Alternative GAA Season Structure: The McNamee System

[Stall the Bailer]

Let's not reward mediocrity: If teams want to play in July, they need to earn it.[/li][/list]

17   Laois (D2)   12
18   Armagh (D2)   12
19   Wexford (D3)   11
20   Fermanagh (D3)   10.5
21   Wicklow (D4)   10
22   Sligo (D3)   9
23   Limerick (D3)   9
24   Leitrim (D4)   9
25   Longford (D3)   6
26   Antrim (D4)   6
27   Waterford (D4)   5
28   Louth (D2)   4
29   London (D4)   3
30   Carlow (D4)   3
31   Offaly (D3)   1.5
32   Westmeath (D1)   0

I think this is very disrespectful to the teams listed. Very few of these counties have populations in excess of 100k or more than 40 clubs like most of the top 16. They may actually be overachieving in certain cases.
Take small counties like Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim, they have only win 3 provincial titles between them. Failure of them not making the top 16 is not a sign of mediocrity.
Counties like Dublin, Cork and Mayo who are almost certain of making the last 12 every year and with their resources, could be accused of mediocrity due to them not winning more All Irelands than currently do.

[Chimley]

This might just be me but those totals seem very high for 2014. I can't see where you calculated the points for Mayo as an example I'm familiar with:

Last year we had 4 wins , 1 draw and 2 defeats in the league giving by your method, 11.25 points. Add 12 for winning Connacht and you have 23.25.

[Chimley]

This might just be me but those totals seem very high for 2014. I can't see where you calculated the points for Mayo as an example I'm familiar with:

Last year we had 4 wins , 1 draw and 2 defeats in the league giving by your method, 11.25 points. Add 12 for winning Connacht and you have 23.25.

I think I've figured it out. You doubled the points for each league win but did not change it in your initial table.

[Farrandeelin]

Er Stall the Baler, I think wobbler is against awarding mediocrity. Personally, I think it is a great system to be honest. Yes people will find flaws in everything, and my only bugbear is that the county season would be condensed too much. However, if the GAA are going to go ahead with finishing the club championships in one calendar year, then it's fine by me. Yes, there might be some counties who would be left out, but that will always be the way with the world. You may say that's easy coming from a Mayoman as we have it handy in Connacht, but I remember (as do others) days when we weren't too hot and the day will eventually happen when we drop out of division one of the league. You obviously put a lot of thought into it anyway wobbler, and no more than yourself, I'm against change for the sake of change especially after one bad hiding two(three/four) counties got.

[thewobbler]

Stall - how's it disrespectful? On 1 March they have exactly the same chance of making the last 16 as every other county in Ireland. If by 1 July they've shown that (in this particular season only) they're not in the top 16 teams in Ireland, then why create a "B" competition for them to continue proving this point? Go back to club football, charge the batteries, and work harder the following season.

Chimley, this is the multiplier effect.

Mayo got 9 league points in the National League in D1 in 2014. This is multiplied by the D1 multiplier (2.5), to give 22.5. Then they won 2, 4, and 6 points in their 3 matches in Connacht Championship. That's 34.5.

If Mayo had have got their 9 league points in D4, then that would have been multiplied by 1. They'd have still got 21 points and more than comfortably made the AI Championship - just not as as a top seed.

[Chimley]

Chimley, this is the multiplier effect.

Mayo got 9 league points in the National League in D1 in 2014. This is multiplied by the D1 multiplier (2.5), to give 22.5. Then they won 2, 4, and 6 points in their 3 matches in Connacht Championship. That's 34.5.

If Mayo had have got their 9 league points in D4, then that would have been multiplied by 1. They'd have still got 21 points and more than comfortably made the AI Championship - just not as as a top seed.

Thanks Wobbler. I was thrown off by the fact that you had written '- A D4 win is worth 1 Championship Entry Point (a draw is worth 0.5).' I think that should read '- A D4 point is worth 1 Championship Entry Point (a draw is worth 1).'

[Stall the Bailer]

Stall - how's it disrespectful? On 1 March they have exactly the same chance of making the last 16 as every other county in Ireland. If by 1 July they've shown that (in this particular season only) they're not in the top 16 teams in Ireland, then why create a "B" competition for them to continue proving this point? Go back to club football, charge the batteries, and work harder the following season.

Because on March the 1st not all teams are starting with same resources available. Reaching a provincial final could be a over achievement for some and underachievement for others. For some achieving the top 16 may never be possible. When setting goals you need to set realistic ones. The true fact is, that there will be some counties who will never win a sam maguire. Why pretend they can and then call them mediocre  when they don't?

[Stall the Bailer]

But personally I'd be against weighting Championship football by opponents.  Championship football is the luck of the draw, and same as for the Superbowl or the FA Cup, some years you might have to work harder to achieve the same result... your target doesn't change because of who you are playing - it's still taking the steps needed to win silverware.  Hence I'd prefer that it's the steps that are rewarded, and not what was required at each step.

Sorry the current Provincial system is weighed in favour of Connacht and Munster, less teams and games to play in order to win, and also further against Ulster where more of the better teams are.
Any new proposal should address this bias in the current system.
For example
Donegal may need to beat a D3 and  3xD1 teams to win Ulster  (Donegal will need to beat a D3 and 2xD1 to make the last 12) while
Kerry/Cork will only need to beat a D3 and a D1 team to win Munster (both will only need to beat D3 to get into the last 12)
Mayo only need to win one game to make the last 12 and so on for many other counties.

[thewobbler]

Thanks Chimley, I've updated the opening post to correct the anomaly.

Stall, let's not get hung up on words - you seem to have a bizarre objection to my use of the word "mediocre", when a good league-based system is by far the best way to allow poor, mediocre and good teams to both perform at their own level, and improve when the time is right. This is actually at the heart of the proposal.

Where we might differ is that I'm fundamentally against junior / B championships in county football, as my belief is that senior club football should be prioritised ahead of second or third tier county activity. One of the pillars of this proposal is that the county season is truncated with this in mind. If the second 16 were to subsequently enter a "B" competition, then not only would this short-season concept be ruined, but it would create an unsatisfactory competition, where for example using 2014's teams, Armagh would (I imagine) have no interest in competing, and would send out second string teams until their exit. Which would help nobody. Tommy Murphy on speed.

[rosnarun]

while it is an excellent and fair system and a lot of more thought has gone into it than our replies but a couple of obsevations

1)would the significance of any result be hard to gauge at the time or beforehand which could make them a hard sell
2)would the  league really last if its mainm purpose was to serve the allireland series.
3)some smaller counties can only peak for summer , due to shallow squads and small numbers and occasionally punch occasionally  above their weight . im think Sligo longford and wexford. would these counties be permantly be cut off from serious football.
4) being regularly cut off there could be a serious downward spiral ,  players leaving or unwilling to commit when they cannot see themselves playing past late may or june ( i know the current situation is similar but isint improvement the point of the excercize)

[thewobbler]

But personally I'd be against weighting Championship football by opponents.  Championship football is the luck of the draw, and same as for the Superbowl or the FA Cup, some years you might have to work harder to achieve the same result... your target doesn't change because of who you are playing - it's still taking the steps needed to win silverware.  Hence I'd prefer that it's the steps that are rewarded, and not what was required at each step.

Sorry the current Provincial system is weighed in favour of Connacht and Munster, less teams and games to play in order to win, and also further against Ulster where more of the better teams are.
Any new proposal should address this bias in the current system.
For example
Donegal may need to beat a D3 and  3xD1 teams to win Ulster  (Donegal will need to beat a D3 and 2xD1 to make the last 12) while
Kerry/Cork will only need to beat a D3 and a D1 team to win Munster (both will only need to beat D3 to get into the last 12)
Mayo only need to win one game to make the last 12 and so on for many other counties.

You might be right. But the only genuine solution to the inequities of the provincial system is to rip it up and start again, by first balancing the numbers in each region. Personally I'd prefer to see Down win Ulster than win north. I do like heritage.

Regarding qualifying, I've not done much research into numbers, but using my "back of feg packet" multipliers:

- Winning 3 games in D1 would give you 15 points and a certain place in the AI championship.
- Winning 4 games in D2 would give you 16 points and a certain place in the AI championship.
- Winning 5 games in D3 would give you 15 points and a certain place in the AI championship.
- Winning 7 games in D4 would give you 14 points and an almost certain place in the AI championship.

That should be every team's early season goal. Do that, and the Provincials are icing on the cake.

By the way, if Monaghan and Cork both finished D1 on 4 league points (giving them 10 qualifying points), and Monaghan were playing Antrim in the USFC Q/F (worth 2 points) and Cork were directly through to playing Kerry in the MSFC S/F (worth 4 points)... who would you be backing to make the final 16?

That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.

[Chimley]

While it might need some tweaking, I think the basic idea has great merit. I can see the GAA looking at this idea or a variant going forward.

[thewobbler]

while it is an excellent and fair system and a lot of more thought has gone into it than our replies but a couple of obsevations

1)would the significance of any result be hard to gauge at the time or beforehand which could make them a hard sell
2)would the  league really last if its mainm purpose was to serve the allireland series.
3)some smaller counties can only peak for summer , due to shallow squads and small numbers and occasionally punch occasionally  above their weight . im think Sligo longford and wexford. would these counties be permantly be cut off from serious football.
4) being regularly cut off there could be a serious downward spiral ,  players leaving or unwilling to commit when they cannot see themselves playing past late may or june ( i know the current situation is similar but isint improvement the point of the excercize)

1. See above post re setting your league goals early (3 D1 wins, 4 D2 wins, etc). Everyone will know what they need to be sure of playing in the big show; so every result is significant.

2. The purpose of the league (I believe) would be re-fulfilled by the multiplier making your Division hugely significant. Also, by removing the end of year play-offs, the best teams in a league format take the honours.

3. In saying that some counties can only peak for summer, then surely a truncated season is a helping hand? Take Sligo - they would then need their players to be fundamentally committed from March to May. If that commitment pays off, then it's bonus territory.

4. Again, if I was a player in a weaker county my mindset every year would be "let's give this a proper rattle early doors, and if doesn't pay off, I've my life back - but if it does, then there's fewer obstacles to me winning an AI". But truth be told I wouldn't know much about what it feels like to be a player!

By the way I'm not arguing that your points are wrong... but there's a greyness in the theories that I suppose we won't know if it's a whiter grey or a blacker grey until it's instigated.

[Stall the Bailer]

That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.

Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.

I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.

[OgraAnDun]

That's Championship ball. Sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Sometimes you make your own luck.

Connacht and Munster will always have the luck of the draw in your system.

I agree with keeping of Provincial championships. Previously the reward of winning it was entering the last 4 of the AI. Now the reward is entering the last 8 of the AI. Making it to last 16 would further reduce the reward of winning a Provincial championship and take out some of the injustice in the system.

The reward of winning a provincial championship is surely the medal in your back pocket and sense of achievement you get from succeeding in reaching your goals after months of hard work and bonding with your team. Getting into the provincial club championship isn't a 'reward' for winning a county championship in my opinion, knowing you are the best team in your county for that year and seeing your picture on the wall in the club is the reward, getting another crack at another trophy with the best teams from other counties is just the icing on the cake. Even if Down had qualified for the last sixteen I'd still be disappointed and pi**ed off if they managed to go out at the quarter final stage to any team, regardless of who it was against.