be specific

the Unionists thought they could control everything and that enough brutality would put the taigs back n their place. Croppies lie down. With that sort of attitude violence was hardly surprising. And the state wasnt strong enough to come back to a workable equilibrium. NI was a complete failure in that respect.
.
Did murder work? Certainly the violence was effective in destroying the NI economy. 
Did murder work when nothing else could have worked ? The Unionists strangled everything else

Remember Sunningdale for slow learners ?

As a response that never rises above the level of pitiful.

The request was for specifics in relation to the justifications for taking a human life/ the aggregate death toll we have to confront.

It is also critically important to recognise that an analysis of the situation in say 1968-73 as ajustification for a shot fired or a bomb denonated in say 1995.

[seafoid]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

The political system broke down over the injustices forced on Catholics. the PTB wouldn't accept the civil rights marches . It was only afterwards that the violence started.

Are you saying that there were no other alternatives available in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s?

Are you saying that murder was justified?

Are you saying that murder worked?

Are you saying that murder worked when nothing else could have worked?

Please be specific

the Unionists thought they could control everything and that enough brutality would put the taigs back n their place. Croppies lie down. With that sort of attitude violence was hardly surprising. And the state wasnt strong enough to come back to a workable equilibrium. NI was a complete failure in that respect.
.
Did murder work? Certainly the violence was effective in destroying the NI economy. 
Did murder work when nothing else could have worked ? The Unionists strangled everything else

Remember Sunningdale for slow learners ?

As a response that never rises above the level of pitiful.

The request was for specifics in relation to the justifications for taking a human life/ the aggregate death toll we have to confront.

It is also critically important to recognise that an analysis of the situation in say 1968-73 as ajustification for a shot fired or a bomb denonated in say 1995.

"There's no point debating anything online. You might as well hurl shoes in the air to knock clouds from the sky. The internet's perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain't one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional "live audience" quickly conspire to create a "perfect storm" of perpetual bickering."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoA6zXyWY8

[smelmoth]

Seafoid I think a big reason for Unionist treatment of Catholic/Nationalists (and I'm not condoning it) was born out of the perceived disloyalty to the state and lack of trust.

Also Unionist condemnation of violence is a bit hollow as if the show was on the other foot the violence from unionism would have been ten times worse

The vast majority of people up here don't,and never did hate each other due to religious affiliation.

Northern Ireland was ran as a colonial outpost. It was run as if it was Burma or Belize (not that misrule was or is acceptable there either). The reason why recognising this is important is that there were not simply 2 classes of people in NI. It was not a simple taig vs hun scenario. Colonial outposts are run by small elites - groups of families and friends who not only have the wealth but also the positions. Administrative roles are shared out among the politburo members and their families (similarities with the modern DUP there) based upon rank, expectation and at best noblese oblige. Capablity and meritocracy do not come into it. The quality of administration this produces is predictably atrocious. The ability of thw working class (irrespective of religion) to rise to the top or even beyond the glass ceiling in such a regime is close to nil.

Over time there will be a growing recognition by the working classes in the PUL community that it was not a protestant state for protestant people but a banana statelet run for certain protestant peolple. 

[smelmoth]

But what is the solution after centuries? Continuing to pursue destructive competing allegiances to two established states that don't want us,or to build on the common shared culture,outlook and mindset and total equality?

Build it on top of what? What do we do with Irish culture? What do we do with the OO?

I really haven't seen anything, particularly in this past few months, to suggest (bitter)unionists think any better of catholics than they did say 40 years ago. Where do you see any interest in a party like the DUP to do anything like compromise or make any future "shared"?

At least SF met the queen, went to cenotaph for remembrance day and things like that.

Until a party like the DUP is out of power there is no hope for anything shared.

There is a stage managed situation with SF and DUP but I really don't think there is evidence that either one is better than the other at recognising and valuing the others culture

[smelmoth]

26 Co State will be running a surplus next year and has been a net contributor to the EU for some time. We are one of 27(?) equal partners in the EU.
As for the bail out - the Brits had the IMF in 35 years before us in 1975 and hopefully EU oversight of our budgetary policy will stop our politicians behaving like children in a sweetshop in future.
Just wonder how you'd make a common culture out of GAA people and Allister voters for example?
Will this "Northern Irishness" include Gaelic games, Gaeilge, Irish dancing etc or will it be like some Integrated Schools where such things will be outlawed??

Are they outlawed in integrated schools today?

[smelmoth]

What exactly do you think drove so many people into such a movement?

You entirely miss the point. Believing in a cause does not justify any means.The means has to be justified.

The political system broke down over the injustices forced on Catholics. the PTB wouldn't accept the civil rights marches . It was only afterwards that the violence started.

Are you saying that there were no other alternatives available in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s?

Are you saying that murder was justified?

Are you saying that murder worked?

Are you saying that murder worked when nothing else could have worked?

Please be specific

the Unionists thought they could control everything and that enough brutality would put the taigs back n their place. Croppies lie down. With that sort of attitude violence was hardly surprising. And the state wasnt strong enough to come back to a workable equilibrium. NI was a complete failure in that respect.
.
Did murder work? Certainly the violence was effective in destroying the NI economy. 
Did murder work when nothing else could have worked ? The Unionists strangled everything else

Remember Sunningdale for slow learners ?

As a response that never rises above the level of pitiful.

The request was for specifics in relation to the justifications for taking a human life/ the aggregate death toll we have to confront.

It is also critically important to recognise that an analysis of the situation in say 1968-73 as ajustification for a shot fired or a bomb denonated in say 1995.

"There's no point debating anything online. You might as well hurl shoes in the air to knock clouds from the sky. The internet's perfect for all manner of things, but productive discussion ain't one of them. It provides scant room for debate and infinite opportunities for fruitless point-scoring: the heady combination of perceived anonymity, gestated responses, random heckling and a notional "live audience" quickly conspire to create a "perfect storm" of perpetual bickering."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAoA6zXyWY8

There is nothing to stop you outling your justification for murder. Absolutely nothing. If you think there is no justification then say it.

Just don't hide in the stance that "there are specific justifications for the individual murders but I can't go into them now". That is basically pissing on graves

[seafoid]

Seafoid I think a big reason for Unionist treatment of Catholic/Nationalists (and I'm not condoning it) was born out of the perceived disloyalty to the state and lack of trust.

Also Unionist condemnation of violence is a bit hollow as if the show was on the other foot the violence from unionism would have been ten times worse

The vast majority of people up here don't,and never did hate each other due to religious affiliation.

Northern Ireland was ran as a colonial outpost. It was run as if it was Burma or Belize (not that misrule was or is acceptable there either). The reason why recognising this is important is that there were not simply 2 classes of people in NI. It was not a simple taig vs hun scenario. Colonial outposts are run by small elites - groups of families and friends who not only have the wealth but also the positions. Administrative roles are shared out among the politburo members and their families (similarities with the modern DUP there) based upon rank, expectation and at best noblese oblige. Capablity and meritocracy do not come into it. The quality of administration this produces is predictably atrocious. The ability of thw working class (irrespective of religion) to rise to the top or even beyond the glass ceiling in such a regime is close to nil.

Over time there will be a growing recognition by the working classes in the PUL community that it was not a protestant state for protestant people but a banana statelet run for certain protestant peolple.

That last point is really on the ball.

Stiff Little Fingers had a good few songs about it
One other point is that social mobility for working class people was much easier pre 1980 than it is now. There is something about our current economic system (globally, not just in NI) that means social mobility is severely restricted for unskilled workers. It is partly related to education systems but also to general learning opportunities. I think myself it has something to do with Keynesianism versus the current system which is built around monetarism. 

[armaghniac]

One other point is that social mobility for working class people was much easier pre 1980 than it is now. There is something about our current economic system (globally, not just in NI) that means social mobility is severely restricted for unskilled workers.

Pre 1980 people (like me) were in the vast majority of families who really did not have any opportunities in the previous generation, my Dad's family in the 1930s were dirt poor and had no possibility whatsoever of staying at school, despite an interest in education. Both my siblings and I and my cousins had those opportunities and consequently have masters degrees and the like. People in more recent years are in families who had those opportunities in the 1980s but who did not wish to avail of them or lacked the capacity to do so. It is much more difficult to achieve mobility in the latter case, especially where a large proportion of people attend third level.

[seafoid]

One other point is that social mobility for working class people was much easier pre 1980 than it is now. There is something about our current economic system (globally, not just in NI) that means social mobility is severely restricted for unskilled workers.

Pre 1980 people (like me) were in the vast majority of families who really did not have any opportunities in the previous generation, my Dad's family in the 1930s were dirt poor and had no possibility whatsoever of staying at school, despite an interest in education. Both my siblings and I and my cousins had those opportunities and consequently have masters degrees and the like. People in more recent years are in families who had those opportunities in the 1980s but who did not wish to avail of them or lacked the capacity to do so. It is much more difficult to achieve mobility in the latter case, especially where a large proportion of people attend third level.

I think this is a difference between catholics and protestants in NI . Catholics from any social level are more likely to be interested in education. Loyalists are not. And they have a lot more problems as a result now all the protestant jobs are gone. And for them social mobility is basically dead for all but the lucky few 

[imtommygunn]

I wouldn't say that at all seafoid. That issue is specific to certain areas e.g. East belfast with shorts and then there's mackeys and maybe wrights in ballymena. It is not the same on the whole.

[omaghjoe]

I wouldn't say that at all seafoid. That issue is specific to certain areas e.g. East belfast with shorts and then there's mackeys and maybe wrights in ballymena. It is not the same on the whole.

Pretty sure Bombardier would refute that and would say they have an equal opportunities policy to all backgrounds. I know plenty of Catholics that work there.

Is Mackies's still around?

Wright's you may well be correct although would be interested to see what the split is in the population in a 15mile radius around their factory in comparison to their workforce.

[armaghniac]

I think this is a difference between catholics and protestants in NI . Catholics from any social level are more likely to be interested in education. Loyalists are not. And they have a lot more problems as a result now all the protestant jobs are gone. And for them social mobility is basically dead for all but the lucky few
[/quote]

Catholics, especially out of town, always valued education. But in general social mobility isn't great for those who don't want it. The problem is that certain intermediate categories of skilled working class jobs have largely disappeared so people who do not move up, move down instead.