Papal Visit to Ireland

[foxcommander]

To vast and growing numbers of people, it's an irrelevance.

They may not admit it but how often have you heard of people turning to prayer in their hour of need.

[T Fearon]

The more intellectual among us believe that there is a purpose to life beyond simply breathing,eating,working and sleeping until one draws one's last breath.We also believe that there is enough general evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man was once crucified on a cross yet three days later,arose from the dead.

[Maguire01]

The more intellectual among us believe that there is a purpose to life beyond simply breathing,eating,working and sleeping until one draws one's last breath.We also believe that there is enough general evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man was once crucified on a cross yet three days later,arose from the dead.

[BennyCake]

The Pope,and Papacy as an institution,is a global phenomenon that will attract crowds wherever he may go,or whoever he is.

The institution is fading in Western Europe regardless of the pomp .

Lady Gaga would make a fabulous pope BTW.

Trends in the church rise and fall they are measured over centuries not decades or even lifetimes.

100 years from now there is a fair ole chance people will be swarming to church and historians will discuss about the time in early 20th century when the church became unpopular due to scandals. But the outrage faded when the church cleaned up its act and the disgraces of the church faded to memory and then to history.
Similar perhaps to the reformation and counter reformation era.

The thing is, it's not within the Church's power to turn this around. The scandals are just one factor, and not even the most significant. The biggest thing is that the world has changed. People are more educated and are questioning what was previously accepted as gospel (pardon the pun). The Church has lost its authority (its actual authority, not just its moral authority) even in countries like Ireland, so its ability to influence society (through schools, hospitals, politicians etc.) is greatly diminished. Just look at how many TDs backed the Yes campaign, in defiance of the Church.

It doesn't matter how much the Church cleans up its act, or how much of a force for good it tries to become. To vast and growing numbers of people, it's an irrelevance. To some it is central to their lives, and will remain so, but there's no going back. The trend is one way.

Spot on.

If some turned away from the church because of abuse scandals, you have to wonder how strong their faith was.

[Maguire01]

To vast and growing numbers of people, it's an irrelevance.

They may not admit it but how often have you heard of people turning to prayer in their hour of need.

Yes, in desperate time, people do desperate things. But people saying a few prayers when they're in trouble won't reverse the fortunes of the institution.

[Oraisteach]

OK, Tony, I'll bite.  What evidence?  I thought the essence of faith was believing in something for which there was no empirical evidence?  And what's with the silly intellectual remark? 

[haveaharp]

The Pope,and Papacy as an institution,is a global phenomenon that will attract crowds wherever he may go,or whoever he is.

The institution is fading in Western Europe regardless of the pomp .

Lady Gaga would make a fabulous pope BTW.

Trends in the church rise and fall they are measured over centuries not decades or even lifetimes.

100 years from now there is a fair ole chance people will be swarming to church and historians will discuss about the time in early 20th century when the church became unpopular due to scandals. But the outrage faded when the church cleaned up its act and the disgraces of the church faded to memory and then to history.
Similar perhaps to the reformation and counter reformation era.

The thing is, it's not within the Church's power to turn this around. The scandals are just one factor, and not even the most significant. The biggest thing is that the world has changed. People are more educated and are questioning what was previously accepted as gospel (pardon the pun). The Church has lost its authority (its actual authority, not just its moral authority) even in countries like Ireland, so its ability to influence society (through schools, hospitals, politicians etc.) is greatly diminished. Just look at how many TDs backed the Yes campaign, in defiance of the Church.

It doesn't matter how much the Church cleans up its act, or how much of a force for good it tries to become. To vast and growing numbers of people, it's an irrelevance. To some it is central to their lives, and will remain so, but there's no going back. The trend is one way.

Spot on.

If some turned away from the church because of abuse scandals, you have to wonder how strong their faith was.

Faith in a church that failed it's people and faith in God should not be confused.

[T Fearon]

The Church didn't fail anyone.For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

[Maguire01]

The Church didn't fail anyone.

It didn't fail victims of abuse?

For over 2000 years it has led millions of people to eternal salvation

Any proof?

[From the Bunker]

My father would tell a story of a woman in the 1940/50's then in her 70's that ran a pub. Now the toilet facilities in the pub were non existent. In other words if you were caught short you had to go out the back of the premises and do it against a wall. Anyway one day while she was stacking bottles or what ever, she seen a Priest doing what any man would do after a few drinks out draining the spuds. To her bewilderment she could not believe he had a Penis. It just showed you the innocence of the time that she thought Priests were born without one (a penis). The innocence!

[omaghjoe]

The Pope,and Papacy as an institution,is a global phenomenon that will attract crowds wherever he may go,or whoever he is.

The institution is fading in Western Europe regardless of the pomp .

Lady Gaga would make a fabulous pope BTW.

Trends in the church rise and fall they are measured over centuries not decades or even lifetimes.

100 years from now there is a fair ole chance people will be swarming to church and historians will discuss about the time in early 20th century when the church became unpopular due to scandals. But the outrage faded when the church cleaned up its act and the disgraces of the church faded to memory and then to history.
Similar perhaps to the reformation and counter reformation era.

The thing is, it's not within the Church's power to turn this around. The scandals are just one factor, and not even the most significant. The biggest thing is that the world has changed. People are more educated and are questioning what was previously accepted as gospel (pardon the pun). The Church has lost its authority (its actual authority, not just its moral authority) even in countries like Ireland, so its ability to influence society (through schools, hospitals, politicians etc.) is greatly diminished. Just look at how many TDs backed the Yes campaign, in defiance of the Church.

It doesn't matter how much the Church cleans up its act, or how much of a force for good it tries to become. To vast and growing numbers of people, it's an irrelevance. To some it is central to their lives, and will remain so, but there's no going back. The trend is one way.

My own opinion ( this is all speculative of course, same as your post) is that the current trend (like all trends) will peak and then begin to decline. In fact the current trend may actual disappear as unlike the Reformation there is no central cause or organisation to rally around and sustain it. Although it ll probably not completely disappear as there will always be people who struggle with the faith.

The current trend is based on individualism as a means of personal fulfillment, which is not attainable or sustainable. Contrary to what you believe, I believe that improving Education and thought will actually help turn the tide against individualism and there is actually personal fulfillment in living your life to the church's message.

Also the church is still the Moral Authority for the Western World. How much of morals of the church does the average agnostic/atheist disagree with? Probably about the same (or less, maybe!) as the average church goer! That tells you they, and more importantly society, haven't really journeyed that far away from the church.

[T Fearon]

Like Howard Hughes, fabulously wealthy but reclusive,anyone with half a brain will realise sooner or later that the pursuit of riches and fulfilment through these is unattainable,and will search inevitably for a greater meaning.

[Maguire01]

Like Howard Hughes, fabulously wealthy but reclusive,anyone with half a brain will realise sooner or later that the pursuit of riches and fulfilment through these is unattainable,and will search inevitably for a greater meaning.

Just because someone has no religious belief doesn't mean they're in pursuit of riches for fulfillment or otherwise.

And plenty of believers keen on accumulating wealth.

[ONeill]

The more intellectual among us believe that there is a purpose to life beyond simply breathing,eating,working and sleeping until one draws one's last breath.We also believe that there is enough general evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man was once crucified on a cross yet three days later,arose from the dead.

The longest oxymoron ever.

[omaghjoe]

The more intellectual among us believe that there is a purpose to life beyond simply breathing,eating,working and sleeping until one draws one's last breath.We also believe that there is enough general evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a man was once crucified on a cross yet three days later,arose from the dead.

Its not about proof Tony, its about faith.