The run up to conflict in Northern Ireland

[seafoid]

Seafoid I think a big reason for Unionist treatment of Catholic/Nationalists (and I'm not condoning it) was born out of the perceived disloyalty to the state and lack of trust.

Also Unionist condemnation of violence is a bit hollow as if the show was on the other foot the violence from unionism would have been ten times worse

The vast majority of people up here don't,and never did hate each other due to religious affiliation.

Tony

Unionist distrust of Catholics goes back all the way to 1607. Settler colonialism is all about us versus them. You cant dispossess a people without it.  While there are great relationships on a personal level, at the level of identity politics they are dreadful. John Hewitts poetry explores this very interestingly, I think. He has one wonderful poem called the colony where he features a roman centurion as a Unionist.

This book looks like a corker

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/literature/poetry/ormsby92.htm

[T Fearon]

But what is the solution after centuries? Continuing to pursue destructive competing allegiances to two established states that don't want us,or to build on the common shared culture,outlook and mindset and total equality?

[armaghniac]

The solution to centuries of colonial bigotry is to stop having colonial bigotry.

[imtommygunn]

But what is the solution after centuries? Continuing to pursue destructive competing allegiances to two established states that don't want us,or to build on the common shared culture,outlook and mindset and total equality?

Build it on top of what? What do we do with Irish culture? What do we do with the OO?

I really haven't seen anything, particularly in this past few months, to suggest (bitter)unionists think any better of catholics than they did say 40 years ago. Where do you see any interest in a party like the DUP to do anything like compromise or make any future "shared"?

At least SF met the queen, went to cenotaph for remembrance day and things like that.

Until a party like the DUP is out of power there is no hope for anything shared.

[Tony Baloney]

But what is the solution after centuries? Continuing to pursue destructive competing allegiances to two established states that don't want us,or to build on the common shared culture,outlook and mindset and total equality?

Build it on top of what? What do we do with Irish culture? What do we do with the OO?

I really haven't seen anything, particularly in this past few months, to suggest (bitter)unionists think any better of catholics than they did say 40 years ago. Where do you see any interest in a party like the DUP to do anything like compromise or make any future "shared"?

At least SF met the queen, went to cenotaph for remembrance day and things like that.

Until a party like the DUP is out of power there is no hope for anything shared.

Is Nesbitt's party any better?

[T Fearon]

Has not Robinson attended GAA matches,attended mass etc? In any case you make my point.Pursuing tribal politics,bizarrely based on competing allegiances to two disinterested sovereign states only perpetuates the them and us zero sum politics which achieves nothing only bitterness and division.

We are long past colonial domination.As the late Fr Faul said over 30 years ago,the Brits see themselves as merely refereeing a fight now.Its time this mindset was jettisoned.


By the way the Orange Order has attended garden parties at the Aras and has a fully funded interpretive centre at the Boyne.The Irish tricolour fully and equally recognises the validity of Orangeism.

[T Fearon]

As much as the DUP position of power angers nationalists can you not imagine the equal consternation of unionists when they see Sinn Fein (a party inextricably linked to the IRA,and I'm not passing any moral judgement here) in a similarly powerful position?

In a new North of Ireland with a new mindset and emphasising a shared culture neither DUP or SF would command such electoral support.

[Rossfan]

Wonder how many Tricolours on display at the Rossnowlagh parade?

Problem with Tony's " Northern Irishness" is that there will never be a " Northern Ireland" independent State.
It will either be an unwanted part of a UK ( or whatever England/Wales/NI might be if Scotland pulls out) or at best an Autonomous region of an All Ireland Confederate State.

[T Fearon]

Yes,but if the emphasis is on the region,not which state we belong to,and our regional identity and culture is the priority,the constitutional arrangement will then be immaterial.

In any case the 26 county state is not independent,depending as it does on European money.

[Rossfan]

26 Co State will be running a surplus next year and has been a net contributor to the EU for some time. We are one of 27(?) equal partners in the EU.
As for the bail out - the Brits had the IMF in 35 years before us in 1975 and hopefully EU oversight of our budgetary policy will stop our politicians behaving like children in a sweetshop in future.
Just wonder how you'd make a common culture out of GAA people and Allister voters for example?
Will this "Northern Irishness" include Gaelic games, Gaeilge, Irish dancing etc or will it be like some Integrated Schools where such things will be outlawed??

[Milltown Row2]

How many mixed marriage's (catholic prod) are there in the north? Few posters here are mixed marriages...

[seafoid]

Has not Robinson attended GAA matches,attended mass etc? In any case you make my point.Pursuing tribal politics,bizarrely based on competing allegiances to two disinterested sovereign states only perpetuates the them and us zero sum politics which achieves nothing only bitterness and division.

We are long past colonial domination.As the late Fr Faul said over 30 years ago,the Brits see themselves as merely refereeing a fight now.Its time this mindset was jettisoned.


By the way the Orange Order has attended garden parties at the Aras and has a fully funded interpretive centre at the Boyne.The Irish tricolour fully and equally recognises the validity of Orangeism.

The flag was more hope than reality and seems to refer now to 1798 when Orangemen fought with catholics. After 1801 and the act of union that was it.

I saw a Shinner mural in Belfast a while ago that really struck me. It was about Beal Feirste and included an excerpt from an ancient poem about a bird on Belfast Lough, as Gaeilge. The poem was over 1000 years old. And the Unionists have nothing like that to draw on.
So they focus on the Somme....

[seafoid]

Yes,but if the emphasis is on the region,not which state we belong to,and our regional identity and culture is the priority,the constitutional arrangement will then be immaterial.

In any case the 26 county state is not independent,depending as it does on European money.

Neither is the UK, Tony. No modern country is independent

[imtommygunn]

But what is the solution after centuries? Continuing to pursue destructive competing allegiances to two established states that don't want us,or to build on the common shared culture,outlook and mindset and total equality?

Build it on top of what? What do we do with Irish culture? What do we do with the OO?

I really haven't seen anything, particularly in this past few months, to suggest (bitter)unionists think any better of catholics than they did say 40 years ago. Where do you see any interest in a party like the DUP to do anything like compromise or make any future "shared"?

At least SF met the queen, went to cenotaph for remembrance day and things like that.

Until a party like the DUP is out of power there is no hope for anything shared.

Is Nesbitt's party any better?

No. At least they have a bit more backbone though.

[imtommygunn]

As much as the DUP position of power angers nationalists can you not imagine the equal consternation of unionists when they see Sinn Fein (a party inextricably linked to the IRA,and I'm not passing any moral judgement here) in a similarly powerful position?

In a new North of Ireland with a new mindset and emphasising a shared culture neither DUP or SF would command such electoral support.

The only "shared" way is without either of them.

The oo are a disgusting organisation irrespective of whether they have went to aras or where they have went. Until something serious is done about them there will never be any true progress in ni as july is just groundhog month every year.

In the same vein though you can't dilute peoples identities. There should be room for "our" irishness or "their" britishness. Neither should need to trample on the other which is all the oo really stands for.

You seem to have this sudden feeling of being sold out and now want to deny your roots...

Make no mistake here the dup do not like "your kind" and would have you lose your entire identity.